Missing ladies at the Olympics since 1984

[olympic]

Back on topic -

I didn't include her for whatever reason, but Kristi Yamaguchi in 1994. I think she waited until later in 1993 to finally nix the idea of competing in Lillehamer, but does anyone NOT think she would have been the prohibitive favorite?

 

[Coco]

I recall an interview with Baiul where she indicated her TFB program and costume was 100% Galina's idea. She was not a fan of the costume.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Back on topic -

I didn't include her for whatever reason, but Kristi Yamaguchi in 1994. I think she waited until later in 1993 to finally nix the idea of competing in Lillehamer, but does anyone NOT think she would have been the prohibitive favorite?

I sometimes wonder if Yamaguchi had skated in 1994, she could easily have competed either Fantasie Impromptu or Madame Butterfly. Both were excellent programs packed with enough content to match / beat Baiul.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I recall an interview with Baiul where she indicated her TFB program and costume was 100% Galina's idea. She was not a fan of the costume.

Toller Cranston, in his inimitable fashion, thought she looked like an electrified poodle.

 

[Erin]

Toller Cranston, in his inimitable fashion, thought she looked like an electrified poodle.

That was her Olympic costume, not The Feeling Begins.

 

[alchemy void]

Weren't there a few rumors Surya was interested in reinstatement for 2006? I thought I remember reading that ages ago. Or am I imagining things?

She still was in phenomenal shape in 2005-2006, and her jumps were much better than they were in '98. Here's a clean 3lutz in a 2005 exhibition (it's cheated but I'm giving her a pass as the rink is tiny and Maxime Rodriguez is wandering around right near her), and she was regularly landing huge toes, sals, and loops in 04-05. I'm not sure if she ever got the flip back, but regardless, I think she could have had an outside shot at bronze, which would have been a hell of a story and added a lot of intrigue to a lackluster event that I didn't even watch until years later.

I think she could have done alright with this version of IJS. I think a short program with 3T3T and 3Lz (maybe even 3Lo) could have placed her in the final group. She really could have racked up GOE on the easier triples as her salchow and toe are huge and look better than ever. Not to mention, her performance ability was really exceptional by this point. Watching a few of her exhibitions from this era, and I'm really impressed by how well presented and choreographed they are, and I normally don't care for gala programs at all. I think it's possible she could have made up ground with top-level PCS scores.

We all know how the LP went. I don't think it's a stretch to think that a fun, exciting, well-skated program with 6 triples from Surya could have been in Slutskaya and Cohen territory for that segment.

Of course, this is very much a best-case scenario, but I do think a top 6 placement would have been MUCH more likely, even probable. And she really would have needed to skate the entire 2005-2006 season to get a hang of IJS with a proper coach (sorry, Mom). France didn't even qualify a spot for this Olympics at 2005 Worlds and didn't even come close at the qualifying event. Poor Candice Didier. Looking at the scores from 2005 Karl Schafer, Surya could have qualified a spot for the Olympics with a blindfold on.

It's a fun hypothetical, for sure. Like I mentioned earlier, a 33 year old with a decent shot at bronze would have made that event so much more exciting.

 

[Vagabond]

QUOTE="alchemy void, post: 5801707, member: 1709"]
Weren't there a few rumors Surya was interested in reinstatement for 2006? I thought I remember reading that ages ago. Or am I imagining things?
[/QUOTE]
It seems unlikely to me that Bonaly was seriously interested in reinstatement.

First, France didn't have an entry into the Ladies competition at the 2006 Winter Olympics. If I remember correctly, the qualifying competition was Nebelhorn and neither Gwendoline Didier nor Candice Didier was in form, so the FFSG did not send anyone there. If Bonaly had wanted to compete in Turin, she would have been best served by coming back in the fall of 2004, as she would otherwise have had difficulties in getting sent to Nebelhorn.

