Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[ice crystal]

Just wanted to express my appreciation that staff keeps this thread open and spends time to closely moderate it - corresponding ones in other places have been closed, unfortunately. It is important for people to still have a place to exchange and deal with the turmoil this is/has caused. So, shout out to the moderators!

 

[Frau Muller]

It appears that the TSL Facebook and Twitter pages have been taken down. I haven't checked Instagram.

This is a huge loss. I sincerely hope that TSL, Dave & Jonathan will be back strong after US Nationals. Their weekly recap shows are what I look forward to most of all on Monday mornings!

 

[cholla]

deleted

 

[GullyGirl84]

One does not need to attack a person directly in order to "smear". One can just simply mention a sensitive issue under pretense of "saving the world", an issue which is already handled and parties protected, but not made public.

Was not it David Lease who on his youtube channel also "informed" the crowd about:
- Gracie Gold's father's medical licence being suspended (and later reinstate)? Lease, IIRC, naturally hid his true intent behind "kind explanation of why Gracie maybe depressed" but he exposed a painful issue, the general skating community may not have learned of on their own.

- Anton Shibnev's alleged "legal problems" in NJ, suggesting "it was robbery". Which never proved to be true, yet threw a dark shade on this skater.

- Started the spread of rumors, with help of Doug H., that Tutberdize told Medvedeva "to go have babies", which Medvedeva herself denied in an interview, and yet David again even after Med's denial, insisted that "he heard it from a reliable source and that it is true".

Then he pretends to have "some damaging insider's info" but can't tell the whole story because he fears a law suite. When in fact "that damaging insider's info" is old news and been in the press for years (Buianova/Tutberdize issue with a man), which makes Dave Lease look like an intentional trouble maker, who wants attention, to feel important and to bring viewers to his monetized youtube channel..

When people try to object to his "lies and gossips", and state real facts, he blocks them or erases their comments from the site.

If he claims "freedom of speech", he should give others the same "freedom of speech".
He is trying to earn money off people's miseries, often invented miseries.

I feel for Gracie, but her father's situation had been written about in a national newspaper already by the time TSL mentioned it (and had been talked about on other skating boards because of the article for a while before they mentioned it).

I understand that the USFS is in a particular position, but would it kill them to make some blanket support statement of SafeSport (someone please correct me if they did already)? The PSA statement added flames to the fire. Skating is not important in light of safety issues and life and death, but I also do feel for the skaters at nationals this week, and hope that they are getting the support that they need.

 

[Rainbow]

These tweets are also completely lacking in regard to supporting possibly victimized people reaching out to SafeSport:
https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1087773951609262080
https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/1087773952418738176

 

[Scrufflet]

Just wanted to express my appreciation that staff keeps this thread open and spends time to closely moderate it - corresponding ones in other places have been closed, unfortunately. It is important for people to still have a place to exchange and deal with the turmoil this is/has caused. So, shout out to the moderators!

Absolutely right on! Huge thanks to Prancer for the work he/she is doing! Not an easy job for sure but I think you are helping a lot of people work through this!

 

[espinaca79]

This is a huge loss. I sincerely hope that TSL, Dave & Jonathan will be back strong after US Nationals. Their weekly recap shows are what I look forward to most of all on Monday mornings!

I have supported them since the Jenny Kirk era but not anymore. Despite knowing there is a public for everyone his approach towards reporting eventually lead him to be considered a persona non grata in many circles.
I like talking about difficult issues. However, his scandalous and obsesive nature eventually led him to this disaster to happen since he even dared to bully some of us while not listening to many suggestions regarding his manners and lack of responsability.
Had not David Lease had a history or gossiping, being catty and tried another way to speak about the report, nothing of this would had happened.

 

[BittyBug]

Had not David Lease had a history or gossiping, being catty and tried another way to speak about the report, nothing of this would had happened.

That is an enormous assumption, don't you think? The info was published by SafeSport. People in skating TALK - you don't think anyone else would have surfaced it?

And let's assume for the sake of your argument that no one else would have noted the information, when you say "nothing of this would have happened," how do you know that to be true?

 

[espinaca79]

I mean the backlash he got after and eventually the temporary closing of his social media, not talking about the tragedy.

Some of us warned him to take care of his tone and reflect on the way he was approaching people. He just did not listen, banned good people who supported him and now we see these results that went out of control.

That is an enormous assumption, don't you think? The info was published by SafeSport. People in skating TALK - you don't think anyone else would have surfaced it?

And let's assume for the sake of your argument that no one else would have noted the information, when you say "nothing of this would have happened," how do you know that to be true?

 

[Seerek]

While competing at Europeans, Alexia Paganini apologized for prior comments (dating back to the initial January 7th announcement).

