Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[Tinami Amori]

How was John smeared? I have never seen any posts that attacked John, in fact I hardly seen any posts on SM until his passing. What do you mean by not having "due process"?

One does not need to attack a person directly in order to "smear". One can just simply mention a sensitive issue under pretense of "saving the world", an issue which is already handled and parties protected, but not made public.

Was not it David Lease who on his youtube channel also "informed" the crowd about:
- Gracie Gold's father's medical licence being suspended (and later reinstate)? Lease, IIRC, naturally hid his true intent behind "kind explanation of why Gracie maybe depressed" but he exposed a painful issue, the general skating community may not have learned of on their own.

- Anton Shibnev's alleged "legal problems" in NJ, suggesting "it was robbery". Which never proved to be true, yet threw a dark shade on this skater.

- Started the spread of rumors, with help of Doug H., that Tutberdize told Medvedeva "to go have babies", which Medvedeva herself denied in an interview, and yet David again even after Med's denial, insisted that "he heard it from a reliable source and that it is true".

Then he pretends to have "some damaging insider's info" but can't tell the whole story because he fears a law suite. When in fact "that damaging insider's info" is old news and been in the press for years (Buianova/Tutberdize issue with a man), which makes Dave Lease look like an intentional trouble maker, who wants attention, to feel important and to bring viewers to his monetized youtube channel..

When people try to object to his "lies and gossips", and state real facts, he blocks them or erases their comments from the site.

If he claims "freedom of speech", he should give others the same "freedom of speech".
He is trying to earn money off people's miseries, often invented miseries.

 

[CaliSteve]

One does not need to attack a person directly in order to "smear". Was not it David Lease who on his youtube channel also "informed" the crowd about:
- Gracie Gold's father's medical licence being suspended (and later reinstate)? Lease, IIRC, naturally hid his true intent behind "kind explanation of why Gracie maybe depressed" but he exposed a painful issue, the general skating community may not have learned of on their own.

- Anton Shibnev's alleged "legal problems" in NJ, suggesting "it was robbery". Which never proved to be true, yet threw a dark shade on this skater.

- Started the spread of rumors, with help of Doug H., that Tutberdize told Medvedeva "to go have babies", which Medvedeva herself denied in an interview, and yet David again even after Med's denial, insisted that "he heard it from a reliable source and that it is true".

Then he pretends to have "some damaging insider's info" but can't tell the whole story because he fears a law suite. When in fact "that damaging insider's info" is old news and been in the press for years (Buianova/Tutberdize issue with a man), which makes Dave Lease look like an intentional trouble maker, who wants attention, to feel important and to bring viewers to his monetized youtube channel..

When people try to object to his "lies and gossips", and state real facts, he blocks them or erases their comments from the site.

If he claims "freedom of speech", he should give others the same "freedom of speech".
He is trying to earn money off people's miseries, often invented miseries.

Im asking about John specifically.

What do you mean by "Freedom of Speech"?

 

[Tinami Amori]

What do you mean by "Freedom of Speech"?

If Dave Lease is making innuendos about people, or outing their troubles, on basis of "freedom of speech" i presume, he should not erase comments and ban people from his site who are disputing or objecting to his words.

About John. There are SafeSport and USFSA that handle these issues. They took action, John was suspended, thus prevented from further potential malice, until the process is over. SafeSport acted on complaints, before investigating true or not, they did their duty, suspended, without even knowing if John is guilty or not. The process was not over.

But Dave Lease chose to be the usual ass-ole, the eager beaver, who had to announce to the world yet another grand sensation, to be the first, with oh so veryyyy important news... in order to protect? There was no need to "further protect"... John was already prevented from any possible encounters with skaters.

 

[CaliSteve]

If Dave Lease is making innuendos about people, or outing their troubles, on basis of "freedom of speech" i presume, he should not erase comments and ban people from his site who are disputing or objecting to his words.

I agree, Freedom of Speech works both ways.

It would be interesting to find out the reason he banned some people. If it was simply the fact they wrote something he didnt like or if the person made some sort of threat or was trolling/harassing other commentators. There is a big difference between the two.

 

[caitie]

^ I’ve posted plenty of comments on TSL videos over the past five years, mostly commenting when I disagreed. Sometimes my comments were just mildly critical and sometimes they were completely irate because Dave really pisses me off sometimes. None of my comments were ever deleted, probably because they didn’t verge into personal attacks and abuse.

 

[AxelAnnie]

In the past three months, two teachers in my area were suspended for inappropriate behavior with underage students. There names and pictures were in the newspaper. No one is complaining they are being flogged or denied their due process.

