Unpopular Opinions

[On My Own]

I do want to say, it's only for that particular segment of the dance. To judge fully, we'd need to watch the entire videos. Just putting that out there, because this partial info thing keeps happening on twitter.

I have no real input on D/W vs V/M in 2014 as such - I just think the V/M SD is the best one ever, the one time I thought there was dance quality to them, and paired with their power of skating and absolute control it really was magical. (So I guess I'd give a significant lead in PCS to them vs the others in that SD, but that's all I really have an opinion on)

 

[VGThuy]

Virtue/Moir really did have the best SD that season. They captured the spirit of the rhythm perfectly and their performance matched the content perfectly.

 

[chantilly]

Virtue/Moir really did have the best SD that season. They captured the spirit of the rhythm perfectly and their performance matched the content perfectly.

Agreed. I really didn’t have any issue with D/W winning the free. And the competition over all( although after seeing that video above, D/W were definitely the bottom of that pack in the steps comparison in the RD), it was a much better program. V/M 2014 FD sucked. No other way to say it.
But I do think V/M were lowballed on PCS. One judge gave them a plus 1 on the steps. Sorry no.

 

[On My Own]

I can't find the SD on YouTube, so in case that's not just my problem, I found this on bilibili: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1jW411t7RF/

Truly stunning. I wish I could bring myself to like the rest of their work.

 

[Bigbird]

I am not motivated to rewatch Dav/Whi videos at all. I feel these types of teams were technically proficient and the judges lowballed the artistic teams like P/C and V/M for reasons I just still cannot understand.

 

[Wyliefan]

I unashamedly, unironically love Orihara/Pirinen's Chorus Line FD. It's so different and fun and so them.

 

[VGThuy]

I unashamedly, unironically love Orihara/Pirinen's Chorus Line FD. It's so different and fun and so them.

I’m so glad the Finnish ice dance school is gaining traction. I don’t like it when one school dominates. I think ice dance is best where there are multiple centers can produce challengers for medals or are at least getting there.

 

[kwanette]

I unashamedly, unironically love Orihara/Pirinen's Chorus Line FD. It's so different and fun and so them.

Same!

 

[kwanette]

I am not motivated to rewatch Dav/Whi videos at all. I feel these types of teams were technically proficient and the judges lowballed the artistic teams like P/C and V/M for reasons I just still cannot understand.

Were P/C a factor in competition w D/W?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I unashamedly, unironically love Orihara/Pirinen's Chorus Line FD. It's so different and fun and so them.

I had to look to see what thread we were in, why is this an unpopular opinion? It’s a fantastic program.

The only thing that can make this program better is if they use that one song that’s kind of raunchy. Lol.

 

[Wyliefan]

I had to look to see what thread we were in, why is this an unpopular opinion?

I saw some less-than-enthusiastic reactions.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I saw some less-than-enthusiastic reactions.

For real? They Cray.

 

[Wyliefan]

Okay, fellow fans of Isabeau's green dress, represent! I know there are some of you, I saw you in the PBP thread last night!

 

[bladesofgorey]

I think knee slides shouldn't count as a feature. They are tearing skaters' knees up and most look like awkward mistakes anyway.

 

[Sparks]

Ban cartwheels, touching the boards, and backflips

 

[gkelly]

I think knee slides shouldn't count as a feature. They are tearing skaters' knees up and most look like awkward mistakes anyway.

They don't. At least not in step sequences (or choreographic sequences, or choreographic character sequence in dance, which don't have levels/features). They're allowed, but not rewarded in base value.

(How the judges reflect them in GOEs and PCS is up to the individual judges.)

Sometimes they can count as a difficult entry or exit of a spin, so in that sense, yes, they would be features for the spins.

In dance, there is an optional "choreographic sliding movement" -- that's a whole element of its own, not a feature for a different kind of element.

 

[bladesofgorey]

They don't. At least not in step sequences (or choreographic sequences, or choreographic character sequence in dance, which don't have levels/features). They're allowed, but not rewarded in base value.

(How the judges reflect them in GOEs and PCS is up to the individual judges.)

Sometimes they can count as a difficult entry or exit of a spin, so in that sense, yes, they would be features for the spins.

In dance, there is an optional "choreographic sliding movement" -- that's a whole element of its own, not a feature for a different kind of element.

Yup, was referring to spin exits.

 

[Allskate]

Okay, fellow fans of Isabeau's green dress, represent! I know there are some of you, I saw you in the PBP thread last night!

Sooo, it's a popular opinion that her long program dress is really nice?

