Discussing Tuberidze's latest interview

[muffinplus]

Wow, this thread is just going in toxic circles and lots of people are throwing out absolutes. For SOME people, weighing themselves daily could be problematic, for SOME it could be helpful. I think most of us would agree that public daily weigh-ins would be problematic, but that is not what Eteri described.

I'm not an Eteri fan by any stretch, but it seems like some people are determined to make every statement into a sweeping indictment of her methods. I think the reality is in between "it's fine" and "it's horrific abuse", but nuance is clearly not going to do well in this thread.

People are incapable of “nuance” when it comes to anything posted about Eteri’s camp… Assumptions are immediately made, quotes are immediately mistranslated (like the Anna shrimp thing that has now become an urban legend - that Gleikhengauz praised her for eating 2 shrimp, it’s simply not reality as he never "praised" it , the video is there). A number of things from this interview have already been twisted or interpreted a certain way. People have made up their mind already… they are not interested in anything else. It‘s pretty useless to ask for nuance, because you won’t get it. And if you question the claims made, you will immediately be labeled as either ignorant/defending abuse or something else. These people are incapable of seeing anything else or not being on a high horse. All I can say is my ignore list is growing longer and longer. But once in while it does get quite tiring to read all the unsubstantiated BS.

 

[canbelto]

People are incapable of “nuance” when it comes to anything posted about Eteri’s camp… Assumptions are immediately made, quotes are immediately mistranslated (like the Anna shrimp thing that has now become an urban legend - that Gleikhengauz praised her for eating 2 shrimp, it’s simply not reality). A number of thing from this interview have already been twisted or interpreted a certain way. People have made up their mind already… they are not interested in anything else. It‘s pretty useless to ask for nuance, because you won’t get it. And if you question the claims made, you will immediately be labeled as either ignorant/defending abuse or something else. These people are incapable of seeing anything else or not being on a high horse. All I can say is my ignore list is growing longer and longer. But once in while it does get quite tiring to read all the unsubstantiated BS.

Hi Diana.

 

[muffinplus]

Hi Diana.

Lame and predictable…

 

[Trillian]

I honestly can't tell at this point if you truly don't understand that some people are arguing that Eteri's skaters retire young as if this is unusual and because of her. Maybe not at this moment, but notice how I said things were going from X to Y to Z? You quoted that part. I showed you that an entire 3 skaters had competed at Nationals past the age of 20 in the last 12 years. I understand the difference just fine. Tell the others that this thread keeps circling back to that are trying to find every little reason that sets Eteri Tutberidze apart, once again........ often with baseless claims.

I don’t recall anyone saying that only Eteri’s skaters retire young - I certainly didn’t. I can name-check forgotten junior ladies with you all day long, but that was never the point.

As far as all of Eteri’s skaters retiring young, you found data to support that it’s actually almost all the Russian girls, period. That still doesn’t make it a worldwide trend, but you make a fair point that it’s a Russia thing rather than an Eteri thing. (Again, there’s probably a chicken-or-egg conversation to be had there given her influence, but I’m not personally up for that discussion.) I think it’s deeply problematic and bad for the sport if nearly 100% of any country’s (or any coach’s) champion skaters are physically incapable of competing into adulthood. You think it’s normal and you’re not concerned. I don’t see what else there is to discuss from there. Can we just let it rest instead of circling back to restate a point that nobody ever made in the first place?

 

[purple skates]

I will admit that I have not read every post in this thread, but by scanning I don’t think this issue was raised - if it was, I apologize.

I think that the IJS system has bred this problem. IJS rewards rotation and flexibility. Females after puberty gain body mass in areas that make rotation more difficult. So if you can suppress the ravages of puberty - either through delaying it or mitigating it (ie eating disorders), maybe you can breed a champion. There’s lots of coaches and federations out there that care more about winning than their athletes - in all sports.

 

[tony]

As far as all of Eteri’s skaters retiring young, you found data to support that it’s actually almost all the Russian girls, period. That still doesn’t make it a worldwide trend, but you make a fair point that it’s a Russia thing rather than an Eteri thing. (Again, there’s probably a chicken-or-egg conversation to be had there given her influence, but I’m not personally up for that discussion.)