 

[LarrySK8]

I paraphrase a parable from the Bible regarding forgiveness and gossip: A woman spreads gossip (which can contain truthful statements!) which destroys another person's reputation. Finding out the destructive nature of the gossip and feeling guilty over what was done, the gossip seeks religious forgiveness through confession. The cleric takes her apology and as penance, tells the gossip to place a feather on the doorstep of every person she told, and then return.

Thinking this an easy penance, the gossip completes the task and returns. The cleric then tells the gossip that to complete the penance, the gossip must now go and collect every feather placed on the doorsteps.

"But I can't!!! The wind has taken the feathers and spread them and I can't find them or collect them!"

"Exactly," says the cleric.

This has been an age-old issue for thousands of years.

 

[PRlady]

As this goes on, the larger context will devolve into some vicious arguments going on outside the skating world. In the twitter rant below, note how sexual harassment is now politicized.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxmHEf-WwAEYKEb?format=jpg&name=medium

 

[espinaca79]

I paraphrase a parable from the Bible regarding forgiveness and gossip: A woman spreads gossip (which can contain truthful statements!) which destroys another person's reputation. Finding out the destructive nature of the gossip and feeling guilty over what was done, the gossip seeks religious forgiveness through confession. The cleric takes her apology and as penance, tells the gossip to place a feather on the doorstep of every person she told, and then return.

Thinking this an easy penance, the gossip completes the task and returns. The cleric then tells the gossip that to complete the penance, the gossip must now go and collect every feather placed on the doorsteps.

"But I can't!!! The wind has taken the feathers and spread them and I can't find them or collect them!"

"Exactly," says the cleric.

This has been an age-old issue for thousands of years.

Exactly! and this is a lesson for everyone. The message is clear to me.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Deliberate misuse then.

Now that that is cleared up, we need not discuss the issue any more. If anyone else has any questions about due process, see the Courtney Milan tweet linked in the quoted post above.

Right.

Due Process is defined thusly: Due Process

The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution each contain a Due Process Clause. Due process deals with the administration of justice and thus the Due Process Clause acts as a safeguard from arbitrary denial of life, liberty, or property by the government outside the sanction of law.[17] The Supreme Court of the United States interprets the clauses as providing four protections: procedural due process (in civil and criminal proceedings), substantive due process, a prohibition against vague laws, and as the vehicle for the incorporation of the Bill of Rights.

I am referring, in answer to someone else's question, to Procedural Due Process.

I don't see anything in Ms. Milan's tweet that is substantive.

I was abused as a kid, and no one would believe my mother would do the horrid things she did. I have traveled that highway

It has been a while since I last posted, and I am sorry that this tragedy is what brought me back.

My deepest sympathies go out to John's family and friends.

I was sexually abused as a kid, and know how difficult it is to come forward and say something. I am concerned all this backlash is just going to make it harder for victims to report, when it is already incredibly difficult. I think it's natural emotions are running really high right now, but I am for full disclosure when accusations are made and an investigation is going on. This cannot be kept secret. We've seen in other cases the damage that is done when there is silence and accusations are not taken seriously.

What do you mean by full disclosure? It appears that only the guy gets disclosed.

Milan says there were three accusations. Brennan says two. Where are people getting this information?

I have not been able to find any information on SafeSports process.

From the SafeSport site:

Response & Resolution

The U.S. Olympic Committee entrusted the Center with the authority to respond to reports of sexual misconduct with the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Movements involving sexual misconduct. Our team carries out this important work professionally, emphasizing responsiveness, fairness and confidentiality. The Center’s confidential online system is the preferred method for making a report, though individuals can also contact our staff—we are here for you.

Epic fail here.

I would think that in a responsible world there were other actions available to the skating community to investigate before banning John. He could have been monitored while under investigation.

I contacted SafeSport yesterday, and asked for a booklet or pdf of rules and procedures. Strangely, they don't have anything like that. At least that is what they said.

 

[overedge]

The skating community did not "ban" him. SafeSport *suspended* him. Get your facts right.

ETA: and Christine Brennan (in USA Today) said there were *three* complaints, two of which were from minors. Again, get your facts right.

 

[VGThuy]

If John Couglin being named on the SafeSport website pending an investigation for misconduct violates his due process, then does every criminal defendant who is publicly named (court proceedings are public) before their trial also face a violation of due process? What about anybody in any workplace who is put on a temporary suspension pending an investigation?

 

[Deleted member 19433]

While competing at Europeans, Alexia Paganini apologized for prior comments (dating back to the initial January 7th announcement).

What did she say?

 

[vesperholly]

If John Couglin being named on the SafeSport website pending an investigation for misconduct violates his due process, then does every criminal defendant who is publicly named (court proceedings are public) before their trial also face a violation of due process? What about anybody in any workplace who is put on a temporary suspension pending an investigation?

Defendants who are on trial have gone through an indictment process, prior to which they were investigated privately.

