U.S. Pairs 2019-20 season - News & Updates, Part X

[MacMadame]

That is between Cain & Le Duc and Calalang & Johnson. I was talking about picking between Cain & Le Duc and Kayne and O'Shay.

Also, my comment about looking at scores vs. placements was to @nylynnr. I also think the International committee looks at scores. So his comparisons were not what they were looking at IMO.

 

[aftershocks]

I think, in order to be named to the world team outright in Greensboro, C & J would have had to have landed their side-by-side salchows in the short. Everything else being equal, that would likely have given them the win.

You mean breaking the relative tie between C/J and G-G/L in the BOW Tier categories. The other part of this is C-G/L's Worlds experience; their U.S. championship win last year (and they previously placed 3rd and 4th before landing in 4th again this year vs C/J's 5th and 2nd placements in two appearances); C-G/L also were 9th, 2nd and 4th in three 4CCs appearances vs no 4CCs experience by C/J.

And as you reference, C-G/L placed slightly ahead of C/J in this year's sp at U.S. Nats. Not to mention whatever political factors were involved, which would perhaps include consideration of the starting order disadvantage C/J would face at Worlds (not that it couldn't be overcome, but early starting orders can impact judges' scoring).

Apart from BOW guidelines, the selection committee apparently still has the discretion to make any decision they prefer I suppose. And in addition to the scoring comparisons mentioned by Dobre, C-G/L have a higher base value on their elements.

Attending 4CCs will give C/J an opportunity to continue building their resume and their confidence internationally. Then they will have an opportunity to return to their home rink and get a head start on preparing for next season, which they could slam dunk in a big way.

Although we can debate and predict, we can't know event outcomes in advance. That's why we watch.

ETA: I don't envy the selection committee the responsibility they hold to make these tough assignment decisions.

Then why aren't they [C-G/L] on the alternate list for 4CCs?

All we can do is guess. Or you could ask the selection committee and grow old waiting for a response.

I would guess that U.S. fed hopes C-G/L will go home and regroup for Worlds rather than expending any extra energy around being named as alternates to 4CCs, which would be a distraction and a tough turnaround, IMO. Meanwhile, Haven/Brandon are first alternates to 4CCs surely to reward them for their good showing on the GP and their overal BOW, while Lu/Mitrofanov and Serafini/Tran are 2nd and 3rd alternates to 4CCs to reward them for their good results this season.

 

[nylynnr]

Also, my comment about looking at scores vs. placements was to @nylynnr. I also think the International committee looks at scores. So his comparisons were not what they were looking at IMO.

Even if the committee were to drill down to 2019 GP scores, C-G & L outscored K & O on the Grand Prix by virtue of their big score in France. And even if you exclude Salt Lake City, C-G & L defeated K & O at Golden Spin. Plus, their 2019 U.S. Champs and Four Continents placements/scores -- not to mention 2019 worlds -- are also considered. You could have a very long meeting and study the bios of the tech panels at each event, and the breakdown of the judging panels, but I don't think that's practical.

I don't think under the criteria set forth K & O entered into the world team debate.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Right, we posted at about the same time.

I was talking about picking between Cain & Le Duc and Kayne and O'Shay.

C-G/L vs Kayne/O'Shea under the BOW criteria would be close, but C-G/L would still come ahead overall:

C-G/L 4th, 5th on 2020 GP; K/O two 6th places on 2020 GP

C-G/L 1st Golden Spin; K/O 2nd Golden Spin

C-G/L 1st 2019 U.S. Nats; K/O 4th 2019 U.S. Nats

C-G/L 4th 2020 U.S. Nats; K/O 3rd 2020 U.S. Nats

C-G/L 1st US Intl FS Classic; K/O 4th US Intl FS Classic

Also,
C-G/L 4th at 2019 4CCs; K/O 6th at 2019 4CCs

K/O 1st at 2018 4CCs; C-G/L 2nd (but 1st in the sp) at 2018 4CCs

As well, K/O placed 13th in their only appearance at Worlds in 2016, contrasted by C-G/L placing 9th at Worlds last year. While K/O may have better lifts overall, C-G/L have better speed, and more base value difficulty on their elements, as well as better lines and power (albeit that overall competitive results are fairly close and K/O have longer experience as partners).

 

[mattiecat13]

Honestly, I have more of an issue with the Knierims going to worlds. They’ve been to worlds four times and their placements have gotten lower at each appearance. They finished 15th in 2018. Chris rarely lands a triple and I get the feeling he is only continuing to skate because Alexa wants it so much. However, I see the wisdom in letting them go this year along with CG/L so neither team has all the pressure to retain Worlds spots on their shoulders. My hope is both teams perform well and retain at least two spots for 2021.