See, here we go. Even with evidence, you still have to throw in that it could have been her influence but you're 'not up for that discussion'! Since you know each and every skater I've mentioned as examples, let's go back to 2007. Sokolova and Volchkova were in their last competitive year, neither won Nationals. Ksenia Doronina won and then went on to Europeans and finished in 28th place. It wasn't until Alena Leonova was successful on the junior scene that Russia even got more than one Worlds spot back. Tutberidze wasn't even a serious thought until around 2011 or 2012.. the skaters were retiring younger before her and if you really need, we can go examine the skaters in the 90's and early 2000's who weren't named Butyrskaya or Slutskaya. You'll see the same thing.

I think it’s deeply problematic and bad for the sport if nearly 100% of any country’s (or any coach’s) champion skaters are physically incapable of competing into adulthood. You think it’s normal and you’re not concerned. I don’t see what else there is to discuss from there. Can we just let it rest instead of circling back to restate a point that nobody ever made in the first place?

This is another assumption. Do your homework, you know all the names. A lot of skaters are perfectly physically capable of continuing to skate but either become adults and want to move on to other things or just lose their love for skating. Some know they will never get out of the National level and don't see the point (which is a huge difference between Russia and somewhere like.. Belgium). This isn't a job. This is a very expensive hobby. Plenty of the skaters I named in my long post didn't have any mention of injury for their reason for retiring.

We aren't going to agree because you've shown in this reply that once again, it can somehow be twisted back into a hypothetical about Eteri and that you can thrown in another 'nearly 100%' which simply isn't right.

I will admit that I have not read every post in this thread, but by scanning I don’t think this issue was raised - if it was, I apologize.

I think that the IJS system has bred this problem. IJS rewards rotation and flexibility. Females after puberty gain body mass in areas that make rotation more difficult. So if you can suppress the ravages of puberty - either through delaying it or mitigating it (ie eating disorders), maybe you can breed a champion. There’s lots of coaches and federations out there that care more about winning than their athletes - in all sports.

Interesting point, and it's true that the general level of skating (across each element) is far more advanced than it was pre-IJS. No more throw-away footwork sequences, no more spins in basic positions with maybe 4 revolutions to finish the program on time, etc. But this goes back to my reply just above this - if you look at skaters who were doing well in junior or even starting out their senior careers pre-IJS, a lot of them were done by the time they were getting out of their teens. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that we simply didn't see most of those skaters because JGP events were never telecast, and if the skaters weren't in the top group at senior US Nationals, we certainly didn't see them. But it has always been around.

 

[Trillian]

if you really need, we can go examine the skaters in the 90's and early 2000's who weren't named Butyrskaya or Slutskaya. You'll see the same thing.

Slutskaya is the point, because a career like hers can’t happen now. Of course it was rare - that’s the nature of elite sports - but it wasn’t impossible before and now it is.

Some of us enjoy watching skaters develop over a period of years. None of Eteri’s skaters have been able to do that. When she’s the most dominant coach of female skaters in the world, of course we’re going to talk about it. But if the basic premise is that some of us don’t want to see these careers universally cut short and others don’t mind, this is a pointless discussion. I would love to see Medvedeva still competing; others don’t mind that her career was cut short by injuries. We’re not going to bridge that gap.

 

[On My Own]

See, here we go. Even with evidence, you still have to throw in that it could have been her influence but you're 'not up for that discussion'! Since you know each and every skater I've mentioned as examples, let's go back to 2007. Sokolova and Volchkova were in their last competitive year, neither won Nationals. Ksenia Doronina won and then went on to Europeans and finished in 28th place. It wasn't until Alena Leonova was successful on the junior scene that Russia even got more than one Worlds spot back. Tutberidze wasn't even a serious thought until around 2011 or 2012.. the skaters were retiring younger before her and if you really need, we can go examine the skaters in the 90's and early 2000's who weren't named Butyrskaya or Slutskaya. You'll see the same thing.

