CAS rules Valieva can compete - reactions/fallout, plus some details from the hearing

[AYS]

Simple logic. Getting your silver and bronze now on site will make not harm to getting your gold or silver later off site, comparing to getting your gold or silver later off site. What if the final ruling were ROC retain their gold and USA and JPN get their silver and bronze? IOC's decision just deprives of the moment of the clean athletes.

This!

This aspect of the whole thing makes me so mad.

 

[Firedancer]

I really doubt other skaters and coaches will boo her. If fans are allowed at worlds though it could definitely happen there

 

[Bigbird]

Silence would be better.

 

[ioana]

Didn't Raducan get to keep her Olympic team and event final medals?

She did, but I guess the more relevant timeline would be that she was allowed to compete in floor finals that Monday afternoon, after the positive test from the AA came back the same morning (since subsequent tests were negative).

Bitter pill as tiny gymnast loses gold | The Guardian | guardian.co.uk

www.theguardian.com

Summer Olympics 2000 Raducan tests positive for stimulant

In Andreea's case the explanation offered - she took two Nurofen cold pills- matched the positive pseudoephedrine test and made perfect sense. The fact that taller and heavier teammate Amanar took the same dose and didn't cross the allotted threshold was also taken into account. My understanding of TMZ is that it's not allowed in any quantity, without a Therapeutic Use Exemption. Something that can increase blood flow is regulated differently than cold medication ingredients where some predetermined amount is allowed.

 

[altai_rose]

She did, but I guess the more relevant timeline would be that she was allowed to compete in floor finals that Monday afternoon, after the positive test from the AA came back the same morning (since subsequent tests were negative).

Bitter pill as tiny gymnast loses gold | The Guardian | guardian.co.uk

www.theguardian.com

Summer Olympics 2000 Raducan tests positive for stimulant

In Andreea's case the explanation offered - she took two Nurofen cold pills- matched the positive pseudoephedrine test and made perfect sense. The fact that taller and heavier teammate Amanar took the same dose and didn't cross the allotted threshold was also taken into account. My understanding of TMZ is that it's not allowed in any quantity, without a Therapeutic Use Exemption. Something that can increase blood flow is regulated differently than cold medication ingredients where some predetermined amount is allowed.

Right, she was allowed to compete in floor finals even after the IOC knew her AA test was positive. I understand the explanation (and I agree with it and the leniency the IOC showed), but I thought most people on this board were like 'Banned substance = banned substance, doesn't matter what it is or what the circumstances are. Raise the age limit - If you can't be responsible for what you take, then you shouldn't be competing.'

 

[skatingguy]

I don't think the IOC will hand out the medals for the Team Event, or the Women's event if Valieva medals, but assuming that they did I could see a great ceremony, if, when the medal for the Team Event are reallocated.

Ceremony starts with the American & Japanese teams marching in, wearing the silver & bronze medals respectively, and take their respective positions on the podium. Then the Canadian team marches in and stands in front of the Japanese team on the bronze medal position on the podium. The Japanese team than takes off the bronze medals & puts them on the Canadian team, and they switch spots on the podium. The Japanese team then goes to the silver medal podium position, and does the same thing with the American team, and finally the American team takes their place on the top of the podium, and receives the gold medals. It will never happen, but symbolism of the whole thing would be amazing.

 

[VGThuy]

I doubt the rules were the same twenty-two years ago as they are now and so much as been exposed in the world of doping that if the Raducan case happened now, the whole thing may have been treated differently…unless she was 15 and Russian.

 

[skatingguy]

Right, she was allowed to compete in floor finals even after officials knew her AA test was positive. I understand the explanation, but I thought most people on this board were like 'Banned substance = banned substance, doesn't matter what it is or what the circumstances are. Raise the age limit - If you can't be responsible for what you take, then you shouldn't be competing.'

For starters things are very different now than they were in 2000 - WADA code wasn't put into effect until 2004. In addition, the positive test happened during the Olympics, the explanation for the positive test was determined quickly, and the responsible party (the team doctor) was suspended. So the entire situation was resolved from positive test to penalty in a very short period of time, and so that's why Raducan was allowed to compete.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I can't find the thread post explaining it now but it was also a completely different type of drug. There was an allowable amount that could be found in someone's system. They gave Raducan too much of it so the test result was too high. TMZ is never allowed so there is no such thing as an acceptable drug level.

