The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[Peepsquick]

I have yet to see the FD. Super busy. But IMO S and B were way over scored and didn’t deserve to be ahead of any of W and P, C and B, G and F or G and P. In the RD.

I actually do concede that S and K deserved the silver position.

But I think you could argue for H and D too.

I did like P and C, but I don’t think they deserved to be six points ahead. I’d say 2 to 3 max. I found their twizzles a bit slow. And their mid line. Their curve lift was beautiful but I still don’t think they have the best lifts in the field.

They certainly deserve to win, just IMO not by that large a margin.

I beg to differ on that one ... speed in twizzles is not all that ... it is in fact rather messy for most teams.
Gabi and Gui stretch to the very end of each movement, nothing is hurried (which can give the impression of slowness) but what these twizzles bring is unique: going down on their knees and then up with a stretching-your-wings-like movement. With this upward swing, they seem to be on the verge of lifting and flying away. I am gushing a bit here but this is VERY special.

 

[sharsk8s]

I beg to differ on that one ... speed in twizzles is not all that ... it is in fact rather messy for most teams.
Gabi and Gui stretch to the very end of each movement, nothing is hurried (which can give the impression of slowness) but what these twizzles bring is unique: going down on their knees and then up with a stretching-your-wings-like movement. With this upward swing, they seem to be on the verge of lifting and flying away. I am gushing a bit here but this is VERY special.

I happen to agree. I would much prefer teams slow the rotation and do difficult positions (like they do in the RD) synchronized than do fast and sloppy twizzles which look out of control half the time. Also slowing the rotation is harder imo because it is more likely you will stall/start three turning and you must maintain a good center on your blade. For example, katsalapov's twizzles are very fast but they look very chaotic and I feel like he is about to fall half the time (like at euros).

 

[Dobre]

Ah, but fast, difficult, clean, creative, good ice coverage, and bam! Right on the music. Those are worth all the GOE in my book.

You do have to respect the physics of a set. Some positions (those tight to the body) are obviously going to rotate faster than positions that extend further from the body. But I like a lot of the latter positions because they add to the polish & style of the program. They also make the shift in balance from one position to the next very challenging. And you also have to recognize that some positions propel the body across the ice more than other positions. (We don't want everyone doing the same positions just to gain more ice coverage or just to gain more speed). Anyway there are lots of ways to skin a cat, so to speak, which is nice to see with the twizzles. We are getting more variety, and they are being interwoven within the programs much better now than they once were. I wish the panel, though, would be compelled to take the quality deductions when a set has execution flaws. You may have one of the best sets in the world 90% of the time, but when you don't do them right, you should take the hit.

 

[Peepsquick]

I wish the panel, though, would be compelled to take the quality deductions when a set has execution flaws. You may have one of the best sets in the world 90% of the time, but when you don't do them right, you should take the hit.

Do you think it was not the case this WC?

 

[Bigbird]

I happen to agree. I would much prefer teams slow the rotation and do difficult positions (like they do in the RD) synchronized than do fast and sloppy twizzles which look out of control half the time. Also slowing the rotation is harder imo because it is more likely you will stall/start three turning and you must maintain a good center on your blade. For example, katsalapov's twizzles are very fast but they look very chaotic and I feel like he is about to fall half the time (like at euros).

That's the only way he can reliably do them. But eh...no need to think too hard about this year's WC. The objectives were satisfied and the message was understood by all coaches worldwide. I am so looking forward to next season

 

[illyria]

I really do think that +5 GOE should be enough if the judges use some restraint with it. But I'm just sure that if they were given +7 then they would just max it all out at that anyway. The really high GOE will only serve to just give some teams really high scores. I don't think it will make the sport any more interesting to watch?

Actually the one thing I do think is a step in the right direction is making teams submit a name of a musical for the RD to ensure that there's no 'cheating' of the theme.

I think having themed RD's is great.

I think that might make it so we will see everyone interpreting a musical, which should be entertaining. And not get a repeat of years where there were short dances which weren't in any way in theme (but just made compliant with a tacked on drum beat etc).



Ah yes, I was listening to that wondering what it was referring to. Rule changes like that are usually there to *correct* something.

Yes I think a big problem is that the committee aren't addressing the biggest problem with ice dance this season imo. How the difference in base value for each level is only 0.5 and how the +/-5 GOE scale makes it so that low level elements can easily outscore high level elements. Instead they are suggesting changes that make things even worse. Decreasing the negative GOE scale by 2 and increasing the positive GOE scale by 2 is an awful suggestion.

