Discussing Tuberidze's latest interview

[LeafOnTheWind]

Am I the only one who has weighed myself almost every day for most of my life? When I was skating it helped me and it still helps me to keep fit. I have never had an eating disorder.

If I gain more than 5 pounds I just don't feel right.

And that is supposed to mean what to those who don't find daily weigh-ins helpful or healthy? It's a good thing you didn't develop an eating disorder according to you but that does nothing for others.

 

[skateboy]

And that is supposed to mean what to those who don't find daily weigh-ins helpful or healthy? It's a good thing you didn't develop an eating disorder according to you but that does nothing for others.

Just that regular weigh ins do not necessarily lead to eating disorders, so they are not necessarily "bad."

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

If you aren't understanding this conversation I do question how healthy your attitude towards eating is to begin with.

 

[Coco]

It's very hard to discuss this issue without emotion or irrationality coming in from any point of view. For example, a month or so ago Megan Duhamel was insisting on Twitter that a skater's mass does not affect their ability to jump. That can't be possible, but she holds herself out as an expert on these things.

There's an optimal strength-weight ratio for every athlete. And not every body type will excel at skating.

I think weight is such a lazy measurement for a coach to take. They should be testing speed, endurance, flexibility and strength while someone with a medical background is evaluating the skater's health and nutrition.

So much of the concern about weight for coaches of elite figure skaters and gymnasts seems to be a mask for desiring a particular aesthetic.

 

[skateboy]

If you aren't understanding this conversation I do question how healthy your attitude towards eating is to begin with.

That is a cheap shot and you know it.

 

[bladesofgorey]

I don't know that there's a 'best way' answer, but if someone else thinks there is, go ahead.

Ok fine here you go:

It's a deep sickness in society for anyone to have to try and bring their weight down so that they won't be publicly shamed or humiliated within their sport, by their coach, peers, or society at large. You are trying to solve for the wrong problem. You are asking "How do we protect athletes from being pointed at and laughed at if they aren't below a certain weight that's unnatural for 99% of the population without an illness of one sort or an another" rather than "how to we make sure athletes are mentally and physically healthy enough to perform at their highest levels safely" and "how do we not do lifelong psychological and physical damage to young athletes". Those are the two things we should be solving for.

How to solve this? I've stated it repeatedly but I guess it doesn't align with some peoples' personal aesthetics:
Train athletes well, monitor their mental as well as physical health, make sure they are getting enough good nutrition that their bodies need to stay strong, and build intense training volume over time, never going past the point where they start to break down physically without building up.

Once again, I have competed at the national level in a sport where the physics require strength but also lighter weights to truly excel- and the best athletes, athletes I trained alongside with- world class athletes, athletes who held national and at times world records- did not have coaches who micro-managed their diets, their weights, their body fat percentages etc. Yes all these athletes were lean but they were a range of weights and hardly any (if any) dipped more than a pound or two what's on the low end of standard BMI charts even when they were in peak racing shape. Stop pretending this is impossible when I know for a fact because I've seen it with my own eyes it's not.

(PS, when I was racing I never skipped a period throughout my distance running career, and never was below a pound or two under the BMI charts even in the lead up to my most important races. Most of my peers were a bit heavier than me, and my coach was sometimes worried I wasn't eating enough, not that I was eating too much and sent me to a nutritionists who verified I was eating enough, just a bit too much junk food.)

I was named to the world marathon team if that helps, in case anyone thinks I'm just talking out my arse.

 

[marbri]

Am I the only one who has weighed myself almost every day for most of my life? When I was skating it helped me and it still helps me to keep fit. I have never had an eating disorder.

If I gain more than 5 pounds I just don't feel right.

Serious question. If you are active and eat a healthy diet, even with the occasional treat, what benefit is there to weigh yourself more than once a week? Someone living that lifestyle shouldn't have to weigh themselves more than once a week to keep themselves in check?

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

That is a cheap shot and you know it.

You need to stop downplaying what everyone is trying to tell you about how daily weigh-ins can be bad for people. Just because you say it didn't affect you doesn't mean it's not going to affect others. Also, I'm not saying this to be mean or as a cheap shot. Your inability or refusal to understand what people are telling you really doesn't bode well for the concept that daily weigh-ins are healthy and that you've escaped the pitfalls from it.