I must say I'm kind of confused with what's happening now, in the thread. It moved from diet to this. I agree that it's a general problem of Russian skating and not just an "Eteri thing", and there could be a lot of factors behind skaters retiring young (I don't particularly care about "competing for long" and support athletes moving on to higher education and having lives beyond their sport) - but you were also saying her comments about diet are not that problematic?

Is it my misinterpretation? Because it looks like it is possible to say that even though all Russian coaches have their own problems, Eteri's comments on diet might be the specific problem of her skaters.

 

[tony]

I must say I'm kind of confused with what's happening now, in the thread. It moved from diet to this. I agree that it's a general problem of Russian skating and not just an "Eteri thing", and there could be a lot of factors behind skaters retiring young (I don't particularly care about "competing for long" and support athletes moving on to higher education and having lives beyond their sport) - but you were also saying her comments about diet are not that problematic?

Is it my misinterpretation? Because it looks like it is possible to say that even though all Russian coaches have their own problems, Eteri's comments on diet might be the specific problem of her skaters.

I've never once said that anything she said was not problematic. I went through this thread and rebuked claim after claim and pointed out the constant 'this must be what it is and if you don't believe it then you're suporting/against [fill in the blank]'. The assumption is that anyone who points out any of these stretches of the imagination must be some diehard fan of hers. Nope. I just think it's nonsense what's being claimed here as 'fact'.

It's tiring to have to keep saying I didn't say things when it's easy for any one of you to go back and look. If you read a comment that didn't belong to me, fine. But now surely people will run with the idea because they also can't be bothered to check.

 

[On My Own]

I've never once said that anything she said was not problematic. I went through this thread and rebuked claim after claim and pointed out the constant 'this must be what it is and if you don't believe it then you're [fill in the blank]'.

It's tiring to have to keep saying I didn't say things when it's easy for any one of you to go back and look.

I mean, it's been confusing to read your posts.

Also, I don't think you said she's not problematic as a whole, but it did look like you were trying to defend her comments on diet here. If you acknowledge that there's possibility she's not applying the best practices here, then we agree. I don't see why there was debate at all, then.

 

[On My Own]

And, further, I agree namecalling is unnecessary, and it is upto interpretation what she said, and it can't be an absolute. In interviews, I often notice the coaches and athletes aren't being too careful with what they say. Maybe they should be more careful, and they can't avoid judgment, but I think some sides do take it too far (either in favor or against).

 

[tony]

I mean, it's been confusing to read your posts.

Also, I don't think you said she's not problematic as a whole, but it did look like you were trying to defend her comments on diet here. If you acknowledge that there's possibility she's not applying the best practices here, then we agree. I don't see why there was debate at all, then.

Don't put words in my mouth if you can't interpret what I write. How about that? You can always ask for clarification.

Where have I ever tried to defend her comments in this entire thread? I haven't even quoted a single thing that she's said AFAIK. I've questioned the stretch of imagination and the claims such as X skater being starved, absolutely. I've questioned that her skaters get injured at a higher rate, I've questioned the focus that her skaters are retiring early as if that's unusual. But now we are circling back to the discussions days ago, which is what happened with the poster prior to you and back into that same cycle we go.

 

[On My Own]

Where have I ever tried to defend her comments in this entire thread? I haven't even quoted a single thing that she's said AFAIK. I've questioned the stretch of imagination and the claims such as X skater being starved, absolutely.

It is perfectly possible that there was a misunderstanding. But when people are talking about her comments (and maybe exaggerating, sure) and someone comes in and says "well, not really!", I think it's understandable that you would be dragged into being called an apologist. Not fair, but that's how emotion works.

Anyway, glad if it's just a misunderstanding. As I said in my follow up, we don't know for sure, and coaches (especially when they aren't American) aren't exactly media trained. It can be refreshing... or it can be controversial.

 

[bcash]

Her students make ladies skating unwatchable. Can’t give damn as to how she trains them.

 

[briancoogaert]

Her students make ladies skating unwatchable. Can’t give damn as to how she trains them.