For the sake of accuracy, H/D would have actually finished 2nd at 4CC even w/o losing levels on the lift, b/c they also lost levels on their spin which would have been enough to drop them below C/B overall.

Thanks for the clarification. You are right they lost 4.3 points from the lift and 2 points from the spin, which would have put them 2nd overall behind C/B.

I think this lift rule that reduces the level by 1 for deviation of the partner is another problem that doesn't punish mistakes and lets GOE/reputation make up for it. H/D's stationary lift was not stationary and traveled across the Four Continents logo, but still received +3 to +5 from every judge. Besides the lift problem, they had a very weak competition with the level 2 spin in the free, Madi pirouetting her twizzle in the free leading to level 3, Madi losing balance on her one foot steps in the free, level 2 stsq in the RD, and level 2 TR 1 in the RD. All these issue imo should have been already enough for H/D to be off the podium. However, it took the base level stationary lift for them to get off the podium and with the new lift rules they still would have came 2nd overall. Plus they still won the RD with all their issues in it...

I think it's a real shame that H/D for years were a team known for good skating skills and being able to get their levels, but that changed this season. Their skating skills declined and they received low levels in every competition except for Worlds where they received all level 4s, which imo were very questionable (especially the free where they were initially called lower and then brought up). I hope that next season they have better programs (R&J was a mess) and that they regain their previous skill level and precision and can consistently get their levels again.

 

[Dobre]

Do you think it was not the case this WC?

No. Over +2.00 GOE for twizzles in which Madison almost twizzles into Zach, Fournier-Beaudry loses her leg position, and for a choreographic sliding move in which Jean-Luc mucks up his exit.

I've seen some truly great elements this year by lesser-established teams get less than +2.00 for perfect execution.

 

[Orm Irian]

The rules already existed, there was no cobbling. They’re just making it more clear now (not buried away in the Q&A clarifications), and making it less punitive.

It's good to know there was something there - I couldn't find it for looking!

 

[illyria]

It's very interesting that prior to the 2014-2015 season, to get a level 4 lift both partners had to be in a difficult position. Starting that season, only one partner had to be in a difficult position and you could still get level 4 using entry/exit features. That led to a lot of teams, especially those from Gadbois using simpler lifts like for example man in spread eagle position while lady is on his lap with entry and exit features.

In the press conference, Patch was advocating for the exit and entry features. He said something like "it's not fair to the skaters that if something within the lift is invalid then the entry and exit features are invalid." I assume this references for example H/D's stationary lift base. Well lucky for him that they changed the rules so that instead of getting base level, the level is dropped by one.

 

[Colonel Green]

I mentioned this before after Junior Worlds, but Marie-France et al. coached both the senior and junior world champions this year — that probably has happened before, but not for a long time; not in the 21st century, definitely.

Actually, at the senior level three different Gadbois teams won all of the major ice dance titles this season — Hubbell/Donohue the Grand Prix Final, Chock/Bates took 4CC, Papadakis/Cizeron the rest. Only the Russian victory at the Junior Grand Prix Final prevented a Gadbois clean sweep of senior and junior titles.

 

[Ka3sha]

I was looking through the protocols and noticed that Sinitsina/Katsalapov and Hubbell/Donohue got the highest scores for their one foot step sequences, even above Papadakis/Cizeron

SinKats: 9,35
H/D: 9,25
P/C: 8,83
S/B: 8,33
WeaPo: 8,83

I remember that we discussed OFSt not so long ago. The scoring seems interesting and fair to me, since both these OFSt stand out among other teams: SinKats are the only team who does it in opposition and H/D have the longest one (and also they have one or two additional steps and turns, if i am not mistaken).

 

[VGThuy]

I was looking through the protocols and noticed that Sinitsina/Katsalapov and Hubbell/Donohue got the highest scores for their one foot step sequences, even above Papadakis/Cizeron

SinKats: 9,35
H/D: 9,25
P/C: 8,83
S/B: 8,33
WeaPo: 8,83

I remember that we discussed OFSt not so long ago. The scoring seems interesting and fair to me, since both these OFSt stand out among other teams: SinKats are the only team who does it in opposition and H/D have the longest one (and also they have one or two additional steps and turns, if i am not mistaken).

Great observation!

 

[Amantide]

Should this I/S pairing ever materialize (which I kinda want to see because LULZ but also because Soloviev is a truly excellent dancer) and they are any good: I expect the same thing will happen and the judges will go with them. I and K skating up to their potential are glorious ice dancers.

