Russia banned from hosting/competing at major international events for 4 years

[Yehudi]

So are you not putting stock into any American medalists in general because of the wide-spread doping convictions here?

Or is it just that you categorize Russia to all equally be terrible people?

just the ones who somehow did something that acted against Elena Ilinykh’s interests

 

[MacMadame]

So if Russia is banned from hosting international competitions, does that include the Rostelekom Grand Prix, or just Euros, Worlds, and Olympics?

It doesn't include the Grand Prix because of the criteria for what is meant by international championships that they aren't allowed to host. This was all discussed before closer to the beginning of the thread if you are interested. I would have let someone else with a better memory answer but it's two pages later and no one has.

yes, it's just wikipedia, but you get the point.

I get that you have to go back over 30 years to find an example of systematic doping in the US. So what is your solution? Ban th US from the Olympics because of what happened 30+ years ago?

Russia has systematic and state-sponsored doping NOW. That is why they are being punished NOW.

And, also, the US can't really have state-sponsored doping IMO because it doesn't have state-sponsored athletics. That doesn't mean it can't have a doping problem just that, if wide-spread doping is found, the punishment should be different because it won't be state-sponsored. It will be more like what was found with Nike's Oregon Project and with Lance Armstrong.

 

[mjb52]

These allegations came out in 2003? That's only 11 years before Sochi and there was never any kind of punishment. You know what my point is. There is a double standard. No matter what the US did, there is literally no possibility of any kind that the US would ever accept the kind of punishment that has been imposed on Russia. Not ever. Not under any circumstances.

 

[Bigbird]

These allegations came out in 2003? That's only 11 years before Sochi and there was never any kind of punishment. You know what my point is. There is a double standard. No matter what the US did, there is literally no possibility of any kind that the US would ever accept the kind of punishment that has been imposed on Russia. Not ever. Not under any circumstances.

The point is this isn't about individuals. This is about institutionalized doping. The people responsible in many cases are not individual athletes. I thought this was already discussed though. We seem to be going around in circles.

 

[MacMadame]

No matter what the US did,

But "the US" didn't do it. The USOC is not a government agency. (They are a 501c3, a private non-profit corporation.) The US government doesn't run sports in the US. That is why "the US" wasn't banned as a country.

 

[hanca]

But "the US" didn't do it. The USOC is not a government agency. (They are a 501c3, a private non-profit corporation.) The US government doesn't run sports in the US. That is why "the US" wasn't banned as a country.

I see. So when USA get involved in organised doping, that’s ok because it is not the USA that is doping so USA should not be punished. When Russia gets involved in organised doping, it is suddenly Russia as a country who should be punished. Lovely. Thanks for clarifying that!

 

[Tinami Amori]

Tell that to Bobrova. If they can recover faster from intense training it is an advantage. But I don't think they're the only ones doping, its just they're the most brazen which is what rubs persons the wrong way not to mention the other political shenanigans alluded to by Zhulin. Does he have an inner voice? I digress. Anyways large and powerful feds will always do what they do. Cest la vie.

a) Bobrova's issue was WADA's mistake. They did not test how long it takes to get the substance out of the system. Bobrova stopped taking them by the required date, but the substance remain in her system. WADA admitted is.
b) Meldonium was legal for a long time. In the West there are similar substances used for the same advantages, yet they are legal because they are developed by major pharmaceutical firms, and thus they are more expensive.

... and don't start me on major US pharmaceutical firms, and what stunts they pull to control the market..

 

[MacMadame]

So when USA get involved in organised doping, that’s ok because it is not the USA that is doping so USA should not be punished.

If it was only individuals in Russia who were doping (or individual organizations), then the entire country wouldn't be punished either. (And, if they were, I'd be indignant about it.)

When a government sponsors something, the government deserves to pay the consequences.

 

[tony]

If it was only individuals in Russia who were doping (or individual organizations), then the entire country wouldn't be punished either. (And, if they were, I'd be indignant about it.)

When a government sponsors something, the government deserves to pay the consequences.