Then I will voice my unpopular opinion and say that I really don't like it. When I was watching Smart and Dieck, I was wishing that Madison Chock would design a dress for Isabeau for her long program. I don't mean that I want her to design a dress just like Olivia's. I want something that would suit Isabeau and the feel of her long program. And something that isn't garish and that doesn't look like a staple gun was used to staple on bits of fabric (again!). Something flattering and not distracting.

 

[Wyliefan]

Sooo, it's a popular opinion that her long program dress is really nice?

If it were a popular opinion, I wouldn't have put it here. I've heard it slammed all season, which is why I was glad to see fellow fans.

 

[bardtoob]

I think if figure skating is going to add lyrics, aerials, etc. Then they might as well add props, poles, and suspension cables to twirl from and make it a full cirque du soleil experience.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Ban cartwheels, touching the boards, and backflips

And blowing kisses

 

[orbitz]

I don't want to see any skater on competitive ice skating to "feel sorry/pity for me" music after some having gone through some personal issues. Leave it off ice or for exhibitions, please.

 

[Sparks]

If it were a popular opinion, I wouldn't have put it here. I've heard it slammed all season, which is why I was glad to see fellow fans.

I think it could be edited a bit. I like her program, especially the music

 

[Private Citizen]

Sometimes they can count as a difficult entry or exit of a spin, so in that sense, yes, they would be features for the spins.

Are they really difficult, though? It’s all beyond my skill level, but it seems like we go from “one not actually difficult yet ugly” feature to another. First it was the illusion entry. Then that was devalued. Then the illusion exit. Devalued. Now these knee slides, which have been around but seem to be becoming more prevalent. I agree with the OP that they look like mistakes, and I’m not convinced they’re difficult either.

 

[On My Own]

Are they really difficult, though? It’s all beyond my skill level, but it seems like we go from “one not actually difficult yet ugly” feature to another. First it was the illusion entry. Then that was devalued. Then the illusion exit. Devalued. Now these knee slides, which have been around but seem to be becoming more prevalent. I agree with the OP that they look like mistakes, and I’m not convinced they’re difficult either.

gkelly will nitpick me to death and perhaps contact the FBI to have me assassinated, but I don't think the illusion entry is any good as a "difficult entry". Many times, it looks more like the skater did the illusion to torque themselves into the spin.

I also don't think the knee slide exits are "difficult". I'm not sure what I'd call 'difficult' exit for a spin, unless it's one of those few times we've seen a 3S done straight off a spin (which would double as an unexpected entry to the sal). A well controlled exit is probably much more difficult to do than some of these 'difficult' exits.

I've said it before, but I want some features of the spins to be double counted - like "difficult change of position". Change of edge on positions like the Biellmann also deserve to be double counted.

 

[gkelly]

gkelly will nitpick me to death and perhaps contact the FBI to have me assassinated, but I don't think the illusion entry is any good as a "difficult entry". Many times, it looks more like the skater did the illusion to torque themselves into the spin.

Lock your doors -- the assassins are on their way.

I also don't think the knee slide exits are "difficult". I'm not sure what I'd call 'difficult' exit for a spin, unless it's one of those few times we've seen a 3S done straight off a spin (which would double as an unexpected entry to the sal). A well controlled exit is probably much more difficult to do than some of these 'difficult' exits.

What I'm especially impressed by are spin exits that check out onto a controlled edge and then add other turns or edge work on the same foot. Definitely more difficult than just holding the controlled edge for a second or two before stepping to the next move, and also more skating skill-based than knee slides or flexibility moves on simple edges (which are still more difficult than simple edges alone).

Another risk of knee slides as spin exits at the end of a program is that if the skater has stopped moving any muscles by the time the time limit is reached but the still body is still sliding across the ice, they can get a time deduction.

I've said it before, but I want some features of the spins to be double counted - like "difficult change of position". Change of edge on positions like the Biellmann also deserve to be double counted.

Well, a difficult change of position in which one of the positions also counts as a difficult position earns two features*, as does change of edge in a difficult position.

(*Or three features if both positions before and after the change are difficult, in a combo spin with no change of foot. But skaters rarely plan a CoSp or FCoSp any more since a CCoSp or FCCoSp have higher base values, and the CCoSp is required in the short program.)

Some difficult positions are more difficult than others, and similarly change of edge in some positions is more difficult than in others. And some difficult entrances or exits are more difficult than others. Basically, the IJS says "this counts as a difficult feature" and then realizes that some ways of meeting "this" are not particularly difficult, so they remove that option from the list of features entirely or they specify that the feature only counts in some positions but not others.

Meanwhile, change of edge in simple upright spins and change of direction with a change of foot in simple upright spins no longer count as features at all.