I've been hearing this thing. Is there smth serious or this is just wishful thinking from fans? I would love to see this couple happening actually.

And another thing because I've been living under a cave, apparently. C&B left Igor? What happened?

 

[sharsk8s]

I was looking through the protocols and noticed that Sinitsina/Katsalapov and Hubbell/Donohue got the highest scores for their one foot step sequences, even above Papadakis/Cizeron

SinKats: 9,35
H/D: 9,25
P/C: 8,83
S/B: 8,33
WeaPo: 8,83

I remember that we discussed OFSt not so long ago. The scoring seems interesting and fair to me, since both these OFSt stand out among other teams: SinKats are the only team who does it in opposition and H/D have the longest one (and also they have one or two additional steps and turns, if i am not mistaken).

I noticed they had a bobble (I think gabi right after the bracket before the twizzle) which might have lowered their GOE

 

[sharsk8s]

Surprisingly s/k also had the highest StaLi4 but p/c had the highest choreographic elements by a lot

 

[VGThuy]

Surprisingly s/k also had the highest StaLi4 but p/c had the highest choreographic elements by a lot

That probably seems fair from my memory. Those choreo elements SHOULD be about rewarding how those elements fit with the music and character and what are those elements expressing in furthering the storyline/mood/theme of the program.

 

[Dobre]

The complete we-don't-know-what-to-do-with-the-teams-from-second-to-sixth in the RD is what gives me the most about this Worlds dance event. I didn't know what the heck to do with those teams as far as predicting went so I enjoy the fact that the judges didn't either.

http://skatingscores.com/2019/wc/dance/short/

I mean you've got Sinitsina & Katsalapov with three 6ths and a 5th from different judges. You've got Stepanova & Bukin with two 5ths, a 6th, and a 7th. You've got Hubbell & Donohue with a 5th and three 6ths. You've got Weaver & Poje with five 3rds but it's not enough to finish top 4. You've got Chock & Bates with a 2, a 3, three 4s, a 5, a 6, an 8, and a 10. [ETA: Swap the 6 for a 7 and the 10 for a 9.] Next two teams--Guignard & Fabbri and Gilles & Poirier--were pretty clearly in a battle with each other; but second v. sixth . . . LOL, the judges didn't know what to do with these teams any more than I did.

My apologies for being repetitive as this is probably discussed here and/or in the play-by play-in the K&C, but I'm so behind in reading threads after Worlds that I've just leaped into the Dance Hall in the midst of the discussion.

 

[cocotaffy]

Watching the Brits commenting the FD, two major things caught my attention. One of them mentions how Fabbri uses constantly his undercuts toe pushing to generates speed which should be a big no no at this level. He was going on and on about how it was unbelievable the judges were not sanctioning it. Yet during the RD, he said his gliding technic was actually correct and so he didn't understand why he was not skating the same way in the FD.
S/B FD, they thought their program was much easier than the other top teams nearly juniorish.

If someone with good technical knowledge could comment, especially on Fabbri because I enjoy the Italians and have always thought they were very precise with a neat glide.

 

[Dobre]

C&B left Igor? What happened?

They just left. I don't think there was any drama on FSU or social media about it. They'd slipped in the international standings and had a couple rough years struggling with getting the elements done in competition. I think they wanted a fresh start and to see if they could push themselves in a new way or a new direction. It's a new quadrennium, and they want to go a full four more years so this was probably the best time to make the attempt.

"To be determined," I'd say as far as how it's gone. They won 4CCs. They slipped another spot at Worlds. They spent a huge chunk of the season healing & getting their programs into shape after her surgery. Next year will give us a better idea of how things stand with them as they will have a whole season.

 

[muffinplus]

Watching the Brits commenting the FD, two major things caught my attention. One of them mentions how Fabbri uses constantly his undercuts toe pushing to generates speed which should be a big no no at this level. He was going on and on about how it was unbelievable the judges were not sanctioning it. Yet during the RD, he said his gliding technic was actually correct and so he didn't understand why he was not skating the same way in the FD.
S/B FD, they thought their program was much easier than the other top teams nearly juniorish.

If someone with good technical knowledge could comment, especially on Fabbri because I enjoy the Italians and have always thought they were very precise with a neat glide.

That's very interesting... Never thought something like that would be said about Fabbri

By the way, I was shocked when I saw him off ice how tiny he is. I know he is short having seen him on ice, but never realized how short...

