The Dance Hall 13: When You Dance on the Ice and Your Feet Twizzle Twice, That's Amore

[Vagabond]

Wasn't there are lot of buzz about P&C after they won silver at Junior Worlds?

They went from silver at Junior Worlds to thirteenth at Worlds. No one would have predicted that they would be the World Champions the following season, and yet they were.

 

[Tak]

Wasn't there are lot of buzz about P&C after they won silver at Junior Worlds? One of thing about the ice dance rules this quad, I think (in the good/bad old days) they favour more established couples who come across as having more "mature" presentation even if there are younger teams competing who are technically better.

I think Im remembering this correctly - but in that junior worlds S/B only won [IMO] because P/C had to stop their program and then restart from that spot. I cant remember what happened - shoelace? cramp? something else? - but there was some interruption in their program for some reason.

Without that problem, Im absolutely sure they would have won gold. They were so much the better team, even in juniors.

 

[Peepsquick]

I think Im remembering this correctly - but in that junior worlds S/B only won [IMO] because P/C had to stop their program and then restart from that spot. I cant remember what happened - shoelace? cramp? something else? - but there was some interruption in their program for some reason.

Without that problem, Im absolutely sure they would have won gold. They were so much the better team, even in juniors.

Gabi's ankle was wrapped and she was in a lot of pain.

 

[chantilly]

Listen I really like LaLa and I think the argument for dumping is really more appropriate regarding their placement at last year's worlds.
I'm just not a fan of their RD this year, although they do skate it well.
But they had a major error at their first GP and that cost them the GP final spot.

Don't get me wrong. I'm seriously side eyeing the judging at Finlandia.
It makes no sense that teams who are podium threats should be getting the scores they're being given.

I do think G/P get a little more targeted than some.
But they did make errors at both of last years GP's and this years.
And I don't think they are doing themselves any favours with their program choices this year.

They always seem to miss the mark when it matters most. Their RD and FD last year were great.

As for Z/K I see amazing improvement from them this season.
They execute their elements really well.
And their programs are well choreographed.
I think they even should have received some higher GOE's on their lifts in particular.

FB/C are simply excellent.
I am a bit grumpy that their material is too reminiscent of his programs with Gabi. But that's simply not fair to punish them for it.

As for R/A. They were ready early, have great programs and also IMO have improved, especially with confidence.
But I think they're likely maxed out for points.
I don't think that is true for the rest of the teams.

 

[her grace]

I have been pondering if Lajoie/Lagha are the new Guignard/Fabbri: technically very proficient but with less connection between the partners and less showy performance style compared to other teams.

 

[PRlady]

I have been pondering if Lajoie/Lagha are the new Guignard/Fabbri: technically very proficient but with less connection between the partners and less showy performance style compared to other teams.

I was not a fan for a long time because their affect was so mismatched. Zach loosened up a bit and Marjorie found other affects than perky, and of course their technique is excellent. They sure need better material than this year’s, that’s for sure.

We will see what happens when they are Canada #1. They’ve been stuck behind a team not as technically accomplished as they are for a long time.

 

[puglover]

I have been pondering if Lajoie/Lagha are the new Guignard/Fabbri: technically very proficient but with less connection between the partners and less showy performance style compared to other teams.

Not to me. I saw Marjorie as the happy, easy going, fun one and Zach as the serious, classically trained musician, but after their Rio program I threw that thinking out. Perhaps the fact that they have been around longer, were junior world champions, it is harder to have a big impact. Young love isn't their vibe. They are fast and exciting and with the right vehicle I think they will be fine.

 

[chantilly]

For me Lala do lack a bit of connection or at least selling that element to their skating.

However they have grown so much in the last two years in that regard.
And quite frankly I think they have more connection than G\F which baffles me since they are a couple.

I also think technically Lala have more speed and finer execution in general.
G/F May be great technical skaters, but I also feel they have regressed in every way in the last few years, including technically.

They just don't seem to have the programs or the refinements or the connection or the technical or the performance or the packaging all at once which is everything that they need to win. That's kind of who they are as a team.

I mean I've never been their biggest fan but I don't think my POV is far off the mark.

 

[Wyliefan]

For me Lala do lack a bit of connection or at least selling that element to their skating.

However they have grown so much in the last two years in that regard.

They still have a very long way to go.

 

[her grace]

I also think technically Lala have more speed and finer execution in general.
G/F May be great technical skaters, but I also feel they have regressed in every way in the last few years, including technically.