 

[altai_rose]

For starters things are very different now than they were in 2000 - WADA code wasn't put into effect until 2004. In addition, the positive test happened during the Olympics, the explanation for the positive test was determined quickly, and the responsible party (the team doctor) was suspended. So the entire situation was resolved from positive test to penalty in a very short period of time, and so that's why Raducan was allowed to compete.

I agree that 2000 (which doesn't seem that long ago, but 22 years!) were very different, and the situation is not directly comparable. What I can't remember is whether they were able to resolve the entire situation before the floor finals, or whether they were resolved after the floor finals. Wiki seems to suggest that they were resolved after the floor finals because Raducan did not know that she was definitely going to be stripped of her AA gold during the finals.

 

[reckless]

Different rules on provisional suspensions might be one reason for Raducan competing. But the current rules also have a provision that would probably let Raducan compete:

Notwithstanding Articles 7.4.1 and 7.4.2, a Provisional may not be imposed unless the rules of the Anti-Doping Organization provide the Athlete or other Person with: (a) an opportunity for a Provisional Hearing, either before the imposition of the Provisional Suspension or on a timely basis after the imposition of the Provisional Suspension; or (b) an opportunity for an expedited hearing in accordance with Article 8 on a timely basis after imposition of a Provisional Suspension. The rules of the Anti-Doping Organization shall also provide an opportunity for an expedited appeal against the imposition of a Provisional Suspension, or the decision not to impose a Provisional Suspension, in accordance with Article 13.

If Raducan only tested positive the day of the event, there would have been no time for a hearing. Valieva’s situation is different because she could and did have time for a hearing before her event.

 

[ioana]

For starters things are very different now than they were in 2000 - WADA code wasn't put into effect until 2004. In addition, the positive test happened during the Olympics, the explanation for the positive test was determined quickly, and the responsible party (the team doctor) was suspended. So the entire situation was resolved from positive test to penalty in a very short period of time, and so that's why Raducan was allowed to compete.

To be fair, the doctor suspension and confirming all around medal was taken away happened later on that week, Thursday after the event finals ended on Monday. You can see team doctor wondering around right after her routine in event finals.

Andreea Raducan (ROM) - 2000 Olympic Games EF FX

Andreea Raducan (ROM) - 7th placeSV 10 - 9,275

www.youtube.com

Am actually not sure what the rules were at the time, but Dong Fangxio was also later disqualified for having her age falsified so whoever the FX reserves were, they have a right to be upset. At least IOC is allowing 25 skaters into the LP here so some contingencies are made.

 

[Excidra]

So now we know how Eteri is able to produce all these quad jumping girls

I will not be watching the Russian ladies for the first time. And this is coming from a skating fanatic.ong

 

[just tuned in]

Does KV in fact live with her mother and grandfather? Do we have that information? Does she have meals with her parents and sleep in their house? I somehow was under the impression that she lived in a dormitory.

 

[sk9tingfan]

So now we know how Eteri is able to produce all these quad jumping girls

I will not be watching the Russian ladies for the first time. And this is coming from a skating fanatic.ong

And Arthur Liu will be joining you....

 

[sk9tingfan]

I can't find the thread post explaining it now but it was also a completely different type of drug. There was an allowable amount that could be found in someone's system. They gave Raducan too much of it so the test result was too high. TMZ is never allowed so there is no such thing as an acceptable drug level.

Probably Meldonium?

 

[becca]

Does KV in fact live with her mother and grandfather? Do we have that information? Does she have meals with her parents and sleep in their house? I somehow was under the impression that she lived in a dormitory.

They said he lives close by sometimes she stays over he takes her to training.

Someone on another board posted that some of the girls at Sambo did take the pills and things but not all did.

They said specifally the reigning OGM and Sasha did not rumors are.

Both of the parents were members of the sports system and saw what could do to their daughters health so refused it for their daughters.