 

[aftershocks]

Honestly, I have more of an issue with the Knierims going to worlds. They’ve been to worlds four times and their placements have gotten lower at each appearance. They finished 15th in 2018. Chris rarely lands a triple and I get the feeling he is only continuing to skate because Alexa wants it so much. However, I see the wisdom in letting them go this year along with CG/L so neither team has all the pressure to retain Worlds spots on their shoulders...

Chris has a very laid-back character and personality, which IMO doesn't give us clues on how passionate he may be about skating. I'm not sure why a number of fans have expressed the opinion that Chris is only continuing to compete in order to please Alexa.

Take a look at Alexa's recent Instagram post, as linked by ANL in post #824:
"Plopped my intestines on the table, cut out the bad pieces... 6 weeks later I decided to GET UP and chase our dreams..."

I also earlier linked Ashley's recent Instagram post, honoring her competitors:
"Teammates. Competitors. Friends. Each team has their own story, their own journey, their own goals. I feel lucky to be surrounded by people who have shared the same amount of blood, sweat, and tears I have for this sport, who have poured their hearts into something that isn’t always easy. I have the utmost respect for all of them as athletes, as people, and as teammates."

The below sampling of comments on Ash's post should give us positive reflections on the tough battle we witnessed at U.S. Nationals this past week:

"All of you are amazing humans." -- Sean Rabbitt

"All of you are so lucky to be surrounded by each other. Stay close. Hug. Cry. Laugh."

"I love this so much. ♥ You have the best attitude icegirlash! Thanks for being a positive role model."

"Beautiful. ♥ Congratulations to all of you!

... My hope is both teams perform well and retain at least two spots for 2021.

I'm fully on board with that sentiment, and then some!

The opportunity to keep trying is what athletes fight for. Those who achieve some or all of their dreams are the ones who never give up.

 

[overedge]

Those who achieve some or all of their dreams are the ones who never give up.

Hallmark Cards called. They want their cliches back.

 

[aftershocks]

Hallmark Cards called. They want their cliches back.

Writing for greeting cards is a good gig. Better yet, making my own.

Ah well, there's always the naysayers ready to come in and look down their noses at positive sentiments and celebratory takes. I guess the better to stir things up and stick pins in hopeful outlooks.

Par for the course.

I guess I'm full of cliches. But they're cliches for good reasons. And yet, I truly dislike hearing the word 'gel' used so repeatedly to describe how both pairs and ice dance partners evolve and make successful strides.

 

[Dobre]

Cain-Gribble & Le Duc
212.36--2019 Nationals
205.58--2019 U.S. Classic
199.43--2019 Golden Spin
197.12--2020 Nationals
196.82--2019 Four Continents
195.78--2019 Internationaux de France
193.81--2019 Worlds
177.54--2019 Skate America

Kayne & O'Shea
204.07--2020 Nationals
198.64--2019 Nationals
194.29--2019 Golden Spin
180.36--2019 Four Continents
178.79--2019 Cup of China
178.73--2019 NHK Trophy
174.02--2019 U.S. Classic

 

[PRlady]

Honestly, I have more of an issue with the Knierims going to worlds. They’ve been to worlds four times and their placements have gotten lower at each appearance. They finished 15th in 2018. Chris rarely lands a triple and I get the feeling he is only continuing to skate because Alexa wants it so much. However, I see the wisdom in letting them go this year along with CG/L so neither team has all the pressure to retain Worlds spots on their shoulders. My hope is both teams perform well and retain at least two spots for 2021.

My preference for Ashley/Tim over the Knierims has a lot to do with Chris looking like he’s heading to the dentist for a root canal.

 

[nylynnr]

My preference for Ashley/Tim over the Knierims has a lot to do with Chris looking like he’s heading to the dentist for a root canal.

It's curious how we all have different perceptions. I have always thought Chris was the driving force in the couple's continuation of their competitive career.

 

[wickedwitch]

My preference for Ashley/Tim over the Knierims has a lot to do with Chris looking like he’s heading to the dentist for a root canal.

Yep. I prefer to watch teams where both partners are engaging performers. That's always been my issue with the Knierims.

 

[yeslek]

Honestly, I have more of an issue with the Knierims going to worlds.

Lol what!!! That’s absurd.