Second, COP would have worked against her. She didn't have the skating skills, choreography, or non-jump elements of the three medalists. Downgraded triples were marked as doubles and given negative GOE. And she also would have been marked down for telegraphing her jumps. There would have been no guarantee that Bonaly skating at was then her best would have made the top six, let alone the top three, even given how the women who did compete skated.

 

[tony]

It was Karl Schafer as the qualifying competition in 2005, and Candice Didier was way down in the standings so no French spot. She would've been third in line to automatically qualify based on 2005 Worlds. And then in an ironic twist in so many ways, she very famously injured herself mid-performance in 2009 Worlds, did too many double Axels after going on with her program and lost credit for an entire jumping block, and once again (just narrowly) became the very first person to lose out on a spot for their country automatically in the 2010 Olympics. Then Gwendoline Didier tanked Nebelhorn in the fall and once again, no spot for France in the Olympics.

 

[alchemy void]

First, France didn't have an entry into the Ladies competition at the 2006 Winter Olympics. If I remember correctly, the qualifying competition was Nebelhorn and neither Gwendoline Didier nor Candice Didier was in form, so the FFSG did not send anyone there. If Bonaly had wanted to compete in Turin, she would have been best served by coming back in the fall of 2004, as she would otherwise have had difficulties in getting sent to Nebelhorn.

I addressed all of this in my initial post:

France didn't even qualify a spot for this Olympics at 2005 Worlds and didn't even come close at the qualifying event. Poor Candice Didier. Looking at the scores from 2005 Karl Schafer, Surya could have qualified a spot for the Olympics with a blindfold on.

French ladies skating was at its lowest level in this era. If Surya had wanted to come back, I think that Karl Schafer spot would have been hers.

Second, COP would have worked against her. She didn't have the skating skills, choreography, or non-jump elements of the three medalists. Downgraded triples were marked as doubles and given negative GOE. And she also would have been marked down for telegraphing her jumps. There would have been no guarantee that Bonaly skating at was then her best would have made the top six, let alone the top three, even given how the women who did compete skated.

Insert Debbie Downer gif here....

I disagree on skating skills and choreography, as she improved substantially in these areas since the late 90s. She was doing unique and difficult entries into huge toe loops and salchows, which would have warranted big GOE. It would have been interesting to see what kind of spin and footwork levels she could have managed, maybe she could have gotten the levels, maybe not. Yes, a bronze was improbable, but not totally impossible. And I think top 6 was still doable, especially having re-watched Meissner's set of programs from this competition.

 

[VGThuy]

I think she had the skating skills of at least Cohen, especially as she developed that as a pro.

 

[alchemy void]

I think she had the skating skills of at least Cohen, especially as she developed that as a pro.

Agreed. She would have skated circles around most of the ladies here. Yes, it's difficult to judge skating skills on youtube, but it's clear her basics improved so much from the late 90s. She was skating with so much speed in this era, which would positively impact her components.

 

[Vagabond]

@alchemy void If it's any consolation to you, I think Bonaly would have made up in backflips what she lacked in triple flips.

 

[Coco]

We saw her in some made for tv tournament in Auburn Hills, MI...2001?2002? She was facing off with Kristi Yamaguichi. She literally covered 2-3 times as much ice. Her skating skills were amazeballs by that point in time. She improved dramatically as a pro skater, especially once her injuries were healed.

 

[Taso]

We saw her in some made for tv tournament in Auburn Hills, MI...2001?2002? She was facing off with Kristi Yamaguichi. She literally covered 2-3 times as much ice. Her skating skills were amazeballs by that point in time. She improved dramatically as a pro skater, especially once her injuries were healed.

Similarly I saw Surya in 2002 and was equally impressed. At COI the day I went in Philadelphia in 2002 the other ladies were Slutskaya, Kwan, Hughes, and Cohen. She was the fastest that day by far - which is a big deal when considering the calibre of the other ladies we were talking about - the best spins, the best jumps, biggest presence and ability to capture attention (for me at least). Kwan had the best spiral, Slutskaya had the best footwork....but really she shone. There's many reasons she was on that tour for so long stacking up so well against the stars of that era! Really the only two skates that stood out to me moreso were Kazakova & Dmitriev (the puppet routine to 'The Matrix' was spectacular) and actually Johnny Weir's exhibition - and this was in cast of what, 20 different performers?

