Royalty Thread #11: Putting the "Fun" in Dysfunctional

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mag

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Middle-age is usually considered to be 45+. (Look it up. That seems to be the consensus.) Calling Meghan and Harry -- who are in their 30s -- middle-aged is just a way to drag them IMO.

I was not dragging them. There are two subtexts I find annoying: one, that Meghan is somehow controlling a poor innocent Harry, and two, that it is terrible to expect, if they are not in Canada in an official capacity, that they pay their own way. Both, at least to me, are prefaced on the ongoing narrative that Meghan is manipulative and that they are this young married coupled just starting out. Neither is true.

As for what is middle aged, I guess it depends on your sources:


As I said previously, I have made my point and I won’t use the term again. I wouldn’t have even responded except I am bored out of my mind and I find the Queen’s statement to be wholly unsatisfying. But given that most of it isn’t really any of our business I guess the Queen can issue her statement any way she wants. :D
 

MacMadame

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Both, at least to me, are prefaced on the ongoing narrative that Meghan is manipulative and that they are this young married coupled just starting out. Neither is true.
I would say that while they are grown-ass adults, they are in many ways also a married couple just starting out. It's Harry's first marriage for one thing. While it's not her's, this is her first child. And his first child too. So they aren't like a couple in their 50s on their second marriage with grown kids in the picture either.

Like a lot of things in life, it is not always that straightforward. If you chose to wait until you are older to marry and have kids, in some ways you are more mature but in other ways, your experience is still a lot like when someone does these things in their 20s.

That first child can really knock a couple for a loop IME, no matter what your age is.
 

overedge

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I think security is going to a real issue. Private security cannot carry firearms. I get that they are unhappy where they are, but this isn’t about them. It is about every other person who decides they are special and should be able to private security with guns. That makes us all a lot less safe. Canada, and especially the west coast is a very welcoming place. They will be left alone and allowed to live their lives.

Until the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun, etc. find out where they are and send reporters over, or hire local writers and paparazzi to follow them around. It will be very easy for them to reach Saanich since the Victoria airport is right next door.

If H&M want to be in the Commonwealth and avoid reporters/photogs as much as possible, they should go to New Zealand IMO. Lots of remote areas and it's a looooong and expensive plane trip from Europe and North America :)
 

mag

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If H&M want to be in the Commonwealth and avoid reporters/photogs as much as possible, they should go to New Zealand IMO. Lots of remote areas and it's a looooong and expensive plane trip from Europe and North America :)

Yep, but I think there is an element of homesickness for Meghan. Canada is familiar. She would feel comfortable driving here, so even with security I think she would feel less cooped up.

If they decide to stay in the Victoria area it will be interesting to see how the locals react. H&M have a golden opportunity to really win them over and I don’t think it would take much. There are also good schools when Archie needs them.
 

Judy

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Wasn't there a story I read about a former Canadian prime minister being assaulted when he was out one night -- and that this happened because former prime ministers aren't provided with security detail?

From memory, I think I read that the pension packets of Canadian prime ministers are quite modest in comparison to other nations.

I just thought this was an interesting comparison with the Canadian government potentially paying for royal security on a long term basis.

that was Joe Clark but he was only prime minister for a short while. Yes they have security but it is much reduced and at some point can decline it too. The pension is about $130K. They are all rich anyways. Most of them slide into obscurity.
 

clairecloutier

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Vagabond

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of the Netherlands.
Being a member of the Swedish royal family also works.
Thank you. There didn't appear to be anything particularly interesting after Zemgirl's post, so I skipped over it all. :giggle:
 

becca

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but the culture of England is so classist that how could she learn? She wasn’t born into any of the classes.

Here is the thing every culture has it’s good and bad aspects. Every single one of them. And it’s good when we all interact because we can learn from each other and see our own cultural blind spots.


When I talk about Meghan learning I am not Saying become what she is not but there are plenty of good things to learn like for example the Queen and her idea of duty. Her wedding dress Made from ration coupons. The fact that during World War II she and her family did not run for Canada for safety but stayed. I suspect it’s not the high profile stuff but the little stuff like the ribbon cuttings little stuff of being with the people.
Phillip giving up his naval career.