Long ago at the very beginning of IJS, I once saw a skater execute a change of direction in an upright spin all on one foot. It wasn't during competition though. Now that is something I would have loved to count as a double feature! Too difficult even for that skater, so I never saw it again from him or anyone else. If the reward had been commensurate, we probably would have.

With difficult entries/exits, skaters put out options that they can do that are at least slightly harder than not doing them, and then the tech panel community needs to come to consensus about whether those options really are difficult enough to be rewarded. Which can lead to some inconsistency between panels at first. And then changes in the guidelines to specify what does or doesn't count. E.g., illusions no longer count as difficult entries/exits and don't count as difficult variations unless they achieve at least 135-degree split.

 

[On My Own]

What I'm especially impressed by are spin exits that check out onto a controlled edge and then add other turns or edge work on the same foot. Definitely more difficult than just holding the controlled edge for a second or two before stepping to the next move, and also more skating skill-based than knee slides or flexibility moves on simple edges (which are still more difficult than simple edges alone).

Well I guess I'd like to at least see the first option. The rest just doesn't look good and is of doubtful difficulty (yes of course slides are harder than just simple edges out, but still).

Well, a difficult change of position in which one of the positions also counts as a difficult position earns two features*, as does change of edge in a difficult position.

Right, but what I mean is Biellmann: 1 feature, COE on that Biellmann: 2 features. So just a COE Biellmann would count as 3 features. Which would shorten a spin significantly (give more time for other things in the program), and give commensurate reward for the difficulty (and so incentivize difficulty like that to be attempted) IMO.

Long ago at the very beginning of IJS, I once saw a skater execute a change of direction in an upright spin all on one foot. It wasn't during competition though. Now that is something I would have loved to count as a double feature! Too difficult even for that skater, so I never saw it again from him or anyone else. If the reward had been commensurate, we probably would have.

If you have a video, I'd love to see! If it looked like what I think you're saying, I think it deserved all 4 levels just for that

And yeah, difficult things like this are never going to look good, but it's why it should at least count for more level features. The aesthetic appeal can go to GOE/PCS, but there ends up being no incentive if there's only 1 level for each feature, and then you don't get high GOE/PCS credit for it either because it's difficult to make it look any good.

Same thing I've thought about +3Lo combos, too, it's too difficult to rotate them, and it's difficult to execute them with the same quality as +3T combos, so they get disincentivized if you're not going to give them extra credit in terms of BV (more than the advantage someone like Zagitova could gain for her 7 triple long program and her short program at PyeongChang - of course there's still some. Just should be more).

 

[gkelly]

If you have a video, I'd love to see! If it looked like what I think you're saying, I think it deserved all 4 levels just for that

I don't have a video of that skater executing it, because it wasn't an occasion that would have been videoed.

The closest I could find is this:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

The example I'm thinking of was more sustained tighter upright spins (i.e., more modern-style scratch and back scratch, I don't remember which came first), with less ice covered on the change of edge to change direction.

Also, in searching for this example I discovered that Schafer used to spin on his toepicks in a number of different positions. He could earn features this year with those variations.

In addition to the upright spin in the other clip and in the beginning of this one, see also the spins starting 3:35 in this compilation:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Sylvia]

^^^ This is useful info - maybe you could bump up this thread and continue in there? ETA - thanks @gkelly for copying over your 2 posts above into this one:

Spin Features Thread

Continued from here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/isu-communication-2558-season-2023-24-single-pair-skating-levels-of-difficulty-guidelines-for-marking-goe-pcs.110680/ I hope to see some of the requests for the features answered here (like @vu2019 was saying they'd give me an...

www.fsuniverse.net

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I do want to say, it's only for that particular segment of the dance. To judge fully, we'd need to watch the entire videos. Just putting that out there, because this partial info thing keeps happening on twitter.

I have no real input on D/W vs V/M in 2014 as such - I just think the V/M SD is the best one ever, the one time I thought there was dance quality to them, and paired with their power of skating and absolute control it really was magical. (So I guess I'd give a significant lead in PCS to them vs the others in that SD, but that's all I really have an opinion on)

That D/W SD is my favorite of all time. I found the music choices charming and their Finn was great. They had finally buckled down and really perfected every thing - leg height, arm curve, angle of body lean, etc. At the time I was thinking that dance had never been so athletic and jammed packed. Partly, because of IJS. Unfortunately we have now had a period when many couples are trying this approach - i.e. a frantic pace, throwing each other around, extreme busyness with one bit unfinished before the next begun.

Now if you`re talking about V/M`s Mahler program you`ve got something there.