The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

[clairecloutier]

Since Davis/White retired, I feel like there's been a strange thing going on in U.S. ice dance, wherein the current top team has seldom been the trendy/"cool" team favored by fans. First after D/W retired, Chock/Bates were on top, but many fans criticized them and preferred the Shibs. Then the Shibs were on top for a couple years, but many fans criticized them for being too conservative and started to prefer Hubbell/Donohue. (I even remember a tweet to the effect that all the "cool kids" liked Hubbell/Donohue and not the Shibs.) Then H/D took over as the top team--only to have fan sentiment/preference turn back to Chock/Bates. I find it to be a weird cycle. There have been certain reasons for all the turns in sentiment, but it's still rather odd--and must feel confusing to the teams involved.

 

[Gris]

Since Davis/White retired, I feel like there's been a strange thing going on in U.S. ice dance, wherein the current top team has seldom been the trendy/"cool" team favored by fans. First after D/W retired, Chock/Bates were on top, but many fans criticized them and preferred the Shibs. Then the Shibs were on top for a couple years, but many fans criticized them for being too conservative and started to prefer Hubbell/Donohue. (I even remember a tweet to the effect that all the "cool kids" liked Hubbell/Donohue and not the Shibs.) Then H/D took over as the top team--only to have fan sentiment/preference turn back to Chock/Bates. I find it to be a weird cycle. There have been certain reasons for all the turns in sentiment, but it's still rather odd--and must feel confusing to the teams involved.

This is absolutely true and can be pretty confusing but I'd argue that this shift of favour may be reasonable sometimes too. For example, for two years in a row H/D has been coming up with subpar material while C/B look like rejuvenated after moving to Montreal with interesting programs so I think it's normal for fans to be disappointed in H/D. C/B, however, are not as solid technically as the Shibs so this could be a reason for fans to prefer Shibs over them previously.

What is unreasonable is the amount of hatred displayed on social media right now. Like, it's perfectly fine to not like and criticize a program, but one can do it in a respectful way without mocking the skater.

 

[elisa_p]

The abuse scandal is definitely not why. It may have exacerbated things, but I remember settling in to watch junior dance last season and being shocked and genuinely appalled by the level of vitriol suddenly being flung at very young teams. I'm vaguely aware that that had been happening with ladies singles(which is also terrible, of course), but I definitely noticed a big change after Pyeongchang in general. What I found startling was not just the unkindness of what was being said about teams, but the, hmm, focus of it? Rather than one throwaway insult, various young and/or fairly low ranked teams get criticised with such intensity you would think they were competing for the OGM against fan favorites, instead of trying to make the world team/place 15th at worlds/etc. On twitter at least, the Uber Matrix appears to attack anyone but the three established Good Teams, which change wildly and without warning. I wouldn't take the criticism to heart.

I totally agree with this but to be honest it's not just social media but I find that's the case pretty much everywhere (including FSU). There has been a marked increase in posts that frequently cross the line between critiquing SS's and critiquing the skaters themselves and with the anonymity of the internet, it's very easy to do so without any real consequences. People have favourites and can't seem to understand that everyone has opinions and one isn't just less valid just because it's not theirs. Or they seem to think they truly know their skating favs when in reality, we know nothing about these skaters beyond the few interviews they do and what they put out there on the ice. Throw in a very subjective sport where even the judges don't understand their own system (especially Ice Dance), an abuse scandal in the middle of "woke" culture and it's a recipe for disaster. We might have more skating fans after PYC and I sadly don't think it's going to get any better. Use the blocking function and carry on would be my advice.

 

[Dobre]

With the exception of V&M and P&C, the first of whom already had a well-established fan base and the second of whom spent most of their second top season injured from a concussion, every dance team to finish on the podium in the past quadrennium has faced an immediate about face in "popularity" immediately after finishing on the podium at Worlds. It's not the real fan base, IMO. The real fan base is still building and still there.

I would never even attempt to analyze twitter, but when a team comes up the ranks, other people jump on the band wagon because 1. said team is competition for whoever is already threatening the top team and 2. said team probably has great material that year which is part of why they are climbing the ranks.

As far as Hubbell & Donohue's taste in programs is concerned, they've been getting flack since at least 2014-15. The Great Gatsby was questionable, and the six-piece hip hop/blues number was questionable. I remember hypothesizing, while watching their gala # from SC 2017-18 that it was a miracle we had gotten two high-quality competitive numbers from them that year. Probably you either love this about H&D or hate it.