At 93 the Queen still works! And you can tell how well respected she is by everyone
I don’t want to be judgemental of Meghan but the whole manifesto and the public can pay for our security the Dutchy can pay our funds! There is an article with supposedly Charles saying he doesn’t have unlimited funds. That’s what rubbed me the wrong way. And I think what rubbed the people the wrong way.

Here is what I think is an American blindspot. Are need for everything to be new and shiny and maybe not as much of a respect for traditions and learning from the past. We have a constant need to reinvent the wheel and while innovation is great sometimes things are the way they are for a reason and going in with a wrecking ball (Iraq!) can do damage.

yes the Cambridge’s trademarked but it’s doesn’t sound like they are using those funds for profit there is a difference and the main thing is the royal family it’s not a business it’s a state institution and I am not so sure Meghan understands that.

I like the Queens statement and insisting that Meghan and Harry are still family. This must be hard on her.

I just hope all is okay in the end I can’t help wonder if Harry is going to really be happy with this.
 
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overedge

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When I talk about Meghan learning I am not Saying become what she is not but there are plenty of good things to learn like for example the Queen and her idea of duty. Her wedding dress Made from ration coupons. The fact that during World War II she and her family did not run for Canada for safety but stayed. I suspect it’s not the high profile stuff but the little stuff like the ribbon cuttings little stuff of being with the people.
Phillip giving up his naval career.

From most accounts, it seems that Meghan is very personable and likes interacting with people, and can speak well in front of crowds (all of which she would have had to do to have a career as an actress). She doesn't need to learn that from the Queen. What she seems to have a problem with, perhaps justifiably, is a very class-based family culture that seems to have a very outdated idea of what modern careers look like. Not to mention a culture in which it's implicitly OK to wear a blackamoor brooch to an event that a half-African American is going to attend.

I still don't see how Meghan is supposed to "fit" into a family and culture that discriminates against personal qualities she can't change. And I don't see what any of that has to do with the Queen making her wedding dress from fabric she got with ration coupons. The Queen also had her wedding dress designed and made by a high-class designer, which 99.999% of British women wouldn't have been able to afford at that time.
 

Oreo

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To @AxelAnnie and @Oreo , this is what I was getting at in post #242:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...x7xAuIKZlZePccrVUh0rZZ1FfdfX-Irst1qsLwFVQGoW8

Thanks @clairecloutier for linking that earlier.
Thanks for posting this. It’s all very true. Actually, Meghan is the best thing to happen to Kate because before she came along the tabloids were ripping Kate apart on a daily basis and her mother just as much, accusing her of being a trolley dolly social climber. But of all the royals no one has been persecuted by the tabloids more than Camilla.

FWIW, the boyfriend of mine who was a longtime Royal Protection Officer with the Met at Windsor and Buckingham Palace absolutely despised Andrew most of all (well obviously) and in second place was Princess Michael of Kent of the brooch fame. Said she was just an awful woman—mainly on how she treated other people.
 

MsZem

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Not to mention a culture in which it's implicitly OK to wear a blackamoor brooch to an event that a half-African American is going to attend.
Princess Michael doing something does not mean it's considered acceptable by others.

There's no doubt at all that some of the tabloid coverage of Meghan has been inappropriate, hypocritical and racist (implicitly or explicitly). It's also true that other royal women, in the UK and abroad, have also been treated badly, though not for the same reasons (think homewrecker Camilla, social climber Kate, trashy Sofia etc.). It's sad that this crap sells and affects people's perceptions.
 

becca

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From most accounts, it seems that Meghan is very personable and likes interacting with people, and can speak well in front of crowds (all of which she would have had to do to have a career as an actress). She doesn't need to learn that from the Queen. What she seems to have a problem with, perhaps justifiably, is a very class-based family culture that seems to have a very outdated idea of what modern careers look like. Not to mention a culture in which it's implicitly OK to wear a blackamoor brooch to an event that a half-African American is going to attend.