I don’t agree with guilt by association. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people speak up soon

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Probably Meldonium?

cold medication. closer to sudafed if not sudafed itself.

 

[ioana]

cold medication. closer to sudafed if not sudafed itself.

It was Nurofen per ESPN article but anything that has pseudoephedrine would have had the same effect. This was actually off the banned substance list from 2004-2010, but is now back on, with a higher allowed limit than the 24 nanograms/ml that were in place back in 2000.

Summer Olympics 2000 Raducan tests positive for stimulant

 

[Orm Irian]

cold medication. closer to sudafed if not sudafed itself.

I believe it was in fact Sudafed, back when it contained psuedoephedrine and not just pheynlephrine.

 

[PRlady]

I believe it was in fact Sudafed, back when it contained psuedoephedrine and not just pheynlephrine.

They changed the formula because people were cooking it to make meth. They also moved it behind the counter and made it an age-restricted item. Alas, it also doesn’t work as well as it used to.

Anyway, anyone who takes regular medication makes mistakes, from forgetting if the pill was taken already to mistaking one pill for another. (Many years ago I took one of then-husband’s pills rather than mine. It was penicillin and I’m allergic to it. I called the ER to ask what to do and they zoomed in with an ambulance and pumped my damn stomach.)

But athletes here are so conditioned to never put unknown pills or substances in their bodies. No mistakes. No room for error.

Clearly the Russian attitude is different.

 

[Rob]

Interesting read in the comments. Yelim Kim is one of the athletes that took issue with CAS's decision. She was 13 years old and accidentally skipped a drug testing because she skipped out on a medal ceremony. Even though she was 13 she was supposed to be aware of policy and follow it. I guess she deserved to be punished because she wasn't Russian enough.

I think Yelim Kim was just reprimanded, she could have been suspended for up to a year. Is there a history of suspending these “protected athletes” or just reprimanding them?

 

[becca]

To be honest I may sound like I am defending Kamila but I am not I am not sure I can bear to watch the results

 

[bladesofgorey]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but someone got their hands on the hearing document and it's viewable in embedded form on this website:

Камилу Валиеву решили не отстранять от Олимпийских игр

Мы узнали, как ее защита объясняла допинг в пробе

dossier-center.appspot.com

A few things to note:

1. Valieva does not say that she drank from her grandfather's glass, just that her grandfather takes the medication for his heart and she thinks that she must have tested positive through contamination that way
2. Her lawyers are the ones saying it was likely from a drinking glass, or picked up through food on a counter that had residue, etc.
3. Her grandfather testified via video from a car that he take TMZ and held up a package of the medication
4. No objective source has been able to verify that her grandfather takes this so far (no prescription produced, medical chart, etc.)
5. Valieva herself already takes a different heart medication (?!?) -hypoxene "when asked at the hearing why she took hypoxen, her mother responded that she took it to treat "heart variations" Interesting given that it's marketed as the following "Hypoxen provides a reduction in oxygen consumption with significant physical exertion, improved tissue respiration, a decrease in mental and physical fatigue, and the successful implementation of labor-intensive physical operations." I mean I guess your heart beating faster during exertion could be considered a heart variation. (lol)
6. Valieva also takes supplements like L-Carnitine but did not blame tainted supplements for the positive test.

 

[Allskate]

Valieva herself already takes a different heart medication (?!?) -hypoxene "when asked at the hearing why she took hypoxen, her mother responded that she took it to treat "heart variations" Interesting given that it's marketed as the following "Hypoxen provides a reduction in oxygen consumption with significant physical exertion, improved tissue respiration, a decrease in mental and physical fatigue, and the successful implementation of labor-intensive physical operations." I mean I guess your heart beating faster during exertion could be considered a heart variation. (lol)

I wonder how many of those Russian teenagers training with Valieva suffer from "heart variations" and take hypoxene.

