U.S. Men 2022-23 news & updates

[sheetz]

If Jason isn’t in the top three at nationals, they shouldn’t put him on the team. If he’s in the top three, they probably should, because nobody else managed to do a lot with the fall season besides Ilia. I really don’t think it’s going to be as ambiguous enough to warrant all this speculation. We won’t know how ready he is until we see him skate, and then we’ll know how ready he is. I can’t think of a skater right now less likely to have major performance fluctuations from one event to the next than Jason Brown. Sending him to 4CCs wouldn’t tell USFS anything they won’t already know after nationals, for better or worse.

I do wonder if they would still send Jason if he finished 4th. From past seasons he has usually taken a few events to get into the swing of things so sending him to 4cc would help to get rid of some of the rust.

 

[Stephanie]

If Jason doesn't do well at nationals, for example by finishing 4th, he's on pretty shaky ground for worlds. Here are the selection procedures (sorry for a few formatting issues):

Athletes shall be selected based upon performance(s) in the events below in a priority
order.

• 2023 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
• 2022 ISU Grand Prix Final
• 2022 ISU World Figure Skating Championships - 2022 Grand Prix Series
• 2022 Challenger Series
• 2022 ISU Senior International Events listed on the 2022-23 ISU calendar of events assigned by the International Committee (IC Discipline Subcommittees) during the 2022-23 season
• 2022 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
• 2022 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final
• 2022 Domestic Senior International Events including:

2022 Philadelphia Summer International
2022 Cranberry Cup International
2022 Lake Placid Ice Dance International
2022 John Nicks Pairs Challenge at Middle Atlantics
- 2022 Junior Grand Prix Series

The only other event he competed at on the list was 2022 nationals, when he didn't have a great free skate. For whatever reason, 2022 Worlds are included but not the Olympics.

Here's the full doc: https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2023 World Team Selection Procedures Final.pdf

 

[Stephanie]

Following up from my post above, Camden appears to be close to a lock for worlds unless he completely bombs nationals (and even then could still have an argument depending on how others do) since 2022 worlds is given such a high priority, even above the GP series (aside from the final but only Ilia was there) and he also has the second highest US season best score after Ilia. He also had the second best performance of the US men on the GP series.

 

[YukiNieve]

We need to take into account that there is only a week between US Nationals and 4CC...there might not be enough rest period for someone with injuries.

Ilia is also scheduled to skate at a show, Bol on Ice, in Italy on 1/6/23.

Skate Power: grandi eventi di sport e spettacolo

Appuntamenti di sport e spettacolo organizzati dal gruppo Skate Power Grandi Eventi.

www.skate-power.it

 

[Evgeniafan]

We need to take into account that there is only a week between US Nationals and 4CC...there might not be enough rest period for someone with injuries.

Ilia is also scheduled to skate at a show, Bol on Ice, in Italy on 1/6/23.

Skate Power: grandi eventi di sport e spettacolo

Appuntamenti di sport e spettacolo organizzati dal gruppo Skate Power Grandi Eventi.

www.skate-power.it

Where do you see the list of skaters?

 

[Trillian]

I do wonder if they would still send Jason if he finished 4th. From past seasons he has usually taken a few events to get into the swing of things so sending him to 4cc would help to get rid of some of the rust.

Following up from my post above, Camden appears to be close to a lock for worlds unless he completely bombs nationals (and even then could still have an argument depending on how others do) since 2022 worlds is given such a high priority, even above the GP series (aside from the final but only Ilia was there) and he also has the second highest US season best score after Ilia. He also had the second best performance of the US men on the GP series.

It seems totally reasonable for Camden to have favorite status at this point, although I’d guess he needs to have at least a halfway decent nationals.

I’ve been a Jason fan forever, but I can’t imagine there would be a great argument for sending him if he’s 4th, unless maybe he loses to someone without Worlds minimums. This isn’t last year’s nationals field in terms of depth, and he doesn’t have a consistent season to fall back on. Aside from Ilia, he can beat any of the other guys if he skates reasonably well, but I’m not sure why we’d send him to Worlds if he doesn’t skate well at nationals.

 

[Karen-W]

It seems totally reasonable for Camden to have favorite status at this point, although I’d guess he needs to have at least a halfway decent nationals.