And the teens who have practiced day in and day out to become champions or future champions should have their whole careers potentially shut down before they started because of what someone else did? The people who have been honest their whole lives should have their careers halted because of what the government chose to do with some sports?

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with anything near this logic. I don't know if you are necessarily saying that, but the comment I replied to earlier in the thread was ready to put equal blame on everyone in Russia because of the actions of few. Not how it works for me.

 

[MacMadame]

And the teens who have practiced day in and day out to become champions or future champions should have their whole careers potentially shut down before they started because of what someone else did?

I said the government should be punished. Not being able to host championships does that without hurting the athletes who can still go to the championships.

The whole Olympic thing I think is lame. "You can't compete as Russian athletes but you can compete as a Russian _____ athlete? Um, okay.

But the argument I was responding to is one that continues to assert that Russia is being unfairly picked on because they can find examples of other athletes who doped in other countries. This isn't about individual athletes, it's about what the state did and how the state is being punished.

 

[skatingguy]

These allegations came out in 2003? That's only 11 years before Sochi and there was never any kind of punishment. You know what my point is. There is a double standard. No matter what the US did, there is literally no possibility of any kind that the US would ever accept the kind of punishment that has been imposed on Russia. Not ever. Not under any circumstances.

A lot has changed in the way that doping is managed in international sports since 2003, and its not accurate to say that there was no punishment, its just that until that point only individuals, and not organizations/countries, could be held accountable for doping. So individual athletes were stripped of results, and medals, and officials were barred from involvement in sports, but there was no mechanism to hold US sporting organizations accountable. The rules, and consequences that Russia are currently facing resulted, at least in part, from what happened in the '80's & '90's & the revelations that came when Marion Jones admitted that she lied to Congress & had been doping throughout her career. In addition, WADA was only created in 1999, and really only started to have an impact by 2004. We can start to see more positive drug tests at that Olympics, and that is the first Olympics where retrospective testing is allowed so samples are stored & can be retested at a later date if evidence against specific athletes emerges or testing technology catches up to doping mechanisms. The reality of the current situation is that the Russia could end the sanctions tomorrow if officials handed over the list of athletes that were involved in the doping scheme so that results from 2013-2015 could be properly rectified & medals reassigned to the athletes that deserved them, but they don't want to do that. The ability to claim that they are a victim of some Western conspiracy is more helpful to the Putin regime, and if they hold out long enough then the consequences disappear.

 

[misskarne]

I think we're now starting to enter a gray zone. Russian skaters who will be 15 at the next Olympics would have been just 7 years old during Sochi - literal children, some of them may not even have been landing singles yet, let alone been on anyone's radar for an Olympics. For how long does this continue? Do we eventually reach a point where athletes who weren't even born during Sochi are being punished?

We also know that some of this punishment is not very above-board. What they did to Ivan Bukin is completely unconscionsable. No missed tests, no dubious tests, wasn't even at Sochi, and wasn't given any reason as to why he was forbidden. WADA has to know that from the outside, it looks like an awful power-trip.

 

[skatingguy]

I think we're now starting to enter a gray zone. Russian skaters who will be 15 at the next Olympics would have been just 7 years old during Sochi - literal children, some of them may not even have been landing singles yet, let alone been on anyone's radar for an Olympics. For how long does this continue? Do we eventually reach a point where athletes who weren't even born during Sochi are being punished?

2024 - at which point the statute of limitations will have expired.

We also know that some of this punishment is not very above-board. What they did to Ivan Bukin is completely unconscionsable. No missed tests, no dubious tests, wasn't even at Sochi, and wasn't given any reason as to why he was forbidden. WADA has to know that from the outside, it looks like an awful power-trip.

Bukin had missed tests.

 

[mjb52]

How do you know that Bukin had missed tests? Not antagonistic, just curious. I've read about this a lot and never seen any mention of that at all.

 

[skatingguy]

How do you know that Bukin had missed tests? Not antagonistic, just curious. I've read about this a lot and never seen any mention of that at all.

I can't post a source on this one, but that is the info that I've been given.

 

[misskarne]

I can't post a source on this one, but that is the info that I've been given.

How is it that you supposedly have an answer, but Bukin himself does not?