 

[tony]

Once again, I have competed at the national level in a sport where the physics require strength but also lighter weights to truly excel- and the best athletes, athletes I trained alongside with- world class athletes, athletes who held national and at times world records- did not have coaches who micro-managed their diets, their weights, their body fat percentages etc. Yes all these athletes were lean but they were a range of weights and hardly any (if any) dipped more than a pound or two what's on the low end of standard BMI charts even when they were in peak racing shape. Stop pretending this is impossible when I know for a fact because I've seen it with my own eyes it's not.

You know, you're one of many just throwing out claims that no one ever said. What is 'impossible'? That's great that you're giving a view of a world-class athlete. Anyone who knows anything about the BMI knows it's very likely that anyone with even a little bit of extra muscle is likely to be 'overweight' by those standards. So what good does it really do to go by that and see that you're 'overweight'? And there are often disclaimers from creditable people that it doesn't take into account things like that or body fat.

Do you want to get rid of the sports (usually for young men) that require weigh-ins that have to be below a limit each week? As I said, seeing that in high school was a bit wild to me.

There are also accusations in this thread of Shcherbakova starving. With what proof? Because she's slender? That's as bad a claim as Dave Lease continuing on with this steroids/drug use thing. Trusova openly said she eats whatever she wants. Is she a vicious liar? None of Tutberidze's women really have a similar build so it's not some formulaic thing.

 

[soogar]

Anna is not slender. She is starved.

I don't think BMI is worthless but very hard to set a good range. What is very certain is that this kind of behaviour against children - not just in Russia but also in other countries - is a travesty and we need ways to stop it.

Are we looking at the same girl? She was very small when she started but she has filled out. Valieva is pretty solid looking girl as well. She actually reminds me of Kimmy Meissner because her legs are so muscular, as are her shoulders and trunk. I actually would argue that Valieva and Trusova are "hulking" compared to Tukt and the other competitors. Compare their bodies with Brady and Mariah and I think the Americans are the ones who look like they are starving. The only Eteri skater who looks undernourished is Daria. It seems to me like the new skater who can handle quad jumps and triple axels is thin but solid.

 

[Bulletsdad]

You know, you're one of many just throwing out claims that no one ever said. What is 'impossible'? That's great that you're giving a view of a world-class athlete. Anyone who knows anything about the BMI knows it's very likely that anyone with even a little bit of extra muscle is likely to be 'overweight' by those standards. So what good does it really do to go by that and see that you're 'overweight'? And there are often disclaimers from creditable people that it doesn't take into account things like that or body fat.

Do you want to get rid of the sports (usually for young men) that require weigh-ins that have to be below a limit each week? As I said, seeing that in high school was a bit wild to me.

There are also accusations in this thread of Shcherbakova starving. With what proof? Because she's slender? That's as bad a claim as Dave Lease continuing on with this steroids/drug use thing. Trusova openly said she eats whatever she wants. Is she a vicious liar? None of Tutberidze's women really have a similar build so it's not some formulaic thing.

There's no "proof" of starvation, but the ubiquitous injuries among Eteri skaters do suggest low bone density from malnutrition.

 

[tony]

There's no "proof" of starvation, but the ubiquitous injuries among Eteri skaters do suggest low bone density from malnutrition.

Then it's bullshit to claim proof of anything otherwise regarding Anna because of her build. And we've already circled around the injuries amongst all junior skaters for the last 20 or so years (which I'm not saying is 'fine', either, but you can go check all those other replies). So no, it's not exclusive to Tutberidze and therefore the correlation is also bullshit.

 

[BlueRidge]

No one can tell by looking at someone if they have an eating disorder, or if they do not have normal menses, of if they have bone thinning or other health issues.

People are speculating that the methods of a coach are problematic based on statements she has made publicly. There is a basis for that but it is provoking people here to make baseless statements about the health of individuals who they only see at a distance or in the media. This isn't a productive thing to do.

 

[bladesofgorey]

You know, you're one of many just throwing out claims that no one ever said. What is 'impossible'? That's great that you're giving a view of a world-class athlete. Anyone who knows anything about the BMI knows it's very likely that anyone with even a little bit of extra muscle is likely to be 'overweight' by those standards. So what good does it really do to go by that and see that you're 'overweight'? And there are often disclaimers from creditable people that it doesn't take into account things like that or body fat.

Do you want to get rid of the sports (usually for young men) that require weigh-ins that have to be below a limit each week? As I said, seeing that in high school was a bit wild to me.