I still don't see how Meghan is supposed to "fit" into a family and culture that discriminates against personal qualities she can't change. And I don't see what any of that has to do with the Queen making her wedding dress from fabric she got with ration coupons. The Queen also had her wedding dress designed and made by a high-class designer, which 99.999% of British women wouldn't have been able to afford at that time.
Overedge there are many reports including one report from a poster here that Meghan is rude to staff. I mean a poster said it here no one in the security has a good thing to say. So there is actual merit here.

There are some reports that Rudeness to staff has caused the Queen and Kate to get upset. Since they are not rude to staff? So I wouldn’t assume just because the Queen that means she treats others poorly because they are of a different station.

And I am not so sure in the end being a great speaker is truly what makes someone a great leader.

Queen Elizabeth’s father was a horrific speaker there is a whole movie on it and he certainly wasn’t charming like his brother the heir.

But he tried and stuck around and did his duty to his people and that what the people loved about him. And that’s who the Queen has modeled her Reign after.

With our tv age we pay far more attention to charisma when it comes to picking out leaders rather than who is going to do their duty even when it’s hard. And that’s really what it takes.
 

starrynight

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Honestly sometimes staying and being the change you want to see is important too.

In my own life, my elder brother, has set the example of modernising the outlook of our family from the old boomers that are my father and uncles. And I am always so grateful for my brother’s contribution because it has made such a positive impact on everyone. I’m so pleased that he stuck around and did that.
 

overedge

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Overedge there are many reports including one report from a poster here that Meghan is rude to staff. I mean a poster said it here no one in the security has a good thing to say. So there is actual merit here.

There are some reports that Rudeness to staff has caused the Queen and Kate to get upset. Since they are not rude to staff? So I wouldn’t assume just because the Queen that means she treats others poorly because they are of a different station.

And I am not so sure in the end being a great speaker is truly what makes someone a great leader.

Queen Elizabeth’s father was a horrific speaker there is a whole movie on it and he certainly wasn’t charming like his brother the heir.

But he tried and stuck around and did his duty to his people and that what the people loved about him. And that’s who the Queen has modeled her Reign after.

With our tv age we pay far more attention to charisma when it comes to picking out leaders rather than who is going to do their duty even when it’s hard. And that’s really what it takes.

You were the one arguing that Meghan should follow the example the Queen sets in doing little things like ribbon cutting and interacting with people. So when I point out that Meghan seems to be good at that kind of work, you suddenly turn around and find a whole bunch of other things that Meghan is doing wrong.

And if Meghan didn't have some charisma and presence, she wouldn't have had any career as an actress.

Really, your desperation to prove that it's all Meghan's fault because she isn't doing everything the Queen has learned to do from 60+ years of experience is pathetic.
 
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overedge

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Princess Michael doing something does not mean it's considered acceptable by others.

No, but she didn't stop and realize that it was wrong, or she knew it was offensive and didn't care. Or no one in her household (like, say, her husband) let her know that she might be making a mistake. Or no one at the event took her aside and said, that's embarrassing to our guest and you should remove it. None of those possibilities speak too positively to the attitudes around diversity in the royal family.

There's no doubt at all that some of the tabloid coverage of Meghan has been inappropriate, hypocritical and racist (implicitly or explicitly). It's also true that other royal women, in the UK and abroad, have also been treated badly, though not for the same reasons (think homewrecker Camilla, social climber Kate, trashy Sofia etc.). It's sad that this crap sells and affects people's perceptions.

Yes, it brings out the worst. It's kind of like Trump saying racist and sexist things, and because he gets away with it and even gets celebrated by some for doing it, others who might have been quiet think it's okay for them to do it too.
 

becca

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You were the one arguing that Meghan should follow the example the Queen sets in doing little things like ribbon cutting and interacting with people. So when I point out that Meghan seems to be good at that kind of work, you suddenly turn around and find a whole bunch of other things that Meghan is doing wrong.

And if Meghan didn't have some charisma and presence, she wouldn't have had any career as an actress.

Really, your desperation to prove that it's all Meghan's fault because she isn't doing everything the Queen has done in 60+ years is pathetic.

