Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

[misskarne]

The questions are whether:

• WADA acts/rules based on proper scientific standards/evidence
• WADA punishes/sanctions uniformly and fairly, based on explicit criteria and processes
• WADA's standards are applied equally and fairly, both by themselves and by the IOC and member Federations

And we know the answers to these are

• No (look at the meldonium bullshit.)
• No (look at the way they booted Russia from the Paralympics on the flimsiest of evidence)
• No (look at the way they are specifically targeting one country at this point)

My question is why we are more concerned about the rights of the "clean" Russian athletes to compete rather than the rights of athletes from the rest world. Their right

1. to know that they are competing on a level playing field and that the host Country is not running a doping scam
2. to know when they win a competition they get their moment of glory on the Olympic podium at the games rather than 2 years later after the original "winner" is removed for doping.

Personally I don't care if the "clean" Russian athletes get to compete because I think that the rights of the athletes from other countries can only be guarantied if WADA rules are enforced on all countries and it seems Russia is and was unwilling to comply.

1. Oh dear, better take away hosting rights from China then, and no track competitions ever in the US again, at all!
2. That can happen to athletes from any country about athletes from any country. What about someone like Lance Armstrong? Don't you think the runners-up of those TdFs would rather have had their moment in Paris? But they don't get to have that moment because of an American doper.

According to Christine Brennan's article today, RUSADA has not tested or tested only once many top winter athletes this year. So I went and checked USADA's test history on US figure skaters and here's the link https://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/. Just choose from the pull-down menu for 2017 and figure skating and hit "Search." You'll see all the skaters' test history for this year, ex. Max was tested 2x, Jason 4x, Nathan 4x, Josh 1x, Adam 1x, Vincent 2x, etc. An interesting observation and thread drift: Does the testing frequency suggest USOC puts much more stock on Jason and Nathan for their potential Olympic selection?

The happiest, most wonderful thing that I have read in this thread is that Josh was tested by USADA this year. He was tested by USADA this year. That means he's in the pool and is considered a competitive athlete for their purposes this year.

But we know USADA is not exactly infallible - look at that bullshit one of their people was saying about Adelina last week and let's not even get started on that old chestnut of their doped-up track team (nobody with a brain believes for a second that Gatlin is clean). So I'm not sure why they're being held up as some kind of gold standard here?

Tossing an entire country from the Games for something that is still little more than unsubstantiated gossip would be unforgivable and the death of the Olympic movement. Tossing innocent athletes for the sins of a few is morally reprehensible. It cannot be allowed.

 

[Ka3sha]

Just for the record, in last few years years most of Russian athletes were tested by UKAD, not RUSADA

 

[missing]

My question is full of theoreticals, but it popped into my mind so I'm asking it.

If Russian athletes don't compete at the Olympics, would Russian judges remain on the figure skating judging panels?

For that matter, if non-Russian skaters are coached by Russians, would their coaches go to the Olympics?

 

[JanetB]

1. This a claim, not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The accuser has a bad track record, see my previous posts.

The Soviet Union, Russia and other countries that where part of the Soviet Union have had more athletes stripped of medals (71) than the rest of the world combined, most where stripped because of doping. So we know that Russia has a long history of trying to circumvent anti-doping rules. Other than Meldonium what bad track record does WADA have.

2. What about Russian athletes that were wrongly accused by WADA? They aren't people?

Like I said the hundreds if not thousands of non-Russian athletes that lost medals and placements because of long proven history of doping makes non-Russian athlete more important to me. The Russian athletes that were wrongly accused by WADA got their day in court and were exonerated but Beckie Scott will never get to stand on the top of podium in Salt Lake City game because of Russian doping.

3. How would you prove it? Or are you doing a blanket statement for the whole nationality. Hmm... sounds reminiscent of some time in history....

Before you start calling people names I would look at the history of Russia and doping.

 

[JanetB]

And we know the answers to these are
No (look at the meldonium bullshit.)

You are tarring WADA on one misstep, meldonium, yet you don’t seem to have any others. Funnily enough I can list 71 medals stripped from athletes from the area of the former Soviet Union.