Keep arguing stupid points about BMI etc. that have nothing to do with the topic- I threw that out there so people could get an idea of weight ranges on the low end for my fellow athletes, not because I think BMI is some holy grail of measurement or that we paid any attention to it but it seems you are not a careful reader. Do you care to respond to my actual solutions since you asked for them or nah?

Also yes I absolutely believe that sports that require weigh-ins for young men or women should be restructured so that athletes aren't forced or encouraged to engage in harmful practices ahead of weigh-ins and matches. That sh!t is harmful and needs to go.

 

[BlueRidge]

Are we looking at the same girl? She was very small when she started but she has filled out. Valieva is pretty solid looking girl as well. She actually reminds me of Kimmy Meissner because her legs are so muscular, as are her shoulders and trunk. I actually would argue that Valieva and Trusova are "hulking" compared to Tukt and the other competitors. Compare their bodies with Brady and Mariah and I think the Americans are the ones who look like they are starving. The only Eteri skater who looks undernourished is Daria. It seems to me like the new skater who can handle quad jumps and triple axels is thin but solid.

I think you missed my point. You are naming names. No one should be talking about who looks healthy or too thin or whatever by name like this. I don't care what point of view people are taking on it. People shouldn't be speculating on who is healthy and who isn't by appearance.

Talk about the methods of training, fine, but all of us need to take a step back in putting out this judging of individuals on their weight and possible health.

 

[muffinplus]

I think your comments in this thread have made it very clear that you have no understanding about what abuse means and what a devastating impact the starvation and eating treatment this athlets suffer from has on children, teenagers and adults.
This is not about preference for a skater or a coach. This is about destroying people.

And you clearly have no understanding that you are speculating on/inventing things you have ZERO idea / factual knowledge ( like talking about something being abuse or those disgusting comment about Anna being starved) simply because you are incredibly biased.. but being on that high horse surely must feel nice

And by the way questioning and asking for evidence that daily wieigh ins are a harmful practice isn't a "lack of understanding."..

 

[Willin]

It's very hard to discuss this issue without emotion or irrationality coming in from any point of view. For example, a month or so ago Megan Duhamel was insisting on Twitter that a skater's mass does not affect their ability to jump. That can't be possible, but she holds herself out as an expert on these things.

There's an optimal strength-weight ratio for every athlete. And not every body type will excel at skating.

I think weight is such a lazy measurement for a coach to take. They should be testing speed, endurance, flexibility and strength while someone with a medical background is evaluating the skater's health and nutrition.

So much of the concern about weight for coaches of elite figure skaters and gymnasts seems to be a mask for desiring a particular aesthetic.

Definitely agree that weight is lazy and strength-weight ratio is a lot more important. Simone Biles is not skinny, but the massive amounts of muscle mass she has compared to her short stature makes her at the top of her sport. The old sense in gymnastics was skinny is king, but now we're seeing a range from skinny to muscular to somewhere in between. Skating will get this way too.

As far as weight not affecting jumps, I usually hear 5-10 lbs is when you feel it. But even that's not the whole picture. I know obese skaters who can do doubles because they have enough muscle. There are some overweight skaters doing triples because they have enough muscle. There are plenty of internationally competitive skaters who are in a healthy weight range - maybe not overweight, but also not sticks. If you build muscle and bone in a healthy way you don't need to be skinny to land your jumps. Just look at Liza - one of the best 3As in the Ladies field and videos of massive 4Ts without being too skinny - because she has a lot of muscle to get herself the necessary height and distance. And Russian coaches still called her too fat.

 

[tony]

Keep arguing stupid points about BMI etc. that have nothing to do with the topic- I threw that out there so people could get an idea of weight ranges on the low end for my fellow athletes, not because I think BMI is some holy grail of measurement or that we paid any attention to it but it seems you are not a careful reader. Do you care to respond to my actual solutions since you asked for them or nah?

You put that as part of your reply. Should I just skip over it? I carefully read it.

I've written in other threads that the biggest key to all of this is getting a proper understanding of nutrition from a young age and understanding things like healthy fats, carbs, whatever rather than fats and carbs are bad!! But you know what? That isn't going to solve all of the problems either, nor is a strong support system guaranteeing that everyone will have the awareness to stay strong. This is why I asked what can be done.