I meant the comparison to be G/F at their prime.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I'll die on the hill that La/La should have medalled at 2024 Worlds (or at least finished 2nd in the RD). Comparing both teams on their performance level at the event, I don't think La/La are another Gui/Fab. La/La do have a connection problem, although that's improving. Because they're short and still very "young" looking, I think they don't come across as "mature" as the top teams (which is why I think their RD costumes this year are a huge miss). I also think that IAM doesn't really know what to do with them. Supposedly they want to skate to one of Zach's compositions sometime - I really hope this happens because I bet we'd see a whole different side to them.

 

[skategal]

I'll die on the hill that La/La should have medalled at 2024 Worlds (or at least finished 2nd in the RD). Comparing both teams on their performance level at the event, I don't think La/La are another Gui/Fab. La/La do have a connection problem, although that's improving. Because they're short and still very "young" looking, I think they don't come across as "mature" as the top teams (which is why I think their RD costumes this year are a huge miss). I also think that IAM doesn't really know what to do with them. Supposedly they want to skate to one of Zach's compositions sometime - I really hope this happens because I bet we'd see a whole different side to them.

Sometimes they remind me a bit of a young Grishuk/Platov. Technically excellent but struggling to find their niche.

Hopefully they won't bring the same off-ice drama as Grishuk/Platov...

 

[Kateri]

ISU to undertake a review of the Finlandia dance event. https://anythinggoe.com/finlandia-trophy-is-over-the-ice-dance-controversy-is-not/

 

[Wyliefan]

Wow, I didn't think they'd do it.

 

[marbri]

ISU to undertake a review of the Finlandia dance event. https://anythinggoe.com/finlandia-trophy-is-over-the-ice-dance-controversy-is-not/

They should take a peek at SA while there are there as well. Same guy in charge.

 

[Kateri]

Wow, I didn't think they'd do it.

My first reaction is obviously that it's gonna be a purely superficial "ok guys we checked, it's fine, shut up", because changing the scores would be unprecedented, and cause endless drama, going forwards. But even just doing a review at all seems unprecedented. So, hmm. Interesting times.

 

[skategal]

I think it takes alot for athletes to speak up and call it out especially when things like missed calls and other errors happen regularly with little pushback.

We haven't seen athletes (World and Olympic Medalists) speak out like they are this season in years so it must be pretty bad for them to do so.

 

[Karen-W]

ISU to undertake a review of the Finlandia dance event. https://anythinggoe.com/finlandia-trophy-is-over-the-ice-dance-controversy-is-not/

This right here is why it is hard to take AnythingGOEs seriously...

We simply don’t know what agenda, if any, may have motivated Rettstatt and the other panel members. Rettstatt did not respond to a request for comment from AnythingGOEs, because of the above-mentioned ISU review.

This is editorializing and has no place in a news story. An impartial news article would have structured the sentence differently, taking themselves out of the story and they also do not KNOW the reason Rettstatt did not respond to their request for comment. A neutral paragraph would have read along the following lines:

"There is no evidence of any agenda motivating Rettstatt and the other panel members, despite the public outcry and insinuations from informed fans. Rettstatt did not respond to a request for comment from AnythingGOEs."

Also - why include this section without outlining if there were any controversies surrounding the technical panels' calling of those events? Plus, they didn't even catch the fact that Molina was the TC at this season's Cup of China. This is such shoddy journalism that could have done with a strict word count from an old-fashioned news editor.

The Technical Committee is in charge of assigning officials to the technical panel at ISU events (these assignments have to be approved by the ISU President). In essence, Rettstatt assigned himself to the events. In the last eight seasons, Rettstatt has been referee or technical controller for at least one Grand Prix event per season. He has also been technical controller at several recent European Championships and World Junior Championships. His fellow Committee members also continue to serve as officials; Hilary Selby was technical controller at the World Championship dance events in 2025, 2024 and 2022; In 2025, Ingrid-Charlotte Wolter was technical controller at Europeans and David Molina was technical controller at Four Continents.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Looking at Finlandia in isolation is an easy way to say, “Hey, we’ve talked to everyone about a reset going forward.” (But the placements were correct, and one change to Kolesnik’s twizzles wouldn’t have changed the GPF standings, and none of these people can be on the Olympic tech panel, the only place people outside baseball will be watching, so [blah, blah, blah, performative, performative, performative.])