 

[aftershocks]

Since I'm told I have a knack for 'cliches,' I just had to share this creative turn-of-phrase I came across on another site. It's so apt, and something to reflect upon, especially for the mean-spirited naysayers, provocateurs, and constantly negative nancy critics among us:

"Just when you think karma is a bi*ch, she gifts you with puppies..."

 

[AxelAnnie]

It's curious how we all have different perceptions. I have always thought Chris was the driving force in the couple's continuation of their competitive career.

Oh I would find that so hard to believe. I can't imagine that Chris is the driving force in anything.....and YES, I know that is my opinion....not based in any fact.

 

[Yazmeen]

Oh I would find that so hard to believe. I can't imagine that Chris is the driving force in anything.....and YES, I know that is my opinion....not based in any fact.

Back before freelance, when I was working in medical communications full-time, I supervised a medical writer who is the living definition of the "quiet man" (I almost thought he was on the spectrum when I first met him -he's a sweetheart but rather awkward). He was an excellent writer, fierce in making sure his work stood out in his own quiet way, and now works as a medical director in this setting, where his personality sometimes get misconstrued as meaning he's not as good as the dynamic personalities. But he truly is great at what he does - being less out there and loud doesn't mean you're not excellent.

 

[PRlady]

Chris' body language is so hangdog and sheepish (TWO animal analogies for the price of one) around his wife. I certainly agree that quiet people can be powerful, and it's also true that marriages only really make sense to the two people in them, but I'd never mark him as a fierce guy in any way.

 

[nylynnr]

Chris' body language is so hangdog and sheepish (TWO animal analogies for the price of one) around his wife. I certainly agree that quiet people can be powerful, and it's also true that marriages only really make sense to the two people in them, but I'd never mark him as a fierce guy in any way.

I've spent some time with them, and don't see this at all, but everyone interprets things differently. He's not particularly quiet, either.

 

[Spiralgraph]

The only time I remember any fierceness on Chris's part was at 2018 Nationals immediately after their LP when Andrea Joyce interviewed them. Andrea tried to ask Alexa questions but she was so emotional she was weeping, so Chris took over and answered Andrea's questions instead. Andrea Joyce can be very intrusive at times..
But mostly, yeah Chris does look like he's fading into the wallpaper.

 

[Yazmeen]

I've spent some time with them, and don't see this at all, but everyone interprets things differently. He's not particularly quiet, either.

This doesn't surprise me - I still see my former employee at minor league baseball games as we've remained friends, and he's as animated as can be in a ballpark!!!!!

 

[LarrySK8]

Chris Knierim has the same triple jump weakness compared to his partner that his coach had - Todd was never as good at the triples as Jenni and that really held them back. The Knierims added Raf to the coaching staff off season to try and get Chris his triples, but apparently to no avail.

The issue may be that Chris is a big, muscular pair skater, and a skater with big arm, shoulder, upper back, back, latissimus, etc muscles can not rotate as quickly. His best bet is to jump higher, go for less distance and land the jumps. However, this does not match AT ALL with Alexa's technique.

Think Nicholas Nadeau of Canada - pair skater physique, great jumps. But he is lefty, too bad for the pair world - he would be a great partner.

It is their weakness and probably always will be unless Alexa can change her technique, re-learn everything to match him, and they go on.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Honestly, I have more of an issue with the Knierims going to worlds. They’ve been to worlds four times and their placements have gotten lower at each appearance. They finished 15th in 2018. Chris rarely lands a triple and I get the feeling he is only continuing to skate because Alexa wants it so much. However, I see the wisdom in letting them go this year along with CG/L so neither team has all the pressure to retain Worlds spots on their shoulders. My hope is both teams perform well and retain at least two spots for 2021.

Its more than just the jump. They have stellar "everything else."

You could also say dont send CG&L because she underrotates or two-foots her throws or dont send K&O because they skate too small or dont send D&F because they double and last time they went to worlds they didnt qualify for the free.

This cake has been sliced so many times I feel like its pointless.

Knierms have lots of things going for them. Plus they are the only US team to get their booties to a GP Final since Lincoln was President.

tee-hee

 

[Wyliefan]

being less out there and loud doesn't mean you're not excellent.

I've spent much of my career trying to convince my employers of exactly that. People don't always realize just how deeply ingrained is the suspicion of introverts and quiet people in general. If we're seeing introversion become more trendy now (I've seen people complain that there's too much pro-introvert content all over the place now), it's a natural backlash against some of this. All that to say, I feel for your former employee and for anyone, skater or otherwise, who gets underestimated because of a quiet/reserved/hangdog demeanor.