 

[cazzer]

I think we should all take action and submit protests about the lack of medal ceremony to the IOC. Here is the contact link: https://olympics.com/ioc/contact-us

This is the idea I had and this is what I just submitted to them:

"I understand the desire to not hold a medal ceremony when an athlete who won a medal was found positive for doping. However, the risk of having to reverse the medals in the future should be weighed against the terrible outcome of athletes who fairly won medals at the games to go unrewarded. Can you think of a compromise that allows for the athletes who competed fairly from the USA and Japan in the Team Figure Skating event to be in the medal plaza and celebrated by the public? At least flowers could be awarded. Some other sort of Olympic emblem could be awarded. The podium could be all one level. Both of their anthems could be played and flags displayed. There must be a way to still hold a celebration and keep it neutral so that the offending country is not included, but that the fair competitors are rewarded. This ceremony is what the athletes strive for all their lives. The medal coming months later is not the most important thing, it is the celebration and recognition in the moment that they care most about.

Secondly, if other athletes finish the Ladies' event ahead of the athlete who tested positive for doping, they should have the opportunity to have a medal ceremony for themself(ves)."

Let's swamp the IOC with our protests and ideas!

 

[PRlady]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but someone got their hands on the hearing document and it's viewable in embedded form on this website:

Камилу Валиеву решили не отстранять от Олимпийских игр

Мы узнали, как ее защита объясняла допинг в пробе

dossier-center.appspot.com

A few things to note:

1. Valieva does not say that she drank from her grandfather's glass, just that her grandfather takes the medication for his heart and she thinks that she must have tested positive through contamination that way
2. Her lawyers are the ones saying it was likely from a drinking glass, or picked up through food on a counter that had residue, etc.
3. Her grandfather testified via video from a car that he take TMZ and held up a package of the medication
4. No objective source has been able to verify that her grandfather takes this so far (no prescription produced, medical chart, etc.)
5. Valieva herself already takes a different heart medication (?!?) -hypoxene "when asked at the hearing why she took hypoxen, her mother responded that she took it to treat "heart variations" Interesting given that it's marketed as the following "Hypoxen provides a reduction in oxygen consumption with significant physical exertion, improved tissue respiration, a decrease in mental and physical fatigue, and the successful implementation of labor-intensive physical operations." I mean I guess your heart beating faster during exertion could be considered a heart variation. (lol)
6. Valieva also takes supplements like L-Carnitine but did not blame tainted supplements for the positive test.

Holy shit. I am even more stunned that CAS heard this horror story defense and is letting her skate.

 

[sk9tingfan]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but someone got their hands on the hearing document and it's viewable in embedded form on this website:

Камилу Валиеву решили не отстранять от Олимпийских игр

Мы узнали, как ее защита объясняла допинг в пробе

dossier-center.appspot.com

A few things to note:

1. Valieva does not say that she drank from her grandfather's glass, just that her grandfather takes the medication for his heart and she thinks that she must have tested positive through contamination that way
2. Her lawyers are the ones saying it was likely from a drinking glass, or picked up through food on a counter that had residue, etc.
3. Her grandfather testified via video from a car that he take TMZ and held up a package of the medication
4. No objective source has been able to verify that her grandfather takes this so far (no prescription produced, medical chart, etc.)
5. Valieva herself already takes a different heart medication (?!?) -hypoxene "when asked at the hearing why she took hypoxen, her mother responded that she took it to treat "heart variations" Interesting given that it's marketed as the following "Hypoxen provides a reduction in oxygen consumption with significant physical exertion, improved tissue respiration, a decrease in mental and physical fatigue, and the successful implementation of labor-intensive physical operations." I mean I guess your heart beating faster during exertion could be considered a heart variation. (lol)
6. Hr

1. Valieva also takes supplements like L-Carnitine but did not blame tainted supplements for the positive test.

 

[Seerek]

That's interesting - L Caratine had been in the news in recent years as it relates to Alberto Salazar

 

[MacMadame]

Holy shit. I am even more stunned that CAS heard this horror story defense and is letting her skate.

It introduces reasonable doubt. Sort of.

The issue I have with this defense is that I don't think the trace amounts that you could get one time from something on the counter would still be in her system by the time she was tested. Kamila was not living at home during Russian Nationals (given that they were in St. Petersburg and she lives in Moscow). Which means she would be tested days after any possible contamination The people who test positive from supplement contamination are taking those supplements regularly.

People who test positive because of contamination from supplements are taking those supplements regularly.