I’ve been a Jason fan forever, but I can’t imagine there would be a great argument for sending him if he’s 4th, unless maybe he loses to someone without Worlds minimums. This isn’t last year’s nationals field in terms of depth, and he doesn’t have a consistent season to fall back on. Aside from Ilia, he can beat any of the other guys if he skates reasonably well, but I’m not sure why we’d send him to Worlds if he doesn’t skate well at nationals.

I have to agree, apart from Ilia and Camden (who, in his defense, has done no worse than any other US man on the GP aside from Ilia, and has the upward trajectory with a much improved score & the win at Golden Spin), the 3rd spot for the Worlds team seems wide open.

I don't see any reason for Jason to not have a pretty reasonable shot at getting it, but if he has another FS like he did in Nashville and some other guy finishes ahead of him, then there's no compelling reason for the USFS to name Jason to the Worlds team. There will be several competitions they can send a man without the Worlds TES mins to in February, just like they did with Ilia last year.

 

[carriecmu0503]

He's the current USFS darling and will have plenty of show opportunities in the future. In fact he's already had lots of opportunities. I see nothing to gain from skipping competitions against his main rivals ahead of the World Championships.

Edit: He's already earned a substantial amount of money this season based on his performances on the grand prix and Japan Open so I really doubt he's that hard pressed for cash.

Have you become his coach and his accountant? You sure seem privy to a lot of details of what he should and shouldn’t do or what he needs or does not need.

 

[Vagabond]

I sure hope that the skategods don't read the past few posts referring to Pulkinen.

 

[Sylvia]

Where do you see the list of skaters?

There's a video in the link @YukiNieve posted and Malinin is shown.

ETA that I've posted the "Bol on Ice" show info in the holiday shows thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...-skating-shows-worldwide.110167/#post-6355777

 

[Trillian]

I don't see any reason for Jason to not have a pretty reasonable shot at getting it, but if he has another FS like he did in Nashville and some other guy finishes ahead of him, then there's no compelling reason for the USFS to name Jason to the Worlds team.

Jason didn’t have a bad FS at nationals last year. Aside from the fall on the quad sal (which wasn’t a surprise), he didn’t leave a ton of points on the table. He’s scored in the 170 neighborhood internationally with very similar skates, and 160+ with worse. Based on the current SB list, I think USFS would be very happy to see a couple of performances like that from anyone besides Ilia at nationals this year.

 

[misskarne]

When was the last time the American men's champion went to Four Continents?

Nathan went in 2017 in Gangneung, Korea in his first season skating senior internationally and just after winning his first national title. He won the competition over Hanyu and Uno.

Jason also went in 2015, the year he was National Champion. Leaving out the Olympic years, you then have to go back to Max in 2013 to find the next man who went in his Championship year, noting there was no 4CC in 2021

I sure hope that the skategods don't read the past few posts referring to Pulkinen.

There's an awful lot of faith being shown in this thread in him for really no justifiable reason other than the hope that maybe, possibly, he'll start converting his talent more often.

 

[VGThuy]

There's an awful lot of faith being shown in this thread in him for really no justifiable reason other than the hope that maybe, possibly, he'll start converting his talent more often.

I actually think there is a lack of faith, which is why we’re talking about skating gods and are worried about him, haha. Nobody talks like that about more “sure things”.

 

[sheetz]

Just thinking aloud because I can't leave well enough alone...

I wonder if maybe the status of the US SOI tour has something to do it. Supposing the US SOI tour were very reduced or even pushed back in the calendar so much that it would interfere with next season's preparations then I can see it making sense for currently competing skaters like Ilia, Jason, and K/F to do shows like AoI instead of the US tour.

 

[Frau Muller]

I suppose it's possible that USFS may have decided that the top finishers at Nats will skip 4CC, which would a major departure from the past.

So is 4CC still a 2nd-tier award, even in non-Olympic seasons?

Who is Ilia Malinin, in his first FULL senior season at age 17, to decide himself to skip 4CC…a title which his very mother won (ladies event) the very first time? Absolutely absurd.

 

[skatfan]

So is 4CC still a 2nd-tier award, even in non-Olympic seasons?

Who is Ilia Malinin, in his first senior season at age 17, to decide himself to skip 4CC…a title which his very mother won (ladies event) the very first time? Absolutely absurd.

It’s not his first season- he was at senior worlds last year. Don’t you remember the drama that he didn’t go to the Olympics after placing 2nd at US Nationals? And I’m pretty sure that his coaches, parents and the USFS all have had input about this decision. I think it is wise not to push him too hard.