John's situation is akin to the police publicly announcing they are investigating someone. He was not arrested, he was not charged with a crime. I am not a police officer, but I believe typically investigations are not public knowledge. The first time the public is told is when a person gets arrested.

However, since this situation involves a regulatory body that does not need to meet a legal standard in order to enact punishment, the waters are muddier. People can be suspended and banned for violations but not prosecuted under the law. For example, a coach's consensual relationship with an adult student is not a crime but it is an ethical violation.

 

[Lanie]

Alexia shouldn't have to apologize for what she posted. It isn't like she was the one harassing people on social media. Goodness me do the pitchforks go down now? Or will it just get worse?

 

[mag]

Defendants who are on trial have gone through an indictment process, prior to which they were investigated privately.

John's situation is akin to the police publicly announcing they are investigating someone. He was not arrested, he was not charged with a crime. I am not a police officer, but I believe typically investigations are not public knowledge. The first time the public is told is when a person gets arrested.

However, since this situation involves a regulatory body that does not need to meet a legal standard in order to enact punishment, the waters are muddier. People can be suspended and banned for violations but not prosecuted under the law. For example, a coach's consensual relationship with an adult student is not a crime but it is an ethical violation.

I believe the first complaint was made early in the fall. There was an investigation and it was decided that the complaint merited further investigation. John was then listed on the website in December. Further investigation took place, two more complainants came forward who are minors. The status was updated in January to reflect the additional information now known to investigators.

I have a question. If this was a coach that always gave off a creepy vibe, that people didn’t like, and three people separately brought forward complaints, and there was a 2 month investigation prior to anything being mentioned or posted and then another month before the upgrade, would you all still be crying about due diligence?

 

[BittyBug]

@versperholly, people are suspended while allegations of misconduct are being investigated all the time in a wide variety of professions, including public service and health care, and the only reason I know about this is because I read about it in the paper. So to allege that SafeSport's process in somehow unusual is unfounded.

 

[caseyedwards]

If John Couglin being named on the SafeSport website pending an investigation for misconduct violates his due process, then does every criminal defendant who is publicly named (court proceedings are public) before their trial also face a violation of due process? What about anybody in any workplace who is put on a temporary suspension pending an investigation?

Like was said above police doing an official investigation is different as the accused can hire lawyers and everything is public! All charges are public! Even if a minor is involved the charges are public even if the name isn’t. You have to take into account now that everyone on SafeSport list is considered an evil rapist monster! There is no assumption of innocence. Coughlin lost all his jobs. Lost his career. Lost his Life because of the SafeSport Nassar rapist list.

 

[caseyedwards]

@versperholly, people are suspended while allegations of misconduct are being investigated all the time in a wide variety of professions, including public service and health care, and the only reason I know about this is because I read about it in the paper. So to allege that SafeSport's process in somehow unusual is unfounded.

But is everyone put on a public list where the assumption is that anyone on the list is an evil rapist monster.

 

[RoseRed]

I mean the backlash he got after and eventually the temporary closing of his social media, not talking about the tragedy.

Some of us warned him to take care of his tone and reflect on the way he was approaching people. He just did not listen, banned good people who supported him and now we see these results that went out of control.

It's my understanding that both Safesport and Christine Brennan have received threats and people blaming them for what happened, so no I don't agree that the backlash was due to that.

 

[CaliSteve]

Had not David Lease had a history or gossiping, being catty and tried another way to speak about the report, nothing of this would had happened.

This goes beyond speculation, its deflecting blame on some you happen not to like.

But if we are going to speculate, I think if Dave was beloved and respected by 100% of the community, that tweet would have had far more impact then it did.

 

[yunasashafan]

You have to take into account now that everyone on SafeSport list is considered an evil rapist monster! There is no assumption of innocence.

People reacting in a manner that defies logic (unspecified accusation = conviction as an evil rapist monster, really?!!) does not mean that there is something wrong with the process!

Coughlin lost all his jobs. Lost his career. Lost his Life because of the SafeSport Nassar rapist list.

"suspension pending investigation" is a standard practice, is temporary and does not equal the above!!

 

[espinaca79]

It's my understanding that both Safesport and Christine Brennan have received threats and people blaming them for what happened, so no I don't agree that the backlash was due to that.

Ok. Well, I did not want to be mean and it was just my opinion and I can be wrong.

I don't want to lose focus of the main thing which is: 1. There are alleged victims and we will never know whether or not were harmed and we are asked to believe them. 2. John unfortunately died. 3. A reporting man is receiving death threats. 4. The upcoming National championships and that we all should be able to enjoy them.

 

[once_upon]

John did not lose his life, he - he alone - committed suicide. He took his life.

 

[CaliSteve]

I have not been able to find any information on SafeSports process.

https://safesport.org/policies-procedures

 

[gkelly]

Coughlin lost all his jobs. Lost his career.

You do understand that an "interim suspension" is temporary, pending the completion of the investigation?