That's the biggest problem for me. I fond their skating unwatchable. But even for those who find it good, it's really difficult to find interest in Figure Skating when a skater you loved can only skate one or two seasons in Senior before being injured.

 

[Mayra]

Her students make ladies skating unwatchable. Can’t give damn as to how she trains them.

It's the opposite for me.

I find this woman to be incredibly toxic in her methods. The fact that her athletes are teenagers makes it even more problematic and sad.

The athletes themselves? Incredibly hard working kids, making a lot of sacrifices. While I may not like the programs, I think Valieva is a special talent and I admire Trusova's competitive drive. I hope their sacrifices pay off for them in the long run.

 

[Trillian]

But now we are circling back to the discussions days ago, which is what happened with the poster prior to you and back into that same cycle we go.

Pardon? You’re the one who referred to the conversation from several days ago in the middle of a long rehash of prior discussion. I replied to your post because you misrepresented what people (myself included) were saying. I should have let it go and that part is on me, but don’t bring something up and then claim that someone else did.

Here’s what I want to say in general about the discussion in this thread, not directed at anyone in particular: people in skating are trying really hard to create a healthier and more inclusive culture (some people, at least), but skating has had a deeply unhealthy culture for a long time. I do love the sport, but it’s all kinds of problematic. All of us who were immersed in skating as kids, even those who were dedicated fans, were influenced by that involvement in different ways. It impacted our self-perception in terms of race, gender, sexuality, social class, etc., but also a lot of our ideas about physical and mental health. We’re all seeing the same thing here, but we’re filtering it not only through our broader life experiences, but also whatever our involvement in skating taught us when we were kids. Any discussion about what is or is not healthy for children in figure skating is probably, realistically, going to descend into chaos when so many people involved haven’t finished unpacking our own experiences with the sport when we were the same age. Whatever problems there are or are not, we’re not going to solve any of them here.

 

[Hedwig]

No one can tell by looking at someone if they have an eating disorder, or if they do not have normal menses, of if they have bone thinning or other health issues.

People are speculating that the methods of a coach are problematic based on statements she has made publicly. There is a basis for that but it is provoking people here to make baseless statements about the health of individuals who they only see at a distance or in the media. This isn't a productive thing to do.

You are right. I should not have named anyone.

It is not relevant to the discussion anyway. This is not about specific skaters but - like you said - about a famous coach promoting abusive behavior. Maybe in reality she lets skaters eat good protein, fruit and makes sure they drink enough and eat at least 2.000 kcal a day - and only speaks out in public like this. Not very plausible but that is not the issue. What she is promoting and are therefore risking children and teenagers to follow is very dangerous and at times even deadly.

For anyone arguing about this and not believing it - please watch this movie: https://athleteafilm.com/

or hear the latest podcast of Gracie Gold https://www.instagram.com/p/CUFwOPglcsq/

restricting eating is so much more than just restricting food intake and the damage it can do to a person is vast.

 

[angi]

People are incapable of “nuance” when it comes to anything posted about Eteri’s camp… Assumptions are immediately made, quotes are immediately mistranslated (like the Anna shrimp thing that has now become an urban legend - that Gleikhengauz praised her for eating 2 shrimp, it’s simply not reality as he never "praised" it , the video is there). A number of things from this interview have already been twisted or interpreted a certain way. People have made up their mind already… they are not interested in anything else. It‘s pretty useless to ask for nuance, because you won’t get it. And if you question the claims made, you will immediately be labeled as either ignorant/defending abuse or something else. These people are incapable of seeing anything else or not being on a high horse. All I can say is my ignore list is growing longer and longer. But once in while it does get quite tiring to read all the unsubstantiated BS.

It's the third time you mention that this is false and I finally had some free time to check. In an interview conducted by sport24 that aired in April 2019, the interviewer mentioned seeing Anna only eat two shrimps and stating how full she is to which Daniil responded with how lucky Anna is that she's like that and is not obsessed with food like other girls are. We can argue if that's praise or not (I say it is), but regardless that's absolutely not the normal response to hearing that comment. And when you know about the history of skaters in that school and disordered eating, and when you remember that he is also the one who said that Eteri is the "nutritionist" of the group (another interview that confirms that students at sambo 70 are being weighed once a day by the way, also amazing to see he believes that eating cake will result on gaining 1-2kg instantly), it's absurd that you keep insisting that the way Sambo 70 handles nutrition and weight is normal.
You keep pushing the "nuance" angle but it seems like out of most posters here it's you who can't seem to acknowledge the nuance of the situation.