 

[VGThuy]

If only she developed that skill as a competitive skater. I think she could have won Worlds and been an even bigger contender for the 1994 and possibly 1998 Olympics. Wasn't she also forced to skate while injured which hurt her chances leading up to 1998?

 

[alchemy void]

We saw her in some made for tv tournament in Auburn Hills, MI...2001?2002? She was facing off with Kristi Yamaguichi. She literally covered 2-3 times as much ice. Her skating skills were amazeballs by that point in time. She improved dramatically as a pro skater, especially once her injuries were healed.

Similarly I saw Surya in 2002 and was equally impressed. At COI the day I went in Philadelphia in 2002 the other ladies were Slutskaya, Kwan, Hughes, and Cohen. She was the fastest that day by far - which is a big deal when considering the calibre of the other ladies we were talking about - the best spins, the best jumps, biggest presence and ability to capture attention (for me at least).

Thank you for confirming her ice coverage and speed! It's nice to confirm the apparent crazy speed shown in videos of this era. She should have cleaned up in PCS in 06, particularly looking at everyone other than Arakawa and Cohen. Combine her basics, presence, and excitement with big jumps and I still maintain she's in contention for a top 5 placement here.

 

[bardtoob]

Surya pulled off the best 3Lz of her career at the 2000 World Pro.

[HD] Surya Bonaly - 2000 World Pro - Technical Program - Ninkou Latora - Cirque du Soleil

Surya Bonaly / Сурия Бонали / スルヤ・ボナリーWorld Professional Figure Skating Championships, MCI Center, Washington DC, Dec 08-09, 20002000 世界プロフィギュア選手権Мировой пр...

www.youtube.com

If you watch it in slow motion, you can see the notable excitement in her face, like she never had had the sensation of doing a clean 3Lz before.

 

[tony]

Surya pulled off the best 3Lz of her career at the 2000 World Pro.

[HD] Surya Bonaly - 2000 World Pro - Technical Program - Ninkou Latora - Cirque du Soleil

Surya Bonaly / Сурия Бонали / スルヤ・ボナリーWorld Professional Figure Skating Championships, MCI Center, Washington DC, Dec 08-09, 20002000 世界プロフィギュア選手権Мировой пр...

www.youtube.com

If you watch it in slow motion, you can see the notable excitement in her face, like she never had had the sensation of doing a clean 3Lz before.

You don’t even need to watch her in slomo- just listen to her scream.

 

[tony]

Thank you for confirming her ice coverage and speed! It's nice to confirm the apparent crazy speed shown in videos of this era. She should have cleaned up in PCS in 06, particularly looking at everyone other than Arakawa and Cohen. Combine her basics, presence, and excitement with big jumps and I still maintain she's in contention for a top 5 placement here.

Also, it’s like everyone forgot that 2005-2010 or so was even a thing and that the judges were highly unlikely to put anyone over the 8 range in PCS. Chan and Buttle were receiving PCS similar to Joubert in those days, if not lower. The three ladies on the podium in ‘06 had a bit of a cushion, but not really a runaway from the rest of the field. Bonaly having strong technical content wasn’t going to be tremendously off-set by low PCS because almost all of them were clumped together.

 

[gkelly]

Skating Skills program component criteria:

Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision foot
Flow and effortless glide
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Multi directional skating
Mastery of one foot skating

Speed is part of that, but a fast skater won't get top scores without most of the rest of it.

 

[tony]

Skating Skills program component criteria:

Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision foot
Flow and effortless glide
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Multi directional skating
Mastery of one foot skating

Speed is part of that, but a fast skater won't get top scores without most of the rest of it.

See above. The judges didn’t know what they were doing with PCS at all back then and if anyone disagrees, I’ll point you to many different examples of such. Slutskaya scoring in line with Arakawa and Cohen in PCS in the free skate is a great starting point.