 

[clairecloutier]

nm

 

[Tinycities]

They also have a section on how the calls benefited Zingas and Kolesnik. It’s a week till the GPF. Are they going to be pulled from qualifying if something is found?

For someone like Emilea who’s said she suffers from imposter syndrome in ice dance, this probably isn’t going to help.

 

[puglover]

I know the timing on all of this is terrible and it is easy to criticize the critics but much of this is coming from those who truly love ice dance, including some skaters themselves, and anyone familiar with the sport know how scary it is for them to speak up. It is challenging because everyone has personal likes and dislikes but anyone who wants to really get a sense of what the big stink is should listen to the detailed breakdowns done by Tony and Thomas. I have often thought I just don't have enough knowledge to understand all the calls in ice dance - but I have found that is not really true - when well explained I can get it more then I ever thought I could.

 

[Debbie S]

The scores and GPF qualifications aren't going to change at this point. The rules wouldn't even allow it. Scores are final when an event ends.

If AnthingGOEs wants to be seen as a professional media outlet, this article does nothing to help their reputation. The suggestion that Rettstatt was cooking the books for Z/K and that there was something shady in previous events where IDTC members served on tech panels is click-bait gossip.

Z/K are not at fault for LaLa not making the GPF, LaLa made a major mistake in the RD at SC and also were a bit unlucky in that they also had to face R/A in their home event. But that's sport. IMO, a big question this fall has been the overscoring of R/A.

Z/K got lower scores/levels at Finlandia than they did at CoC, where Rettstatt was nowhere near the panel. Z/K are in the same position as the others who got lower scores at Finlandia and complained, but notice that Z/K didn't. B/c scores do vary and skaters know from the time they start testing their Pre-Preliminary Skating Skills that some judges are tougher than others. Pointing fingers at Z/K and Shpilband shows clear bias and lack of reasoning.

And the suggestion that Rettstatt was cooking the books for C/B at SA falls apart when you look at the protocols and see that with the exception of Evan's 1-foot in the FD, their levels were no higher than anyone else's.

That being said, I do think it's a good idea to review the choreo step call for FB/C and the base twizzle call for Gil/P, for the purpose of clarifying judging standards for skaters and coaches and developing consistent guidelines. Skaters and coaches deserve that and I agree with Piper that the IDTC needs to set a clear direction for the sport and have that reflected in the judging.

As we have discussed here, the real problem with the pattern step in the RD this season is the 120 bpm req, which, as skaters and knowledgeable commentators have noted, makes it very difficult to achieve the desired edge quality in the turns. And the tempo also limits the music skaters could choose and eliminates a lot of great 90s music.

 

[her grace]

Z/K didn’t beat anyone they shouldn’t have at both their events. They didn’t rob anyone. Now R/A, on the other hand . . . .

 

[Karen-W]

Bringing this over from the Finlandia FD pbp thread... Here are two pretty straightforward tables that lay out the tech panel calling trends over the course of the GP:

RD Twizzles	GPdF​	CoC​	SCI​	NHK​	SkAm​	Finlandia​
No Level		1​				1
Base Level		1​	1​			1
L1			1
L2		2​		2​	1	4
L3	2​		1​	2​	2​	4
L4	18​	16​	17​	16​	17​	10​
RD Pattern Step	GPdF​	CoC​	SCI​	NHK​	SkAm​	Finlandia​
Base Level					3	1
L1	2​	2​	3​	5​	5​	5​
L2	5​	6​	7​	5​	2​	4​
L3	3​	2​
L4
RD Midline Step	GPdF​	CoC​	SCI​	NHK​	SkAm​	Finlandia​
Base Level
L1	3​	4​	3​	5​	14​	16​
L2	10​	8​	10​	11​	6​	4​
L3	7​	8​	7​	4​
L4

FD Twizzles	GPdF​	CoC​	SCI​	NHK​	SkAm​	Finlandia​
No Level
Base Level
L1		1
L2	2​	2​	1​	6​	4
L3	3​	1​	8​	1​	5​	4​
L4	17​	14​	10​	18​	9​	12​
FD One-Foot Step	GPdF​	CoC​	SCI​	NHK​	SkAm​	Finlandia​
Base Level
L1	2​	1​	2​	4​	7​	11​
L2	12​	8​	11​	13​	12​	9​
L3	6​	9​	7​	3​	1​
L4
FD Di/Mi/Ci/Se Step	GPdF​	CoC​	SCI​	NHK​	SkAm​	Finlandia​
Base Level
L1	1​	2​	6​	4​	7​	14​
L2	9​	7​	9​	9​	12​	6​
L3	10​	9​	5​	7​	1​

With regard to the RD pattern step calling - I'd argue that there was a general tightening that began AFTER Cup of China with no L3 calls at either SCI or NHK, then aggressively accelerating at SkAm & Finlandia. And the RD midline step sequence - clearly the tech panels tightened up for the 2nd half of the GP. Similarly, in the FD, the One-Foot calls tightened after SCI with only 3 Level 3 calls at NHK.