 

[muffinplus]

It's the third time you mention that this is false and I finally had some free time to check. In an interview conducted by sport24 that aired in April 2019, the interviewer mentioned seeing Anna only eat two shrimps and stating how full she is to which Daniil responded with how lucky Anna is that she's like that and is not obsessed with food like other girls are.

Except he didn't say that. This is on video. He didn't say "she is lucky to not be obsessed with food like other girls are". That's what you get for not actually bothering to watch the interview. But it's nice to twist and add the meaning when you want, when you have a specific agenda... which is what was actually done and this has since become an urban legend.

Как Загитова готовилась к ЧМ, кто самый-самый в группе Тутберидзе | Глейхенгауз в ФИГУРКЕ | Sport24

Тренер и хореограф группы Этери Тутберидзе Даниил Глейхенгауз - о себе, о том, как ставить лучшие в мире программы. О том, как шла подготовка Алины Загитово...

youtu.be

The interviewer told he about a story how Anna got full and the only thing he responded with

"Rarely it's so lucky..."

That's all..lucky what? To get full from eating so little?

At any rate, he never said those words. But yet you and others insist on repeating ad nauseum that he said she is lucky to be not obsessed with food, when again he literally never uttered those words that "she is lucky to not be obssessed with food".


It's the same way the quote about 200 grams was immediately interpreted as her saying "you MUST lose 200 grams if you gain it in a day". Or when someone said she is talking about Alina being lazy because she is dragging her through the mud and wants to deprive her of show opportunities Some "nuance"

 

[millyskate]

I don’t recall anyone saying that only Eteri’s skaters retire young - I certainly didn’t. I can name-check forgotten junior ladies with you all day long, but that was never the point.

As far as all of Eteri’s skaters retiring young, you found data to support that it’s actually almost all the Russian girls, period. That still doesn’t make it a worldwide trend, but you make a fair point that it’s a Russia thing rather than an Eteri thing. (Again, there’s probably a chicken-or-egg conversation to be had there given her influence, but I’m not personally up for that discussion.) I think it’s deeply problematic and bad for the sport if nearly 100% of any country’s (or any coach’s) champion skaters are physically incapable of competing into adulthood. You think it’s normal and you’re not concerned. I don’t see what else there is to discuss from there. Can we just let it rest instead of circling back to restate a point that nobody ever made in the first place?

To be fair the issue isn’t that Russian skaters are not capable of skating into adulthood. They are just as capable into their 20s as other nations’ skaters. It’s that there are so many young Russian skaters that the “older” ones keep getting overtaken so give up because there’s no point.

The whole scoring system is built to favour difficulty more easily performed by pre-pubescent skaters and that will a) favour young skaters b) favour skaters from areas of the world where due to genetics and diet puberty happens later (there is a massive difference from country to country on this point)

If we want to change this, like gymnastics did, we change the rules concerning minimum age. It’s that simple. You can’t expect younger skaters not to be pushed by coaches and parents looking to play the system for results. I really don’t understand people who moan about early retirements but refuse to consider changing the age. It’s a no brainer.

All of the above is not condoning the obvious problem of dietary issues in both Russian ballet and skating. It didn’t start with Eteri: I remember Navka’s interviews about weight too. It’s always been that way and it’s always been harmful but we can’t abdicate responsibility by leaving the door open to it.

If mature skaters of any country are incapable of competing even remotely closely with the young skaters, which in the women’s category they are, there is an obvious issue with the requirements of the sport. And it inherently opens the door to eating disorders as coaches /parents push athletes to strive to retain a childlike figure to stay competitive.