I think Meghan can be good at that kind of work but I am not convinced she actually wants that kind of work.

And in fact I think the main issue is that she likely as an actress probably does like the spotlight. The position of future Queen is already taken. By Kate.

But I don’t think Elizabeth is loved because she is super charismatic. The point is that I suspect a part of getting loved is quietly doing your duty. And that begrudgingly earns respect.

And I am not convinced Meghan wanted the role of a Sofie. Which is the Role she was getting.

Do I think it’s all Meghans fault. No the press was cruel and racist. But I am sorry I didn’t like how they let this go and I have always been iffy on Meghan due to the reports on how she ended her marriage and the family issue. But no not all her fault. Someone who runs rather than works through problems.

But when I talk about learning it’s mainly About what makes someone Like the Queen loved and you can see it’s not charisma it’s not being woke. And that’s something to learn from.
 

Peaches LaTour

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Here is the thing every culture has it’s good and bad aspects. Every single one of them. And it’s good when we all interact because we can learn from each other and see our own cultural blind spots.


When I talk about Meghan learning I am not Saying become what she is not but there are plenty of good things to learn like for example the Queen and her idea of duty. Her wedding dress Made from ration coupons. The fact that during World War II she and her family did not run for Canada for safety but stayed. I suspect it’s not the high profile stuff but the little stuff like the ribbon cuttings little stuff of being with the people.
Phillip giving up his naval career.

At 93 the Queen still works! And you can tell how well respected she is by everyone
I don’t want to be judgemental of Meghan but the whole manifesto and the public can pay for our security the Dutchy can pay our funds! There is an article with supposedly Charles saying he doesn’t have unlimited funds. That’s what rubbed me the wrong way. And I think what rubbed the people the wrong way.

Here is what I think is an American blindspot. Are need for everything to be new and shiny and maybe not as much of a respect for traditions and learning from the past. We have a constant need to reinvent the wheel and while innovation is great sometimes things are the way they are for a reason and going in with a wrecking ball (Iraq!) can do damage.

yes the Cambridge’s trademarked but it’s doesn’t sound like they are using those funds for profit there is a difference and the main thing is the royal family it’s not a business it’s a state institution and I am not so sure Meghan understands that.

I like the Queens statement and insisting that Meghan and Harry are still family. This must be hard on her.

I just hope all is okay in the end I can’t help wonder if Harry is going to really be happy with this.

I wonder, too, if, in the end, Harry will be happy with all this-especially if this marriage doesn't last. IMO, it won't.
 

overedge

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But when I talk about learning it’s mainly About what makes someone Like the Queen loved and you can see it’s not charisma it’s not being woke. And that’s something to learn from.

And those are qualities that the Queen has developed through being born into a royal family, from being raised as a royal, from marrying a royal, from having children that participate as royals, and from 60+ years of experience on the job. Meghan has none of that context, and her unhappiness has nothing to do with whether she or the Queen are "woke". You're still making ridiculous comparisons.
 

becca

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And those are qualities that the Queen has developed through being born into a royal family, from being raised as a royal, from marrying a royal, from having children that participate as royals, and from 60+ years of experience on the job. Meghan has none of that context, and her unhappiness has nothing to do with whether she or the Queen are "woke". You're still making ridiculous comparisons.

I meant the people don’t care so much about Being woke.

And being raised royal doesn’t mean you will be dutiful. Her Uncle was not dutiful. Her Father was and they were raised in the same family. And I think the Queen has always been dutiful.

Dutiful comes in all sorts of ways and it doesn’t always get public attention. A dutiful person could be like my Aunt who quietly took care of her mom for years giving up her personal life. Because it was her Mom.

The point is you get huge priveliges as a royal but with it comes The Queen Mum responsibility.

I think what rubbed people the wrong way was not the not wanting to be working royals but rather we want to pick and chose our royal duties and part time but want all the priveleges and perks like keeping funding from his Dad. Keeping funding public security etc. And the public way it was done. With elderly grandparents.
Everyone has good and bad.
 