It doesn't matter what team you are, detractors are going to dig around for an Achilles' Heel and hammer away at it. This happens to be one of H&D's. Nikita's track record is one of Sinitsina & Katsalapov's. There is always going to be something.

Note: As a Shib fan, I do think H&D made a tactical political error. They gave a number of interviews during the Olympic season, some of which undermined the top U.S. dance team. That was their own potential future fan base. It would have been very easy for the Shibs' fan base to transfer that loyalty over to H&D after the Olympics. I don't think this is a stretch because for the most part, the Shib fans I know were pretty positive toward Hubbell & Donohue prior to that season. (Generally speaking, Chock & Bates were major competition longer so not too likely to inherit those fans). But . . . Zach will open his mouth.

Anyway, the higher you climb, the more you get of both. More loyal fans that tune in just to watch you and more fans who want to see someone else on top. (It only ramps up, as most of us that have ever been a fan of a team favored for an Olympic medal are well aware).

 

[mollymgr]

This might be an unpopular opinion (as most ice dance opinions ). I think US ice dance is still waiting for a team to come and take charge of the top spot and own it like a boss nationally and internationally. Even with all the depth, the difference between the top teams isn't that much and the spots are fairly interchangeable (Shibs, H/D, C/B etc). When it is so close, there is bound to be intense rivalry between all the teams and their fans who want them to be at the top. But beating P/C seems out of reach for most of these teams at this point. Internationally, there is still a wide chasm between P/C and the rest of the world.

 

[SidelineSkater]

After watching SKAM live in person last week and then reading all the hand-wringing over how close S/B were to H/D, I realized how easy it is to second guess programs, styling, etc. I was hoping H/D would have had a more fun, audience accessible RD. The crowd ate up Smart/Diaz's Grease, despite the fact some might say they have weaker skating skills and technicality. I've noticed throughout the season, there are more obscure musicals used for the RD, and sort of surprised we haven't heard more popular ones - although that drifts into warhorse territory too.

Great point made by several of you earlier about shifting support for the underdogs and attacking who is on top, especially in US ice dance. After the Shibs left, my interest went to H/D. I'm in the minority, but I didn't hate their FD last year. I do understand the hope for something more edgy from them and less common both last year and this year.

It's the argument we make every year with music and program choices. Pap/Ciz only do one style (not true) and get criticized for it. Then when we have teams who stretch themselves or try something new, they get hammered and 'fans' think they should go back to the comfort zone.

H/D were only a few points ahead of S/B at last year's worlds, so the point gap hasn't closed - it has maintained. Granted you'd think they'd have a wider spread given the home court advantage. It will be interesting to see how the FD plays out in Canada and how close or not close they are to G/P.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I think it is impossible to predict in advance what is going to be crowd-pleasing and what won’t be. From interviews in the past, it sounds like h/d have been trying to come up with things that the crowd will like.

I also think it’s impossible to predict after one team retires who their fans will go for next. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of consistency as fans move from team-to-team.

Not specific to ice dance or any particular skater, I have noticed a tendency for a fairly big number of skating fans on Twitter/Tumblr who have set almost puritanical social justice standards that skaters must meet in order to not be “cancelled” for being “problematic.” There were quite a few cancellations in the early days of the abuse scandal right after Coughlin’s suicide at a point before a lot of information was known. Even the Shibs made a cancel list in all of that. I think it’s a lot of young people who fail to grasp that skaters are also largely young people still learning to navigate the world too.

 

[MarieM]

H&D have made terrible choices regarding FD last year and this year (we'll see how they fare in Canada). It's not them hence they can't shine in it. Their Oly FD was a killer because it's what they do best. They sold Madison's feminine appeal. In those two last FD, they try to become storytellers, but that's never been a force with them. Hence the terrible choices IMO of course.

As for RDs, so far, the only one I can enjoy are the upbeat one recent music ones and maybe S&Kats.

Edit.
IMO Paul&Piper won it fair and square. Madison gave away points, Paul too but Piper stood and did her job really fine. Little details here and there, I hate the costumes and the music, but if you mute the music, it's breathtaking.