And like in gymnastics, standards will temporarily lower as athletes adapt after a requirement change but in time athletes will adapt and find ways of developing their skills in later years.

 

[becca]

I wouldn’t be surprised if two of the three As stay in next quad. Honestly. They are 17. Trusova and Alina seem to be okay past puberty.

I also think that if the youngsters were not Coming in with quad the current OGM might have stayed in.

But if you already won everything. And your not competive with the youngsters why stay?

 

[hanca]

I wouldn’t be surprised if two of the three As stay in next quad. Honestly. They are 17. Trusova and Alina seem to be okay past puberty.

I also think that if the youngsters were not Coming in with quad the current OGM might have stayed in.

But if you already won everything. And your not competive with the youngsters why stay?

I wouldn’t be so sure. Trusova has the best chances to remain competitive longer term (if she doesn’t have a career ending injury), but next season Scherbakova and Kostornaya without a quad will have no chance against Samodelkina, Petrosian and Muravieva, and the following year we will also have Zhilina and Akatieva. And that’s only those who have quads now. There will be much more of them by then.

 

[euterpe]

It seems as if raising the age for Seniors to 17 would be beneficial.

 

[MacMadame]

I wouldn’t be so sure. Trusova has the best chances to remain competitive longer term (if she doesn’t have a career ending injury), but next season Scherbakova and Kostornaya without a quad will have no chance against Samodelkina, Petrosian and Muravieva, and the following year we will also have Zhilina and Akatieva. And that’s only those who have quads now. There will be much more of them by then.

You are assuming all the young girls with quads will keep them as they age though.

 

[hanca]

You are assuming all the young girls with quads will keep them as they age though.

Well, Trusova has shown that it is possible to keep it. Muravieva and Samodelkina seem to jump more like Trusova - not relying on a tiny body. They both have pretty decent sized jumps, so I can’t see why they shouldn’t keep it. The only one from those I named I am not sure about is Petrosian, her jumps are tiny and I can see how she could lose her quads.

 

[On My Own]

It seems as if raising the age for Seniors to 17 would be beneficial.

I think it would encourage more eating disorders and use of drugs. The drug Leuprorelin was being discussed on FS subreddit recently, in regards to this.

I wouldn’t be so sure. Trusova has the best chances to remain competitive longer term (if she doesn’t have a career ending injury), but next season Scherbakova and Kostornaya without a quad will have no chance against Samodelkina, Petrosian and Muravieva, and the following year we will also have Zhilina and Akatieva. And that’s only those who have quads now. There will be much more of them by then.

Shcherbakova will probably retire after this season, anyway

 

[kwanfan1818]

Part of that question would be answered if the age rules are changed, what the requirements for grandfathering would be, and if the grandfathering rules take specific events into consideration, like Jr. Worlds, whether they are held.

Even if the minimum age is raised for 2022-23, if the grandfathering rules take the 2022 Jr. Worlds podium into consideration, all three of Samodelkina, Petrosian and Muravieva have an excellent chance to be grandfathered in. And if the age rules don't apply until 2023-24, then Zhilina and Akatieva will have the same opportunity at Jr. Worlds. If those events take place.

 

[tony]

Devil's advocate again maybe, but what is raising the senior age going to do? In my opinion, you're going to continue to see champions at 17 or 18, or whatever the new minimum age is. Skaters will still have the Junior Grand Prix. Even if you remove quads as an option for those juniors, they can still practice them (in preparation for seniors), they will still be doing 3+3s and put constant stress on their bodies with skating as a whole, and those junior events will still likely be just as or even more competitive than the senior events. And I still think once skaters turn 18 or approach 18, a lot of them realize they want to go somewhere different- whether it's staying in the sport in a different capacity or completely leaving it for college or whatever other reason.

If 'I really want to see the skaters last longer in their senior careers' is a top reason for wanting the age change, I just don't think it's going to do any of what some people expect. YMMV.

FWIW- a reminder here that Michelle Kwan would've been eligible for her first Worlds in 2000 if 18+ was the age requirement.

 

[VGThuy]

Wouldn't it have been 1999? She was 18 at 1999 Worlds.