Looking at Finlandia in isolation or even just at SkAm and Finlandia where Rettstatt was the TC doesn't tell the full story of the tech panel calling over the course of the GP and others noted prior to SkAm that the calling HAD become stricter after the first two GPs. The data bears this out, IMO, but everyone's free to form their own opinions.

 

[Andrea82]

CTES watch update -

One Challenger (Tallinn Trophy) and two B events (Santa Claus Cup, Bosphorus Cup) this weekend are the last dance competitions ahead of the Euros entry deadline.

Ivanitskiy/Sperry (need +1.78) will be in Istanbul aiming for the third Finnish spot as well as Hairsine/Surenkov-Gultchev making their debut for Bulgaria.

Bosphorus Cup has had generous panels the last few years so they'll be joined by lots of teams hunting for Worlds minimums: all four Polish teams (Dovhal/Kulesza are the nearest - need +0.25), PinPog (need +0.20 - though Larson/Kapran already have minimums for UKR), Verhaegh/van Geffen (NED - need +0.42), Kudryavtseva/Karankevich (CYP - need +1.41), Pallu Neves/Panesar (BRA - need +4.93), Nauryzova/Datiev (KAZ - need +6.57), Kazakova/Kasinskij (GEO - need +8.34) and the Straubs (AUT - need +10.84).

In Budapest there's no-one whose country can't already fill it's Euros/4CC spots, but we've got both AZE teams (Weatherby/Kolosovskyi need +3.16 for Worlds, Ritter/Brykalov need +3.89) and Shilling/Baeten (BEL - need +10.89 for Worlds). Ziobrowska/Judd (ROU) are on the entry list but he's on IPS so I guess they're done.

Juniors in action this weekend who are only a few points off the Junior Worlds minimums include the Amaro Letestu twins (only 0.22 off becoming Portugal's first ever championship competitors!), Epps/Gilman (need +1.27) and Gallix/Egyed-Zsigmond, who recently switched from France to Hungary (need +2.10).

Bosphorus Cup have Janet Coton (Great Britain), Christian Nuechtern (Germany) and Tomas Kika (Slovakia) as callers
Judges from Turkey, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Poland and Italy.
Santa Claus Cup have Akos Pethes (Hungary), Jana Vanova (Slovakia) and Maria Tumanovskaya (Ukraine) in the tech panel for Seniors.
Judges from Hungary (2 judges), Ukraine, Czechia, Azerbaijan, USA
Juniors have Judy Blumberg instead of Tumanovskaya.
Judges: Austria, Hungary, USA, Azerbaijan and Ukraine

 

[Karen-W]

CTES watch update -

One Challenger (Tallinn Trophy) and two B events (Santa Claus Cup, Bosphorus Cup) this weekend are the last dance competitions ahead of the Euros entry deadline.

Euros entry deadline is Dec 16, so Golden Spin is the last competition to get the CTES mins.

 

[Marta24]

Euros entry deadline is Dec 16, so Golden Spin is the last competition to get the CTES mins.

So, this means definitely no Euros for Tali/Lafornara if they WD again?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Dance just cracks me up because people are like Marjorie and Zach… They are the first alternates, they haven’t been dumped on, and I’m not even a fan of them.

In singles we call this normal, except with the placements being even more diverse. If Amber were to go into 10th Pl., I’m not gonna say the judges have dumped on her, she just went to tenth place this time around lol but the pecking order in ice dance is so prevalent.

 

[Marta24]

I don't expect much to come out of this investigation, but I hope that the ISU takes the criticism seriously to adjust the technical rules for the next quad. The RD is unwatchable. The technical requirements compared to the former Short Dance format are ridiculous and I don't think I have ever detested any element more than the Choreo Step Sequence. Ice Dance is my favorite discipline and to see what Rettstatt has done to it is absolutely terrible.

I understand that skaters and coaches are so fed up with the decisions the IDTC has made for this quad. I can only hope that better things are coming for them.