Also, on my HD I have the original COP files from 2003, and back then, skating skills were defined as:

Overall skating quality
Multi directional skating
Speed and power
Cleanliness and sureness of edges (steps)
Glide and flow

That was it as far as the singles skaters were concerned.

 

[Vagabond]

Surya pulled off the best 3Lz of her career at the 2000 World Pro.

just listen to her scream.

Elena Liashenko meets........................ Tara Lipinski!

 

[screech]

Also, it’s like everyone forgot that 2005-2010 or so was even a thing and that the judges were highly unlikely to put anyone over the 8 range in PCS. Chan and Buttle were receiving PCS similar to Joubert in those days, if not lower.

It always blew my mind that Jeff won 2008 Worlds on the technical mark, scoring highest in TES in both programs (not something anyone ever really expected from him). Joubert beat him in PCS in both the SP (2nd in PCS despite being 6th overall, vs Jeff's 1st overall, 6th in PCS), and in the FP (1st in PCS, second overall; Jeff 2nd in PCS, 1st overall).

 

[VGThuy]

It always blew my mind that Jeff won 2008 Worlds on the technical mark, scoring highest in TES in both programs (not something anyone ever really expected from him). Joubert beat him in PCS in both the SP (2nd in PCS despite being 6th overall, vs Jeff's 1st overall, 6th in PCS), and in the FP (1st in PCS, second overall; Jeff 2nd in PCS, 1st overall).

Me too. For me, 2008 Worlds was an important competition for me in terms of learning IJS and how my idea for PCS differed from the reality of how judges actually use PCS.

 

[tony]

Me too. For me, 2008 Worlds was an important competition for me in terms of learning IJS and how my idea for PCS differed from the reality of how judges actually use PCS.

2009 Worlds was a real breaking point in how flawed the system was at the time IMO. We complain about PCS now, but the men’s results there PCS-wise (and overall really) leave so much to be desired. For example, Chan (who was already far and away the most quality skater aside from maybe Kozuka) scored 36.95 PCS in the short- so somewhere in the low to mid 7s average and just about the same as Tomas Verner. Joubert won the PCS at 38.40 just barely ahead of Lysacek, and none of them had any component in the 8’s. On top of that, all of Chan’s technical elements should’ve scored really high. How he didn’t run away with that short, let alone not even finish 1st or 2nd, is beyond me.

Brandon Mroz (8th) who I’m sure is a lovely person, was nowhere near the quality of any of these skaters and he was at 33.80 as a reference to how clumped together they all were.

In the free skate, Chan was again third-best in PCS, and the nearly 3 points advantage Lysacek had there combined with the PCS lead in the SP were enough to give him the win on that and that alone.

As another reference, the skaters 2-5 in the LP there only were separated by 2 points in PCS. and Contesti, bless him and his Cotton Eyed Joe free skate that was a ton of fun, was included in that close grouping.

The IJS scoring from 2005 to 2010 is so ridiculous that I don’t really agree with any of the results in that time frame, to be honest. And this wasn’t a case of retrospectively looking back and not agreeing- I think it was just as baffling back then.

 

[VGThuy]

2009 Worlds was a real breaking point in how flawed the system was at the time IMO. We complain about PCS now, but the men’s results there PCS-wise (and overall really) leave so much to be desired. For example, Chan (who was already far and away the most quality skater aside from maybe Kozuka) scored 36.95 PCS in the short- so somewhere in the low to mid 7s average and just about the same as Tomas Verner. Joubert won the PCS at 38.40 just barely ahead of Lysacek, and none of them had any component in the 8’s. On top of that, all of Chan’s technical elements should’ve scored really high. How he didn’t run away with that short, let alone not even finish 1st or 2nd, is beyond me.

Brandon Mroz (8th) who I’m sure is a lovely person, was nowhere near the quality of any of these skaters and he was at 33.80 as a reference to how clumped together they all were.