What you wrote cannot be a one size fits all approach. We already know external factors can play a big part in self confidence, too. 'Train athletes well' - okay, many skaters still have fluke injuries or odd landings or whatever. That's not going away. How does one gauge when a skater can move on to the next element after completing one successfully? There's no way to determine that learning stage is going to be 100% successful. The assumption here from the start has been that Tutberidze is pushing the skaters too hard in practice, and that Kostornaia's hand injury must have been because of something she did. Not maybe, not possibly. Must. 'Make sure they are getting enough nutrition' - I'm guessing the coach shouldn't be the one doing this. So does every skater get a nutritionist (team) and have them monitor everything they are eating anyways? Because unless they are actually monitoring the eating 24/7, I don't know how that's possible. Monitoring mental health also isn't really 'easy'. Are you suggesting each skater has a psychologist, nutritionist, someone monitoring coaching sessions and eating habits, etc? Do we block social media to lessen the external pressures that might mess with all the nutritional knowledge one may have?

Like I said, I appreciate that's great that you contributed your own view of how everything worked, but what I can't stand are the constant claims in these threads like everyone knows everything about what is happening. Most of the 'signs' provided are rubbish, going from only Eteri skaters having injuries to only Eteri skaters retire young to this or that skater is starving. What I do think is that there are maybe big issues throughout the sport and sports in general that people are only applying to Eteri because she is dominating the sport.

@BlueRidge has come into this thread a few times to point out the unsubstantiated claims are not where this should be going, but some people are so hellbent on making these hypotheticals to strengthen their own views. How is that helpful EVER aside from being selfish?

Are people secretly agreeing with all of Dave Lease's claims about what Tutberidze is doing drug-wise, too, but since it's coming from him they won't say it?

Just look at Liza - one of the best 3As in the Ladies field and videos of massive 4Ts without being too skinny - because she has a lot of muscle to get herself the necessary height and distance. And Russian coaches still called her too fat.

Not sure about Russian, but a Canadian-born coach definitely said she needed to lose weight.

 

[skateboy]

You need to stop downplaying what everyone is trying to tell you about how daily weigh-ins can be bad for people. Just because you say it didn't affect you doesn't mean it's not going to affect others. Also, I'm not saying this to be mean or as a cheap shot. Your inability or refusal to understand what people are telling you really doesn't bode well for the concept that daily weigh-ins are healthy and that you've escaped the pitfalls from it.

You are specifically telling me that something I have done for most of my life is wrong. I disagree.

Can weighing oneself lead to eating disorders? Yes, certainly. But for most people it doesn't, it is simply a means to keep tabs to maintaining a healthy weight and lifestyle. I would bet that there are posters here on FSU that step on the scale every day.

I really don't have anything else to say on the subject.

 

[skateboy]

Serious question. If you are active and eat a healthy diet, even with the occasional treat, what benefit is there to weigh yourself more than once a week? Someone living that lifestyle shouldn't have to weigh themselves more than once a week to keep themselves in check?

I can gain weight very easily, it's always been the case for me. Too many carbs and sugars within just one week can put 6 pounds on me. I feel better keeping tabs on my progress every day.

The benefit is that my body rarely wants high carbs and desserts anymore. I do best with lean meats and green veggies, and a small amount of fruit. And I've become very creative with salads, to the point to where they are up there in my top five favorite things to eat.

 

[ioana]

There are scenarios where daily weigh-ins would make sense, i.e. anything involving a male partner with partially herniated discs that could be managed and strengthened. Even seemingly minor weight fluctuations could dictate whether or not you work on lifts that day.

Am not sure how this is done at Eteri's rink. If it's done as a group, with 'helpful' comments offered if someone is gaining weight 'consistently' over two days, there's a peer pressure and self-esteem aspect that's anything but benign. It's hard to fully comment when we don't know exactly how these things happen since that 'how' is probably the most important part.

 

[bladesofgorey]

I've written in other threads that the biggest key to all of this is getting a proper understanding of nutrition from a young age and understanding things like healthy fats, carbs, whatever rather than fats and carbs are bad!! But you know what? That isn't going to solve all of the problems either, nor is a strong support system guaranteeing that everyone will have the awareness to stay strong. This is why I asked what can be done.