 

[PRlady]

I've spent much of my career trying to convince my employers of exactly that. People don't always realize just how deeply ingrained is the suspicion of introverts and quiet people in general. If we're seeing introversion become more trendy now (I've seen people complain that there's too much pro-introvert content all over the place now), it's a natural backlash against some of this. All that to say, I feel for your former employee and for anyone, skater or otherwise, who gets underestimated because of a quiet/reserved/hangdog demeanor.

What's really unfair is that I'm a misanthropic introvert who comes off as a loud, talkative extrovert. I've been masquerading my entire life. One reason I love hanging out with quiet introverts like @BlueRidge is that she never thinks I'm depressed if I'm lowkey.

 

[nylynnr]

All that to say, I feel for your former employee and for anyone, skater or otherwise, who gets underestimated because of a quiet/reserved/hangdog demeanor.

Skaters certainly can be reserved off-ice, even hangdog. If you have a hangdog demeanor on ice, especially if you are an ice dancer performing to a sprightly tune, that will be a big problem. Many a skater has been accused of lacking personality ("sparkle" "warmth") and it's hurt careers.

Likewise, if you're sitting in a meeting at work with a sour look, and don't participate, that may not do you any favors. Sometimes you have to make adjustments, in order to succeed; or, if you are fortunate/possess a special skill, arrange your life to suit your personality.

 

[Yazmeen]

Likewise, if you're sitting in a meeting at work with a sour look, and don't participate, that may not do you any favors. Sometimes you have to make adjustments, in order to succeed; or, if you are fortunate/possess a special skill, arrange your life to suit your personality.

There's a big difference between what you just described and being quiet. In fact, you just perpetuated the stereotype many people have about quiet folks. That did not describe my friend and employee at all.

 

[nylynnr]

There's a big difference between what you just described and being quiet. In fact, you just perpetuated the stereotype many people have about quiet folks. That did not describe my friend and employee at all.

I was referring to the "hangdog" expression being potentially pragmatic .... no idea about your friend/employee at all.

 

[Yazmeen]

I was referring to the "hangdog" expression being potentially pragmatic .... no idea about your friend/employee at all.

I was referring to your sour look/not participating part. That's not "quiet."

 

[Lizziebeth]

My sister had four kids. Only one was not much of a talker. She could drive him somewhere and he would just be lost in his thoughts and she would have time to think herself. Her other wonderful kids were more of the talking type. You bet there were times she really enjoyed that quiet son. He is very intelligent but he kinda keeps it to himself.

 

[aftershocks]

What's really unfair is that I'm a misanthropic introvert

Hmmm, so is this why you not so secretly dislike the Knierims and point accusing fingers at Chris for his 'body language' that you perceive as being 'hangdog and sheepish'?

Chris' body language is so hangdog and sheepish (TWO animal analogies for the price of one) around his wife.

My take is that Chris adores his wife and he's extremely grateful he didn't lose her to that scary illness a few years ago. Alexa also demonstrates how much she adores her husband! Together they decided to make the necessary sacrifices to continue fighting for their skating dreams and goals. That takes a lot of courage and inner strength. This couple have been through a lot and they at least deserve our full respect, if some of you can't muster any admiration.

But mostly, yeah Chris does look like he's fading into the wallpaper.

Ummm, your view. I find Chris rather charming. He's laconic and laid-back, but at times he's also animated, and he has a sweet smile. He's a solid pairs guy, along with being tall, dark and handsome.

Where Chris is concerned, I think still waters run deep.

In the case of Todd Sand, he's tall, blond and handsome. I'm sure Todd has been able to impart a wealth of knowledge to Chris with them both dealing/ having dealt with being tall male pairs competitors. I think the dynamic between Alexa & Chris and Jenni & Todd is working very well. They seem to have bonded over similar values and similar experiences in the skating world. Chris and Alexa couldn't have landed into any better training environment for the latter years of their career in skating. I was struck by Alexa's revealing comment during the fp press conference that Jenni & Todd care about them not just as students, but as people first and foremost.

I've spent some time with them, and don't see this at all, but everyone interprets things differently. He's not particularly quiet, either.

Quite right. Thanks for sharing your first-hand knowledge.

This cake has been sliced so many times I feel like its pointless.

Knierms have lots of things going for them. Plus they are the only US team to get their booties to a GP Final since Lincoln was President.

Right-on, ANL! You do have a way with words and analogies. Tee hee

My slight modification: "The snarky naysayer cake has been sliced so many times, it's not worth consuming nor inhaling." Especially not on an empty stomach!