 

[skatingguy]

How is it that you supposedly have an answer, but Bukin himself does not?

I can't answer that.

 

[mjb52]

If that's the best you can do in terms of backing your statement up, it's really not right to bring it up at all and you should know better.

 

[skatingguy]

If that's the best you can do in terms of backing your statement up, it's really not right to bring it up at all and you should know better.

Why? This is a discussion board where people post about the info they have - that's what I have. If you don't want to accept the explanation that's perfectly fine.

 

[mjb52]

Things have spread from here onto the wider internet before, including harmful and very questionable info. You are starting a rumor without any proof or even any explanation of why a person in Smith Falls, Ontario would have some secret knowledge about Bukin that has never appeared anywhere else. It's really dishonorable.

 

[skatingguy]

Things have spread from here onto the wider internet before, including harmful and questionable info. You are starting a rumor without any proof or even any explanation of why a person in Smith Falls, Ontario would have some secret knowledge about Bukin that has never appeared anywhere else. It's really dishonorable.

I don't believe that I am starting a rumour, and whatever damage was done to Bukin's reputation happened when he was barred from participating in the 2018 Olympics. Missing a doping test is not that uncommon given the WADA requirements - 1 hour a day the athlete must provide their whereabouts for testers to find them. There's lot of reasons why someone might not be at the location they said they would be at the appointed hour, and I have no idea why tests were missed, and I'm not going to speculate about that.

 

[mjb52]

To be honest, you are just making me question every other thing you have said in this thread.

 

[skatingguy]

To be honest, you are just making me question every other thing you have said in this thread.

That's fair.

 

[hanca]

If it was only individuals in Russia who were doping (or individual organizations), then the entire country wouldn't be punished either. (And, if they were, I'd be indignant about it.)

When a government sponsors something, the government deserves to pay the consequences.

But in the USA, it was not only individuals either, were they!

 

[hanca]

Why? This is a discussion board where people post about the info they have - that's what I have. If you don't want to accept the explanation that's perfectly fine.

Yes, but your argument is I know the truth but I can’t tell how I know... that’s a bit questionable then whether you just made it up to make your argument look stronger. When there is a discussion, people usually can support what they say by facts. You can’t.

 

[skatingguy]

Yes, but your argument is I know the truth but I can’t tell how I know... that’s a bit questionable then whether you just made it up to make your argument look stronger. When there is a discussion, people usually can support what they say by facts. You can’t.

That's true, though I don't think this information strengthens any argument I was making because it's not really relevant to anything I've posted previously in this thread, or at least I don't think it does.

 

[skatingguy]

'Whereabouts' regulations:

2.4 Whereabouts Failures by an Athlete Any combination of three missed tests and/or filing failures, as defined in the International Standard for Results Management, within a twelve-month period by an Athlete in a Registered Testing Pool.

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/wada_2021_code_november_2019_v._wada_2021_code_june_2020_final_-_english.pdf

 

[hanca]

'Whereabouts' regulations:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/wada_2021_code_november_2019_v._wada_2021_code_june_2020_final_-_english.pdf

That’s nice, but that still doesn’t prove that Bukin missed his tests.

 

[mjb52]

That's true, though I don't think this information strengthens any argument I was making because it's not really relevant to anything I've posted previously in this thread, or at least I don't think it does.

Of course it does. Bukin's situation has been used as an example of how the process in 2018 was unfair and you are trying to hint at some nefarious missed test as justification for it, presumably to back up your previous statements about Russia. While it is true that even if there actually was a missed test, it wouldn't really be sufficient justification for keeping him off the team anyway, given that people are human, sometimes screw up, and missed tests happen, it is nonetheless quite insidious on your part to try to plant this idea in people's minds without offering any substantiation for how you would be in a position to know about it. As I said earlier, at least one person and maybe people on this board have been the cause of extremely dubious information spreading on social media before. I think with that in mind, it would be better to be more conscientious.

 

[skatingguy]

That’s nice, but that still doesn’t prove that Bukin missed his tests.

I didn't post that as proof of anything - just to provide people with the background info on what 'missing tests' means.