No (look at the way they booted Russia from the Paralympics on the flimsiest of evidence)

I wouldn’t consider the evidence regarding the 2014 Russian doping scandal flimsiest

No (look at the way they are specifically targeting one country at this point)

Russia gets that attention because of their history

1. Oh dear, better take away hosting rights from China then, and no track competitions ever in the US again, at all!
2. That can happen to athletes from any country about athletes from any country. What about someone like Lance Armstrong? Don't you think the runners-up of those TdFs would rather have had their moment in Paris? But they don't get to have that moment because of an American doper.

Are China or the US government running anti-doping scheme? Russia gets the boot because they are the worst offender

 

[barbarafan]

I hope to see Russian skaters at the Olympics. This is just too much. They can not find out who cheated, so they ban everyone including those who don't cheat?

They are banning an entire country because the head of that country initiated and ran the doping program and now refuses to abide by the rules to stop this happening. Putin is one thing but the Russian people are a different entity. Can the sports federations not implore Putin to abide by the rulings so that the athletes do not suffer. He is the one in the wrong. There were athletes who were given drugs and never knew it. There were others who complied. If Putin has no intention of cleaning up his act then it is not fair to the rest of the athletes at the Olympics who have to compete against doped Athletes..I wish they could do it sport by sport and that way figure skating would be ok but seeing as it was state sponsored they want the entire country to pay.

 

[caseyedwards]

They are banning an entire country because the head of that country initiated and ran the doping program and now refuses to abide by the rules to stop this happening. Putin is one thing but the Russian people are a different entity. Can the sports federations not implore Putin to abide by the rulings so that the athletes do not suffer. He is the one in the wrong. There were athletes who were given drugs and never knew it. There were others who complied. If Putin has no intention of cleaning up his act then it is not fair to the rest of the athletes at the Olympics who have to compete against doped Athletes..I wish they could do it sport by sport and that way figure skating would be ok but seeing as it was state sponsored they want the entire country to pay.

In this case I don’t know of an athlete who didn’t know they were doping. The plan in Sochi depended on the athletes knowingly participating by sending their doping control form numbers. It’s true though that until putin admits what he did and orders all the sports officials and athletes to do the same Russia will be under constant threat!

All disputing anything rodchenkov says is totally useless. All rodchenkov says is gospel truth!

 

[rfisher]

To my knowledge, Russia has not been banned. Why are some of you insisting that it has? Does it delight you that much?

 

[caseyedwards]

To my knowledge, Russia has not been banned. Why are some of you insisting that it has? Does it delight you that much?

But it’s been written for months the banning will come in stages and continued suspension of rusada is part of the stages

 

[barbarafan]

To my knowledge, Russia has not been banned. Why are some of you insisting that it has? Does it delight you that much?

No they have not yet been banned and if they do it will totally ruin the figure skating portion of the Olympics as it would if any major player was not there for any reason. They have been threatened with being banned if they do not comply with the changes they were told to make. Ie: If they say we can cheat anytime we want and no one has the right to stop us from cheating. So it is all in Putin's hands. Will he man up or not?

 

[Coquelicot14]

The Soviet Union, Russia and other countries that where part of the Soviet Union have had more athletes stripped of medals (71) than the rest of the world combined, most where stripped because of doping. So we know that Russia has a long history....

News flash! 1991 was 26 years ago! Soviet Union and Russia are different countries! Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan,Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan are not Russia for a quarter of the century now.
The Soviet Union also had more athletes then any other country, of course the number will be larger.
Btw, did you substract the athletes that were cleared from your statistics? I think not.

They are banning an entire country because the head of that country initiated and ran the doping program and now refuses to abide by the rules to stop this happening. Putin is one thing but the Russian people are a different entity.

Again, no matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn't negate the fact that THIS IS SPECULATION, and was NOT proven. Stick to cold hard facts.

 

[barbarafan]

News flash! 1991 was 26 years ago! Soviet Union and Russia are different countries! Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan,Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan are not Russia for a quarter of the century now.
The Soviet Union also had more athletes then any other country, of course the number will be larger.
Btw, did you substract the athletes that were cleared from your statistics? I think not.




Again, no matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn't negate the fact that THIS IS SPECULATION, and was NOT proven. Stick to cold hard facts.

So are you saying there was no doping at Sochi by the Russians....the switch setup never happened? There was no coverup?

 

[Coquelicot14]

So are you saying there was no doping at Sochi by the Russians....the switch setup never happened? There was no coverup?

I am saying the so-called "state sponsored" doping is speculation.
This was never proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Many who claim it, also attacked Adelina in the same manner, but are now hiding in the bushes after being proven wrong.