 

[Viscaro]

Well I wanted to this the Skate Canada Free dance live on youtube and man what emotions ! I am always sad for the ones who do not make it to the podium or miss first place but congrats to the winners

 

[bcash]

Whoa some inflation there for G/P. Piper’s twizzles probably didn’t deserve L4 +GOE. This program as a whole does appear to have more lightness and flow here. They always have weird choices in choreo alongside smart ones. That straight line lift, with her not nearly enough back arch on top him and him burying his head underneath her legs —what’s the imagery, or meaning they are trying to get there? Costumes still not good.

Strong skate for Lilah and Lewis. She’s getting more comfortable with the program.

H/B strong RD. underscored in the technicals in the FD, esp compared to G/P. Performance-wise, H is dancing with quite a bit more panache than she used to.

H/D’s FD is very attractive and strongly skated. There’s more of a voice from them compared to G/P, who are skating to a superior song but sort of hiding behind it. Are they experiencing some after effect of last year’s muddled programs in the eyes of the judges? They certainly should get higher marks than G/P, home inflation included.

 

[bcash]

Edit.
IMO Paul&Piper won it fair and square. Madison gave away points, Paul too but Piper stood and did her job really fine. Little details here and there, I hate the costumes and the music, but if you mute the music, it's breathtaking.

Uh Piper had to check her balance pretty obviously (most noticeable out of everyone in the second group) in her 1st set of twizzles.

 

[morqet]

Uh Piper had to check her balance pretty obviously (most noticeable out of everyone in the second group) in her 1st set of twizzles.

Her twizzles were knocked down to level 3 on review because of that. Even if the judges had been harsher on GOE (although remember that its the average with Paul, and his were great), P2 still would have won by at least a point.

The thing that annoys me most about H/D is how little they are in hold, even in the step sequences. It feels like a gala program.

 

[Debbie S]

H/D spend most of the Shallow part of the program skating on 2 feet, kind of just stroking around between the elements. I also feel like the program is poorly constructed....all the choreo elements are done at the beginning and the lifts near the end. During the combo lift, Zach slows down as the music builds. After the curve lift, it feels like they are kind of just waiting for the music to end, with nothing to do.

 

[Bigbird]

H/D spend most of the Shallow part of the program skating on 2 feet, kind of just stroking around between the elements. I also feel like the program is poorly constructed....all the choreo elements are done at the beginning and the lifts near the end. During the combo lift, Zach slows down as the music builds. After the curve lift, it feels like they are kind of just waiting for the music to end, with nothing to do.

But you've just described S/K's programs except that they're using recycled lifts, almost void of any story or emotion but yet still they will score well over what G/P scored today. So meh.. they simply don't like this programme the judges that is. They have a formula that they want you to follow and that's pretty much it, unless you can completely wig them out by doing a P/C in which case they have no choice but to give them the highest scores for everything....

 

[Debbie S]

But you've just described S/K's programs except that they're using recycled lifts, almost void of any story or emotion but yet still they will score well over what G/P scored today. So meh.. they simply don't like this programme the judges that is. They have a formula that they want you to follow and that's pretty much it, unless you can completely wig them out by doing a P/C in which case they have no choice but to give them the highest scores for everything....

Well, I'm not a S/K fan, either. And I agree they are way overscored. Doesn't change my opinion that H/D's program is bad.

I need to correct my earlier post. I see that H/D have the choreo twizzles near the end, so not all at the beginning. But I still think the program is unbalanced and doesn't flow well.

Looking at the protocols from today, H/D scored higher in skating skills and G/P higher in other categories, which I think is correct. H/B scored higher than F/G in skating skills and transitions, which I also think is correct. With H/B, the problem was GOEs, they had a higher BV than F/G. F/G slightly higher PCS is probably due to F/G having about 3000x more excitement in their program. And I do think H/B suffered a bit skating right after G/P.

 

[firstflight]

NBC Universal

 

[I❤️Marina&Sergai]

Well I wanted to this the Skate Canada Free dance live on youtube and man what emotions ! I am always sad for the ones who do not make it to the podium or miss first place but congrats to the winners

I really enjoyed the competition,

Well I wanted to this the Skate Canada Free dance live on youtube and man what emotions ! I am always sad for the ones who do not make it to the podium or miss first place but congrats to the winners

I was really pleased for Lilah and Lewis, it was great to see them on the podium at a Grand Prix. I think it would be hard not be moved by Pipers reaction to the score.