 

[Amantide]

They just left. I don't think there was any drama on FSU or social media about it. They'd slipped in the international standings and had a couple rough years struggling with getting the elements done in competition. I think they wanted a fresh start and to see if they could push themselves in a new way or a new direction. It's a new quadrennium, and they want to go a full four more years so this was probably the best time to make the attempt.

Ah, gotcha. Good thing there was no bad feeling. I remember them and Igor were very close, at least I think so. And they were very loyal to him too.

 

[Ka3sha]

Watching the Brits commenting the FD, two major things caught my attention.

Could you share the link, please, if it’s possible?
I usually love listening to them and also Tanith, but with current YouTube policy it’s almost impossible to find those videos.

I watched the entire event with TAT and while she is knowledgeable and sometimes notices really interesting details, she is too biased when it comes to the top teams and especially S/B.

S/B FD, they thought their program was much easier than the other top teams nearly juniorish.

That was an impression I got from them at the Russian test skates, Rostelecom and Euros. Without a doubt they are great performers, but there is a lot of “open” skating in their programs (like I/K used to have).

 

[VGThuy]

I liked S/B’s FD from a performance perspective, but I agree. Seeing it in the final group at Worlds and after seeing some other dances in the penultimate group, S/B’s program seemed out of its league compared to the top teams construction wise. WeaPo I felt had a stronger FD, and I didn’t like it for most of the season.

 

[cocotaffy]

Could you share the link, please, if it’s possible?
I usually love listening to them and also Tanith, but with current YouTube policy it’s almost impossible to find those videos.

I watched the entire event with TAT and while she is knowledgeable and sometimes notices really interesting details, she is too biased when it comes to top teams and especially S/B.


That was an impression I got from them at the Russian test skates, Rostelecom and Euros. Without a doubt they are great performers, but there is a lot of “open” skating in their programs (like I/K used to have).

This account has lots of videos especially commented by the Brits. Here are P/Cs FD and RD , G/F RD and FD

 

[vireo]

http://skatingscores.com/2019/wc/dance/short/

You've got Chock & Bates with a 2, a 3, three 4s, a 5, a 6, an 8, and a 10.

Chock/Bates got three third place scores in the RD - China, France and Germany. There was only one 4.

 

[Dobre]

Chock/Bates got three third place scores in the RD - China, France and Germany. There was only one 4.

I went back to look, and I think we are both wrong. TSS is total score, correct?

They had a 2, a 3, three 4ths, a 5, a 7, an 8, and a 9. (The 3 thirds and the one 10th are from the TES tally rather than the total).

 

[illyria]

Watching the Brits commenting the FD, two major things caught my attention. One of them mentions how Fabbri uses constantly his undercuts toe pushing to generates speed which should be a big no no at this level. He was going on and on about how it was unbelievable the judges were not sanctioning it. Yet during the RD, he said his gliding technic was actually correct and so he didn't understand why he was not skating the same way in the FD.
S/B FD, they thought their program was much easier than the other top teams nearly juniorish.

If someone with good technical knowledge could comment, especially on Fabbri because I enjoy the Italians and have always thought they were very precise with a neat glide.

Fabbri has very good skating skills. Good knees, good flow, good edge quality, good steps/turns, good spread eagles. I don’t understand what they are talking about. Pushing from the toe technique is for example something Davis and White used to do along with widestepping and running on the ice.

Very interesting how British commentators changed their tune on S/B. Early in the season at Helsinki and Rostelecom they said S/B had really improved, showed versatility every year, and could be the couple that challenged P/C.

 

[Dobre]

Very interesting how British commentators changed their tune on S/B. Early in the season at Helsinki and Rostelecom they said S/B had really improved, showed versatility every year, and could be the couple that challenged P/C.

Yeah, they've done the same on Guignard & Fabbri, as they were raving about them and saying they should be higher as far back as 2016 and I believe as recently as last season. Fickle.

 

[VGThuy]

The Eurosport Brits really are fickle.

 

[IloveFS]

I was looking through the protocols and noticed that Sinitsina/Katsalapov and Hubbell/Donohue got the highest scores for their one foot step sequences, even above Papadakis/Cizeron

SinKats: 9,35
H/D: 9,25
P/C: 8,83
S/B: 8,33
WeaPo: 8,83

I remember that we discussed OFSt not so long ago. The scoring seems interesting and fair to me, since both these OFSt stand out among other teams: SinKats are the only team who does it in opposition and H/D have the longest one (and also they have one or two additional steps and turns, if i am not mistaken).

I think that Hubbell/Donohue skated the best free dance at Worlds!!!! They should have won the free dance.