And who knew fans cared this much about the 4CCs? Who can even remember who won last year?

 

[Frau Muller]

It’s not his first season- he was at senior worlds last year. Don’t you remember the drama that he didn’t go to the Olympics after placing 2nd at US Nationals? And I’m pretty sure that his coaches, parents and the USFS all have had input about this decision. I think it is wise not to push him too hard.

And who knew fans cared this much about the 4CCs? Who can even remember who won last year?

First full Sr season. He was Junior GP circuit last season.
Malinin is sounding like a spoiled brat…and that may not be the real case. How many average persons outside Japan and FSU even know who he is?

 

[skatfan]

First full Sr season. He was Junior GP circuit last season.
Malinin is sounding like a spoiled brat…and that may not be the real case. How many average persons outside Japan and FSU even know who he is?

I’m aware of him being on the JR Grand Prix last season. He probably would have gone to 4CCs last year except he competed both Jr and Sr Worlds.

He’s getting a ton of social media draw on tik-tok and the like because of all the quads and reaching a new generation. And you’re acting like he’s barging his way into this gig like a cocky kid. I’m pretty sure he had to be invited to be a part of this prestigious show which is in Europe, not the US nor Japan.

 

[misskarne]

And who knew fans cared this much about the 4CCs? Who can even remember who won last year?

Some of us have always cared very much about it, especially when our country was supposed to host it this year! Perhaps if US skating and fans care so little for it they should have left it where it was!

 

[skatfan]

Some of us have always cared very much about it, especially when our country was supposed to host it this year! Perhaps if US skating and fans care so little for it they should have left it where it was!

I have attended only one 4CCs competition but I got to meet you there, so it was special! I did enjoy it a lot. And I am very sorry for Australian skating fans who will miss getting elite intl skaters there. But I think other threads have debunked the idea that the USFS somehow stole this year’s competition from Australia.

 

[Allskate]

Malinin is sounding like a spoiled brat…and that may not be the real case. How many average persons outside Japan and FSU even know who he is?

Seriously? How many average persons have even heard of Four Continents? There may be some bratty behavior going on, but I don't think it's coming from Ilia. Good grief.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Looking at the World Standings, which determine starting groups at Worlds, I see 13 Men who could surpass Malinin's 2858 points:

1. Rizzo, with Top 10 at Euros. (Can't earn more points at internationals, which max out at 250)
2. Chen, who could only earn points at international(s), because he's maxxed out on championship points.
3. Messing with 4th+ place at 4C's, or lower at 4C's and points from one international
4. Kvitelashvili, with 5th+ place at Euros, or lower at Euros and points from one international
5. Fa, with Top 12 at Euros. (Can't earn more points at internationals)
6. Vasiljevs, with 4th+ place at Euros or lower at Euros and international points.
7. Tomono, with 4th+ place at 4C's, or lower at 4C's plus international points.
8. Zhou, with 4th+ place at 4C's. (Can't earn more points at internationals.)
9. Pulkinen, with 4th+ place at 4C's (Can only earn 7 incremental points with a win at an international.)
10. Brown -- with 2nd+ place at 4C's, or lower at 4C's if he earned points at one or two open internationals slots.
11. Yamamoto, would need a combination of a lot of points at 4C's -- a win alone wouldn't do it -- plus points from one or two internationals.
12. Sato -- same as Yamamoto
13. Miura -- same as Yamamoto

But only three max of the four Japanese Men who need 4C's points to pass Malinin can compete there -- meaning no Uno, low probability, and no Kagiyama, still a question mark -- so that makes 12, and that's already an unlikely scenario.

Memola, Aymoz, and Britschi couldn't do it mathematically at Euros plus international(s), as all of them would be earning net incremental points only.

If I understand correctly, Chen and Zhou are not competing at Nationals, or even if Zhou is, he'd be in school for 4C's, and Brown is in the same show as Malinin during 4C's. So that makes nine.

Even if three of Tomono, Yamamoto, Sato, and Miura were the 4C's team and earn enough there, and whoever in the latter three earn enough at internationals to surpass Malinin, there are two Japanese Men above Malinin in WS, Uno and Kagiyama, and three who would surpass him. However, only three of them can compete at Worlds; two of their WS become moot, leaving seven, which with Malinin's current rank of 5 would put him in the penultimate group for the Worlds SP, if my logic and calculations are correct.