What you wrote cannot be a one size fits all approach. We already know external factors can play a big part in self confidence, too. 'Train athletes well' - okay, many skaters still have fluke injuries or odd landings or whatever. That's not going away. How does one gauge when a skater can move on to the next element after completing one successfully? There's no way to determine that learning stage is going to be 100% successful. The assumption here from the start has been that Tutberidze is pushing the skaters too hard in practice, and that Kostornaia's hand injury must have been because of something she did. Not maybe, not possibly. Must. 'Make sure they are getting enough nutrition' - I'm guessing the coach shouldn't be the one doing this. So does every skater get a nutritionist (team) and have them monitor everything they are eating anyways? Because unless they are actually monitoring the eating 24/7, I don't know how that's possible. Monitoring mental health also isn't really 'easy'. Are you suggesting each skater has a psychologist, nutritionist, someone monitoring coaching sessions and eating habits, etc? Do we block social media to lessen the external pressures that might mess with all the nutritional knowledge one may have?

Like I said, I appreciate that's great that you contributed your own view of how everything worked, but what I can't stand are the constant claims in these threads like everyone knows everything about what is happening. Most of the 'signs' provided are rubbish, going from only Eteri skaters having injuries to only Eteri skaters retire young to this or that skater is starving. What I do think is that there are maybe big issues throughout the sport and sports in general that people are only applying to Eteri because she is dominating the sport.

Ok, I didn't realize we needed to solve all of the confounding factors for why some people still develop eating disorders before we can determine that clearly abusive behaviors around weight and eating and shame in Eteri's camps need to stop.
The CLAIMS are multiple statements made by the coaches themselves over a number of years. Are they lying? I'm not jealous of Eteri's success why do you believe people who want to stop abuse of children are? I've had the same wrath for Sappenfield's abusive coaching environment, do you think that's because I was jealous her pairs skaters were doing well?

'Make sure they are getting enough nutrition' - I'm guessing the coach shouldn't be the one doing this. So does every skater get a nutritionist (team) and have them monitor everything they are eating anyways? Because unless they are actually monitoring the eating 24/7, I don't know how that's possible. Monitoring mental health also isn't really 'easy'. Are you suggesting each skater has a psychologist, nutritionist, someone monitoring coaching sessions and eating habits, etc? Do we block social media to lessen the external pressures that might mess with all the nutritional knowledge one may have?

This isn't rocket science or how this works in practice- why do you make up these scenarios that have no basis in reality? The way that nutritionists work with elite athletes is they meet with them periodically and ask questions about their general eating habits- they may ask an athlete to keep a one week log of what they have eaten daily (not calorie counts but general food intake) to discuss in a meeting, and then add suggestions and furnish the athletes with general plans and guidance to supplement or address what they discover in these meetings. The same thing with sports psychologists or counselors- they don't micro-manage the athletes either. And yes every elite training camp should have both on staff or as regular consultants and center the athlete's overall well-being and not strictly performance results.

As for Kostornaia's hand injury you must be confusing me with someone else.

 

[tony]

'Make sure they are getting enough nutrition' - I'm guessing the coach shouldn't be the one doing this. So does every skater get a nutritionist (team) and have them monitor everything they are eating anyways? Because unless they are actually monitoring the eating 24/7, I don't know how that's possible. Monitoring mental health also isn't really 'easy'. Are you suggesting each skater has a psychologist, nutritionist, someone monitoring coaching sessions and eating habits, etc? Do we block social media to lessen the external pressures that might mess with all the nutritional knowledge one may have?

This isn't rocket science or how this works in practice- why do you make up these scenarios that have no basis in reality? The way that nutritionists work with elite athletes is they meet with them periodically and ask questions about their general eating habits- they may ask an athlete to keep a one week log of what they have eaten daily (not calorie counts but general food intake) to discuss in a meeting, and then add suggestions and furnish the athletes with general plans and guidance to supplement or address what they discover in these meetings. The same thing with sports psychologists or counselors- they don't micro-manage the athletes either. And yes every elite training camp should have both on staff or as regular consultants and center the athlete's overall well-being and not strictly performance results.

You know, if you want people to appreciate your personal experiences as an elite athlete, maybe just answer the question for the rest of the people who aren't expected to know specifically that the nutritionist is making them log food for a week. It's not rocket science. You wanted a reply from me to your first set of posts, you got one and I asked you questions that I'm pretty sure are valid. Not going to do that anymore since everyone should know exactly how it works every time, based on your own personal experiences.