Unlike people who make groundless blanket statements, I do not speculate. That is how innocent people get burned. I'd like to think we have evolved from the Middle Ages, although judging by this discussion, many have not.

 

[caseyedwards]

I am saying the so-called "state sponsored" doping is speculation.
This was never proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Many who claim it, also attacked Adelina in the same manner, but are now hiding in the bushes after being proven wrong.

Unlike people who make groundless blanket statements, I do not speculate. That is how innocent people get burned. I'd like to think we have evolved from the Middle Ages, although judging by this discussion, many have not.

All the people with power over Russia say state sponsored doping is proven fact that is beyond any dispute. This is what’s causing all the problems for Russia. Now the only thing that matters is Russia acknowledging everything rodchenkov says is true. Everything Mclaren says is true. Everything wada says is true.

 

[Coquelicot14]

All the people with power over Russia say state sponsored doping is proven fact that is beyond any dispute. This is what’s causing all the problems for Russia. Now the only thing that matters is Russia acknowledging everything rodchenkov says is true. Everything Mclaren says is true. Everything wada says is true.

Right..... no proof needed if some shady character (I suggest you look up Rodchenkov, and his dopey wife) and Wada rep with an agenda. We will just take their word for it. Again, no solid proof was ever provided.

 

[barbarafan]

All the people with power over Russia say state sponsored doping is proven fact that is beyond any dispute. This is what’s causing all the problems for Russia. Now the only thing that matters is Russia acknowledging everything rodchenkov says is true. Everything Mclaren says is true. Everything wada says is true.

There are also testing rules that Russia needs to conform to which they have so far refused to do.

 

[barbarafan]

Right..... no proof needed if some shady character (I suggest you look up Rodchenkov, and his dopey wife) and Wada rep with an agenda. We will just take their word for it. Again, no solid proof was ever provided.

I suggest you look up Putin and his KGB background and all the murders he has committed.

 

[Coquelicot14]

That emotional outburst is your proof?

 

[Vash01]

And we know the answers to these are

• No (look at the meldonium bullshit.)
• No (look at the way they booted Russia from the Paralympics on the flimsiest of evidence)
• No (look at the way they are specifically targeting one country at this point)

1. Oh dear, better take away hosting rights from China then, and no track competitions ever in the US again, at all!
2. That can happen to athletes from any country about athletes from any country. What about someone like Lance Armstrong? Don't you think the runners-up of those TdFs would rather have had their moment in Paris? But they don't get to have that moment because of an American doper.



The happiest, most wonderful thing that I have read in this thread is that Josh was tested by USADA this year. He was tested by USADA this year. That means he's in the pool and is considered a competitive athlete for their purposes this year.

But we know USADA is not exactly infallible - look at that bullshit one of their people was saying about Adelina last week and let's not even get started on that old chestnut of their doped-up track team (nobody with a brain believes for a second that Gatlin is clean). So I'm not sure why they're being held up as some kind of gold standard here?

Tossing an entire country from the Games for something that is still little more than unsubstantiated gossip would be unforgivable and the death of the Olympic movement. Tossing innocent athletes for the sins of a few is morally reprehensible. It cannot be allowed.

The first thoughts that came to my mind were-

Lance Armstrong- it's not like those accusing Russia are sneaky clean themselves

China (and East Germany in the past) is known to use illegal means for pushing their athletes- doping, false birth dates (to allow very young gymnasts to compete when they were not age eligible).

I am sure more can be found from other countries but the focus in this case seems to be on Russia- disqualifying them by any means possible while other countries can get away with anything. That's why I find this whole thing disgusting.

The Olympics were meant to bring the world together through sports. Unfortunately the athletes are being used as pawns, but right now for just one country.

 

[Vash01]

I suggest you look up Putin and his KGB background and all the murders he has committed.

Anyone that reads the PI forum knows what I think of Putin. I even visited the KGB museum in Vilnius, Lithuania, and was horrified by it. I am not supporting Putin here. I am supporting the athletes who are innocent.

 

[barbarafan]

Anyone that reads the PI forum knows what I think of Putin. I even visited the KGB museum in Vilnius, Lithuania, and was horrified by it. I am not supporting Putin here. I am supporting the athletes who are innocent.