 

[laviemn]

Not specific to ice dance or any particular skating, I have noticed a tendency for a fairly big number of skating fans on Twitter/Tumblr who have set almost puritanical social justice standards that skaters must meet in order to not be “cancelled” for being “problematic.” There were quite a few cancellations in the early days of the abuse scandal right after Coughlin’s suicide at a point before a lot of information was known. Even the Shibs made a cancel list in all of that. I think it’s a lot of young people who fail to grasp that skaters are also largely young people still learning to navigate the world too.

This is partly what I was thinking of when I mentioned inverting the fan-celebrity power dynamic. The younger people on social media, teens and 20-something, grew up with social media and learned how to use it to wield power. A positive example is the Parkland teens using Twitter to shame companies working with the NRA. A negative example is basically, well, all fan culture, from boy bands to skating. During the abuse scandal, there were fans who seemed proud of and invigorated by judging and policing and berating the skaters. It's like a way for a fan to feel powerful over strangers into whom they invested so much time and emotion and possibly money, strangers who don't know the fan is alive unless the fan imposes on them.

Back to actual skating, either Shallow or the hoedown section of H/D's free has got to go. Pick one, but they cannot work in the same program.

 

[starrynight]

I think the music is great for H/D's program. At least the song choices themselves. There's a lot they could do with those choices.

In ice dance, I don't even know what is good or not anymore. After all, H/D rose up in the rankings with that hip hop mash up SD that was a bit of an assault on the ears.

I just think that the judges just decide to move onto other things. I'm not sure how different this FD is to anything much else they've done before - aside from their 2018 FD.

 

[elisa_p]

One of Gadbois's talents is to really hone in a team's strengths and to play to that and even constructing programs that minimize any weakness a team might have. So that said, I do no understand the two programs they've constructed for H/D. At all. They have a lot of strengths and are a powerful team....but I just can't behind that FD and it doesn't look like the judges are loving it either. I do like the RD but the music just totally gives me the creeps. They're a good team and it's sad to see packaging do them in for 2 years in a row. I'm not sure where they go from here...do they try to rework that free like they did last year? As someone mentioned above may take out the shallow part?

 

[mjb52]

There's a lot of variety this year, it may be hard for even the judges to compare such disparate programs.

 

[Cachoo]

Love H/D in as Marilyn and Joe but they lose me in the free. I will admit that I am not a big fan of the music. If there is a couple that can set fire to the ice it is them. Best wishes going forward....

 

[barbarafan]

Uh Piper had to check her balance pretty obviously (most noticeable out of everyone in the second group) in her 1st set of twizzles.

I think she got a level 3 on twizzles...but GOE's were high....Goe's were weird.H/B...cdn judge gave total 29 and cdn international judges are usually good at this. polish judge gave them a total of 19 and GBR gave them 14. F/G got bronze over H/B by .58

 

[love_skate2011]

Hubbell/Donohue are getting dumped ?

 

[mollymgr]

I guess everyone should Fear and Gibson. Great job!!!

 

[allezfred]

Very gratifying to see teams getting marked the way they should have been marked 12 frigging months ago.

 

[semogal]

I love Hubbell and Donohue. Don't always understand their music choices but have learned that they come into a program with a vision and work until they realize it. I hated Tron and the angel wings costume and by the end of the season it was the one I most watched. I trust their vision. They did back to back events and Zach is trying to recover from a very nasty respiratory virus. I am not ready to write off their season.

What I have less patience with is some of the posters on so called fan sites. What was fun and snarky to me a few years ago now seems mean spirited. I enjoy FSU and figure skating less all the time. I truly believe that after some of my favorites retire after the Olympics I am going to retire as well.

 

[VarBar]

Gilles/Poirier are the only Canadian veteran ice dancers who didn,t hit the podium at Worlds. In fact, they are the only one North-American veteran couple without a Worlds medal. So the time has come for them to be rewarded too especially that Worlds will be held in Montreal. Simple as that. Then the judges will be dumping G/P as well when the time is right, to make room for the younger ones. And the viewers will blame it on G/Ps bad programs. Unless they retire before it happens.

 

[mollymgr]

But ice is always slippery. This is only the second senior GP so there is still a long way to go before one can say for certain if anyone is slipping in the rankings. H/D made the GPF. How can that be a bad thing? They have most of the GP season to change/refine.

 

[oleada]

Piper and Paul's reaction to their win is the best Kiss and Cry reaction this year, topping Liza Khuda and Filotov winning their first JGP. The dancers have the best K&C reactions this year so far!