Japanfan

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Do I think it’s all Meghans fault. No the press was cruel and racist. But I am sorry I didn’t like how they let this go and I have always been iffy on Meghan due to the reports on how she ended her marriage and the family issue. But no not all her fault. Someone who runs rather than works through problems.

But when I talk about learning it’s mainly About what makes someone Like the Queen loved and you can see it’s not charisma it’s not being woke. And that’s something to learn from.

Sounds to me like you do think it's all Megan's fault.

And those are qualities that the Queen has developed through being born into a royal family, from being raised as a royal, from marrying a royal, from having children that participate as royals, and from 60+ years of experience on the job. Meghan has none of that context, and her unhappiness has nothing to do with whether she or the Queen are "woke". You're still making ridiculous comparisons.

ITA and was going to say much the same. You can't compare a much older woman who was groomed to be royal from childhood with 60 years of experience to a much younger woman who lacked that grooming. Not to mention, the very different times in which both women grew up and their expectations of life in future, particularly as women.
 

starrynight

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It’s true that all cultures have good sides and bad sides.

And also things that are good in some cultures are not viewed as good in others.

So many Russian skaters talk of how they have struggled in the USA due to cultural differences. I gather what is viewed as social niceties in the USA can be viewed as being ‘fake’ by people from other cultures.

What can make you a great person in one culture can make you a big idiot in others.

Just because countries are English speaking doesn’t make them the same. Once thing I’ve noticed on the internet is how some talk of USA cultural and historical experiences as if they are globally shared.
 
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Japanfan

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So many Russian skaters talk of how they have struggled in the USA due to cultural differences. I gather what is viewed as social niceties in the USA can be viewed as being ‘fake’ by people from other cultures.

I have issues with societal niceties as a Canadian-born Canadian of Russian heritage. I am very much a 'say what you mean and mean what you say' sort of person, which has on occasion meant I am tactless. I have a friend who is also Canadian born and of Russian heritage, and she is likewise forthcoming, blunt and seen as tactless. My brother has commentated that 'we are not known for tact in this family'. I wonder if our behaviours are seen as tactless in part because of our Russian heritage/influence?

I am married to a Brit and TBH, find the British emphasis on tact really tedious. IMO it creates unnecessary beating around the bush and posturing. But then the Brits do like to have a few 🥃 and let it all hang lose. As a Jew, I appreciate that about their culture - as one who likes to have a tipple herself.
 

Rainbow

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This Buzzfeed article does a side-by-side comparison of 20 headlines about Kate and Meghan.


It’s quite ... interesting.

If these are the best (out of context takten) examples Buzzfeed can find, then I am not convinced (there must be better ones out there though). Take the Christmas thing: The Cambridges have only missed Christmas Eve with the Queen twice since 2011. One of those times Kate was sick. Also, they joined the Queen on Boxing Day. The avocado thing: It is not about the Avocado, but about promoting one thing (awareness to climate change), and doing the opposite. Also, I do see differences concerning the guest editoring: Kate stuck to a topic consistent with their main charity. Charles stuck to the main cause he has been following with his Duchy for decades. So guest editing a magazine like Vogue was kind of a new approach. And she herself in her editorial made it sound like it was quite an impulsive, as in not cleared beforehand, decision to pitch it to the editor-in-chief. Which adds to the impression that she does not seek the advice of more experienced people who work for the Royals.
 

starrynight

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The whole power and intrigue of the monarchy comes from its sense of utter exclusiveness and mystique. It's the sort of status that no amount of money can buy.

That's why you had Jay Z and Beyonce who are billionaires and titans of the entertainment industry standing in a queue to shake hands with Meghan and Harry -- and looking thrilled about it. It's why you have billionaires rushing to give them mansions rent free.

In any other kind of world, very talented billionaires wouldn't give two stuffs about a supporting actress from Suits and an ex-serviceman.

For all the talk about royals wanting to be 'just like us' -- if they were, then their power would be gone. They'd just be random rich people.
 
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canbelto

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@becca you realize Meghan can't be loved as the Queen because she isn't the Queen right? She doesn't have the kind of history the Queen has with the British people.
 
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