In the free skate, Chan was again third-best in PCS, and the nearly 3 points advantage Lysacek had there combined with the PCS lead in the SP were enough to give him the win on that and that alone.

As another reference, the skaters 2-5 in the LP there only were separated by 2 points in PCS. and Contesti, bless him and his Cotton Eyed Joe free skate that was a ton of fun, was included in that close grouping.

The IJS scoring from 2005 to 2010 is so ridiculous that I don’t really agree with any of the results in that time frame, to be honest. And this wasn’t a case of retrospectively looking back and not agreeing- I think it was just as baffling back then.

I think that was my least favorite period of skating since I've been watching. I wasn't too hot on the follow-up period either though.

 

[Marco]

Yamaguchi for 1994 is interesting (and scary) in so many ways. If Yamaguchi took 1993 off and only returned in 1994, she could very possibly have been the [/another] target of the whack instead [/on top] of Kerrigan, since Harding would have been pushed down to 3rd in the pecking order, with only 2 spots available.

If Yamaguchi had competed in 1993 as well, the US could have potentially retained 3 spots for the ladies even with Kerrigan's meltdown. It looked like Harding would have had a very good chance at the last spot to Lillehammer with or without Yamaguchi. [Then again, if they felt the whack was necessary with 2 spots and just Kerrigan, they probably would feel that the whack would still be necessary with 3 spots and Kerrigan and Yamaguchi.].

Also, if Yamaguchi competed in 1993, would Baiul have won Worlds and set herself up nicely for Lillehammer? Baiul was almost the default winner with 5 triples and no combos, since Kerrigan had a meltdown and the judges didn't feel Bonaly or Chen were worthy.

All in all, Yamaguchi definitely could have gotten the big jumps down as she showed in her pro comps, and without Ito, her 2 3lutzes would have been very powerful.

 

[Marco]

Bonaly in 2006 - I don't know. 2006 weighted complex spins, steps and spirals very heavily. I don't think she could manage that, since even Kwan couldn't. Cohen and Slutskaya had so much momentum and COP-cred that a much cleaner Suguri couldn't pass them. I am guessing Kwan and Bonaly would have been in the same category. I doubt Bonaly would have been able to demonstrate the same sort of speed and coverage if she had to incorporate transitions and complex steps into her programs.

 

[VGThuy]

I think it was pretty clear that Tonya (or her cronies) wanted to be the sole viable American left going into Lillehammer since she felt she would finally get USFS backing and thus the scores that way. It wasn't enough to just make the team but to be essentially the only choice or solid number 1 choice. I also felt Tonya respected Yamaguchi's skating in a way that she never respected Nancy's. Likewise, Kristi was never hesitant to praise Tonya's skating even post-whack.

 

[Marco]

I think it was pretty clear that Tonya (or her cronies) wanted to be the sole viable American left going into Lillehammer since she felt she would finally get USFS backing and thus the scores that way. It wasn't enough to just make the team but to be essentially the only choice or solid number 1 choice. I also felt Tonya respected Yamaguchi's skating in a way that she never respected Nancy's. Likewise, Kristi was never hesitant to praise Tonya's skating even post-whack.

That is understandable. Respect is the right word. Yamaguchi was always able to deliver enough during 91-92 and got at least 5 triples guaranteed. She didn't have the axel but got the 2 3lutzes and the harder combos that not even Harding herself managed in competition. In contrast, Kerrigan's bigger medals in the same period were mostly with mistake-prone subpar performances.

Ironically Harding didn't get more momentum in 94 NOT because Kerrigan was strong and dominant but because of her own downfall in 93. She had no basis to whine about the Fed's lack of support for her in 94. If she had remained consistent in 93 and medaled at Worlds, chances were the US Fed would back her more than they did Kerrigan, esp after the latter's meltdown at Worlds. And it transpired that Kerrigan got stronger and more consistent in 94, whereas even though Harding also somewhat returned to form, everyone including the judges had already seen through her BS.