This was in response to Coquelicot14 who suggested I look up the background of WADA and Rodchenkov. The point is Putin has to be stopped to make the games fair. It is Putin who has the power to make this right so he should do so. If he refuses then I don't think the IOC has any choice. So why is a dictator/murderer like Putin in power...pls remind me.

 

[Coquelicot14]

Barbarafan, push your political agenda elsewhere. You are diverting the conversation.
You have still not provided me with any solid proof of the "state sponsored" doping. No one has.
Rodchenkov was brought up due to his credibility, or rather lack of thereof. When you make accusations, it helps that you are not a sketchy character....

 

[barbarafan]

Barbarafan, push your political agenda elsewhere. You are diverting the conversation.
You have still not provided me with any solid proof of the "state sponsored" doping. No one has.
Rodchenkov was brought up due to his credibility, or rather lack of thereof. When you make accusations, it helps that you are not a sketchy character....

Did you not read the other thread on the doping? Are you drinking the Kool-Aid? Rodchenkov came forward not because he is a pillar of integrity (or he would have refused to obey his orders to falsify results) but because he knew he would be murdered as part of the coverup. Do you really think there is anything going on in Russia that Putin is not aware of?

 

[Coquelicot14]

Did you not read the other thread on the doping? Are you drinking the Kool-Aid? Rodchenkov came forward not because he is a pillar of integrity (or he would have refused to obey his orders to falsify results) but because he knew he would be murdered as part of the coverup. Do you really think there is anything going on in Russia that Putin is not aware of?

The Kool aid seems to be your drug of choice judging from your posts, since none of them posted anything other than suppositions, guesses and fan fiction.
I asked for solid, tangible proof, evidence, not hearsay, and again got nothing....
If you had some, you wouldn't be wasting time with this nonsense.

 

[DDNatalia]

The odds of this happening, just seem so remote. No?

 

[Meoima]

The thing is if we don’t have obvious documents or records of the doping program, I don’t understand how we can blame all the skaters from a certain country to be taking advantage of a state doping programs.

 

[AxelAnnie]

The thing is if we don’t have obvious documents or records of the doping program, I don’t understand how we can blame all the skaters from a certain country to be taking advantage of a state doping programs.

I am not sure who the WE is. The issues..IThink are simple.
1. Russia has had a wide ranging doping program.
2. Russia has refused to comply with the rules.

ALL DONE.

 

[Aerobicidal]

"This" "whole" "issue" "outrages" "me"!!!

 

[WanderlustTO]

I feel sorry for athletes who have worked hard and deserve to compete in the games. However, these problems have been brought about by the Russian government itself. I would say the emotional side of me is on the side of allowing the athletes to compete however possible.

I'll be probably controversial and say that if the IOC wants to lower the boom, it needs to do it earlier than this - and just make Russia live with the consequences for a few years. It's not reasonable, imo, to be doing this months before the Olympics.

 

[Japanfan]

I don't care about casual fans, I care about fairness. The best athletes must win, not Lesser ones who won only because the best were not allowed to compete for political reasons. It seems you are ok with unfairness as long as skaters from your country win. I want the best athlete to win, regardless of nationality.

Where did you get that idea? And for the record, the skaters I root for to win are often not from my country. For example, I've been a fan of Chinese pairs for year and will root for Sui and Han to earn gold, not Duhamel and Redford.

I'm actually not okay with unfairness. But as a FS fan, I expect a certain amount of it to always exist. For example, skaters from countries with powerful federations get promoted much better and more easily than skaters from poor, less powerful countries.

All I said was that other athletes would step up to the plate, as sometimes happens when top-ranked skaters move on from the amateur ranks. The players in the battle for medals would change a bit.

Do you disagree with that?

If the Russian ladies are banned, I would not consider the winner a true winner.

Neither would I. The absence of Russian athletes from the Winter Games would cast a very large shadow over them.

But figure skaters are usually called upon to do their best, regardless of the circumstances. They train for that.

Whoever won the gold medal would be the gold medal winner, to state the obvious. Would you expect that individual to refuse the gold medal, knowing it really belonged to Med?

That might be gracious, and a sign of solidarity with Russian athletes. But I really don't think it is fair to expect that from a young woman who is competing under whatever circumstances exist, just as she's been trained to do.

I have no desire to be a fan of a dirty political sport.

Arguably you already are, as evidenced by the 2002 Pairs Gold Medal scandal, the toe-tapping incident that preceded it, and various statements made by those involved in the sport over the years.