And it takes no rocket scientist to see the constant unsubstantiated claims in this very thread that repeatedly get called out by people that otherwise have not been saying anything about Tutberidze. Maybe you are not a careful reader.

 

[MacMadame]

Am I the only one who has weighed myself almost every day for most of my life? When I was skating it helped me and it still helps me to keep fit. I have never had an eating disorder.

If I gain more than 5 pounds I just don't feel right.

Did you get weighed by your coach in a public setting and then get shamed if you gained more than 1/2 lb from the last time? There is a big difference between weighing yourself and the latter. Weighing yourself every day can still be problematic and it is something people with EDs do but I think in that case the ED causes the daily weighing, not the other way around.

I lost the rest of what I was going to say. But I do want to say that BMI is. absolutely. worthless. It was never intended to be a measure of health and definitely not a measure of health for an individual. It was created for studies. To group people of different heights into similar fatness buckets. Using on individuals is misusing it.

 

[beckab81]

Wow, this thread is just going in toxic circles and lots of people are throwing out absolutes. For SOME people, weighing themselves daily could be problematic, for SOME it could be helpful. I think most of us would agree that public daily weigh-ins would be problematic, but that is not what Eteri described.

I'm not an Eteri fan by any stretch, but it seems like some people are determined to make every statement into a sweeping indictment of her methods. I think the reality is in between "it's fine" and "it's horrific abuse", but nuance is clearly not going to do well in this thread.

 

[Japanfan]

In the book The Second Mark, it tells how Shen of Shen and Zhao was subjected to weigh-ins and once, when she was criticized for gaining too much weight, it triggered an eating disorder where she barely ate anything.

I don't remember that, but do remember that Shen drank two diet cokes on one of the rare occasions when her parents came to visit her at the facility. She was weighed after that, and the liquid weight from the cokes put her over her allowable limit.
She was punished by being required to eat in the coaches' dining room for a few week, so all the coaches could observe what she ate.

 

[Willin]

Wow, this thread is just going in toxic circles and lots of people are throwing out absolutes. For SOME people, weighing themselves daily could be problematic, for SOME it could be helpful. I think most of us would agree that public daily weigh-ins would be problematic, but that is not what Eteri described.

I'm not an Eteri fan by any stretch, but it seems like some people are determined to make every statement into a sweeping indictment of her methods. I think the reality is in between "it's fine" and "it's horrific abuse", but nuance is clearly not going to do well in this thread.

Well, they're not public in the sense that they're in front of a crowd, but the clip in her own documentary shows this is being done at least in front of Eteri's other skaters - their direct competitors on ice.

And no, there is no nuance to be had because there is no nuance needed. I don't see how promoting incorrect/harmful beliefs about weight in her skaters is anything but wrong.

 

[overedge]

For SOME people, weighing themselves daily could be problematic, for SOME it could be helpful. I think most of us would agree that public daily weigh-ins would be problematic, but that is not what Eteri described.

As stated earlier in this thread, body weight can vary from day to day for a whole bunch of reasons beyond the skater's control. Daily weigh-ins, whether they're public or private, are probably not going to produce information that's any more useful than a weekly weigh-in. Plus doing daily weigh-ins sends the message to the athlete that their weight is being watched very closely, and it better be at a certain level OR ELSE.

 

[Trillian]

Most of the 'signs' provided are rubbish, going from only Eteri skaters having injuries to only Eteri skaters retire young to this or that skater is starving.

I honestly can’t tell at this point if you’re deliberately twisting people’s words, or you truly don’t understand the difference between “all of Eteri’s skaters retire young” and “only Eteri’s skaters retire young.” You’re arguing against something nobody said in the first place.

 

[tony]

I honestly can’t tell at this point if you’re deliberately twisting people’s words, or you truly don’t understand the difference between “all of Eteri’s skaters retire young” and “only Eteri’s skaters retire young.” You’re arguing against something nobody said in the first place.

Nice to see you again. Want me to do some more homework to rebuke the earlier claims you had?

I honestly can't tell at this point if you truly don't understand that some people are arguing that Eteri's skaters retire young as if this is unusual and because of her. Maybe not at this moment, but notice how I said things were going from X to Y to Z? You quoted that part. I showed you that an entire 3 skaters had competed at Nationals past the age of 20 in the last 12 years. I understand the difference just fine. Tell the others that this thread keeps circling back to that are trying to find every little reason that sets Eteri Tutberidze apart, once again........ often with baseless claims.