I don't think it's critical for Malinin to skate in the last group of the SP, although it could be a disadvantage if there's an ice resurfacing between the penultimate and final groups, which depends on the total number of competitors. If he lands his jumps, though, that shouldn't be an issue: it's not like the Men who'd surpass him with Euros/4C's points are that consistent, and even Grassl (2nd in WS) and Cha (3rd in WS) aren't either.

 

[Frau Muller]

Seriously? How many average persons have even heard of Four Continents? There may be some bratty behavior going on, but I don't think it's coming from Ilia. Good grief.

Maybe if figure skating as a sport were important in the US and most other countries, then skating brats would actually prefer competing to flying out to skate a couple of numbers for $$$, featuring local pop stars, such as Rag n Bone Man.

Home – Art on Ice

Art on Ice will tour from Zurich via Fribourg to Davos in 2023.

www.artonice.com

Not just Malinin; also K/F, also from US.
This has nothing to do with the venue…we can watch on Peacock or VPN, wherever it happens.

 

[Karen-W]

Some of us have always cared very much about it, especially when our country was supposed to host it this year! Perhaps if US skating and fans care so little for it they should have left it where it was!

You know perfectly well the US did not "steal" 4CCs from Australia. The problem was finding a suitable venue, which was impossible given the pandemic and resulting rescheduling of the event from 2021 and no available arenas with secondary practice rinks thanks to other events already being booked.

Of course, had this event been left in Australia, it wouldn't have changed the decision of Malinin, Brown, or KniFraz to participate in Art on Ice instead of compete at 4CCs.

 

[Trillian]

Maybe if figure skating as a sport were important in the US and most other countries, then skating brats would actually prefer competing to flying out to skate a couple of numbers for $$$, featuring local pop stars, such as Rag n Bone Man.

Or maybe if we hadn’t prioritized jumps to the expense of everything else when assigning points to various elements in the scoring system, their bodies could handle doing every single competition throughout the season.

I don’t know anything about Art On Ice except that a lot of people in Europe seem to get excited about it, but it’s high profile enough that it seems like a good opportunity for the skaters to perform without competitive pressure. That aspect of figure skating has a long and well-established history, too.

Either way, literal adults throwing shade and insulting a teenager they don’t know because he put one event on his schedule instead of another is truly unhinged. Get a grip. Ilia and the rest of these skaters do not owe you anything and their decision-making process is none of your business. Be grateful any time you do get to see them skate, and stop acting like you’re entitled to anything else from them. FFS.

 

[On My Own]

4CCs has to be considered one of the premier competitions of men's skating, that's not in question at all. Currently, it's also one of the premier competitions of ice dance and women's skating.

 

[Vagabond]

I actually think there is a lack of faith, which is why we’re talking about skating gods and are worried about him, haha. Nobody talks like that about more “sure things”.

I have absolute faith in the skategods, but great doubts about Camden Pulkinen.

 

[Frau Muller]

4CCs has to be considered one of the premier competitions of men's skating, that's not in question at all. Currently, it's also one of the premier competitions of ice dance and women's skating.

Actually, also for Pairs, with That Unnamed Eastern-Euro Country banned.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I have been listening to the audio version of Nathan's book. I knew about some of his injuries but that section was a little eye opening. I definitely would have had less enjoyment watching him skate if I had known about all of them. If you want to watch all the quads you have to let them have down time to avoid injury. Ilia can do whatever the hell he needs to do if he wants to make it to the next Olympics.

In fact all of figure skating needs to start prioritizing athlete health. Time to review the point incentives.

 

[AYS]

I have been listening to the audio version of Nathan's book. I knew about some of his injuries but that section was a little eye opening. I definitely would have had less enjoyment watching him skate if I had known about all of them. If you want to watch all the quads you have to let them have down time to avoid injury. Ilia can do whatever the hell he needs to do if he wants to make it to the next Olympics.

In fact all of figure skating needs to start prioritizing athlete health. Time to review the point incentives.

I completely agree with this. Given what Ilia is doing in his skating, it will take a thoughtful approach to training, good pacing, and some luck (to be honest) to make it through the Olympiad. Especially since he's obviously still growing, so at high risk for overuse injuries (and already having injury issues).

Unless he's required to do a certain event based on rules, funding requirements, or contractual aspects, he and his team have every right to make decisions that are in their own best interest, whether those considerations are physical, financial, or mental.

Really, it's a major factor for all the guys doing multiple quads all the time.