I would have!

 

[AxelAnnie]

[

Please don't rehash the due process thing again. AxelAnnie either has no idea what it actually means or intentionally misuses the term and either way this has been discussed at least three times already.

AxelAnnie knows exactly what it means.

 

[MsZem]

That judge should perhaps read this Twitter thread on the issue of due process in this case: https://twitter.com/courtneymilan/status/1087856636239073281

Courtney Milan is a former Supreme Court clerk who became a successful author. She's also one of the women who came forward about former federal judge Alex Kozinski's sexual harassment. She's smart, knows her stuff, writes well, and has first-hand experience with the relevant issues. Definitely someone whose take is worth reading.

 

[Prancer]

AxelAnnie knows exactly what it means.

Deliberate misuse then.

Now that that is cleared up, we need not discuss the issue any more. If anyone else has any questions about due process, see the Courtney Milan tweet linked in the quoted post above.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I agree, Freedom of Speech works both ways.

It would be interesting to find out the reason he banned some people. If it was simply the fact they wrote something he didnt like or if the person made some sort of threat or was trolling/harassing other commentators. There is a big difference between the two.

He erased comments he did not like and blocked posters long before this situation, and they were not death threats..

Death threats are tactically stupid, and serve opposite effect, such as create sympathy for the recipient, no matter how wrong he is.

 

[overedge]

AxelAnnie knows exactly what it means.

From the way you use the term, no, you don't.

 

[Tinami Amori]

AxelAnnie knows exactly what it means.

No you don't.. sorry.. there are two legal terms/concepts for "due process", procedural and substantive, and then there is a "casual" use which people sometimes use to mean "fair handling".... and from your use of the term, i can't figure out which one of the 3 you mean..

 

[caitie]

But Dave Lease chose to be the usual ass-ole, the eager beaver, who had to announce to the world yet another grand sensation, to be the first, with oh so veryyyy important news... in order to protect? There was no need to "further protect"... John was already prevented from any possible encounters with skaters.

SafeSport didn’t suspend him until after the TSL/Brennan publicization of the investigation. They were investigating since at least October, according to Dave’s source, meanwhile he was still doing skating clinics with Gracie. So what you’re saying is inaccurate.

 

[dots]

I think we have to finally accept that skating culture is ugly. It's Awful. It's not only what is happening to TSL, but the obvious pushback masquerading as "concern."

If I were the accuser's family, I would ask them why go to nationals? Why put yourself through that?

It's so obvious people are going to make an example out of this person.

 

[Tinami Amori]

SafeSport didn’t suspend him until after the TSL/Brennan publicization of the investigation. They were investigating since at least October, according to Dave’s source, meanwhile he was still doing skating clinics with Gracie. So what you’re saying is inaccurate.

If any of the accusations against John had to do with violence, physical/any serious abuse, criminal issues, then SafeSport would have an obligation to report it to police, so it would seem so by logic.

At that stage of events, given the level of accusations, John was allowed to do skating clinics with Gracie. He was not breaking any laws, and not a danger to people. The complaints were being handled... not hidden or rejected.

 

[CaliSteve]

About John. There are SafeSport and USFSA that handle these issues. They took action, John was suspended, thus prevented from further potential malice, until the process is over. SafeSport acted on complaints, before investigating true or not, they did their duty, suspended, without even knowing if John is guilty or not. The process was not over.

But Dave Lease chose to be the usual ass-ole, the eager beaver, who had to announce to the world yet another grand sensation, to be the first, with oh so veryyyy important news... in order to protect? There was no need to "further protect"... John was already prevented from any possible encounters with skaters.

I have my theory on why he posted the suspension, but regardless its irrelevant what his intentions were. He did nothing wrong and certainly doesn't deserve death threats or any blame for John suicide. Its pure deflection and finger pointing.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I have my theory on why he posted the suspension, but regardless its irrelevant what his intentions were. He did nothing wrong and certainly doesn't deserve death threats or any blame for John suicide. Its pure deflection and finger pointing.

He does not deserve death threats, but i hope people remember that this is wrong, when they cheer for the hollywood lefties who want to cut off politicians' heads, shoot them, or blow up government buildings and announce all this publicly to cheers and claps of the crowds..

It would be illogical to directly blame Dave Lease for John's suicide, or to hold him accountable.
If this was a trial, i would vote on such accusation "not enough evidence to be found guilty".
To myself i will always think of Dave Lease's actions as "a potential contributing factor".

 

[skatfan]

If any of the accusations against John had to do with violence, physical/any serious abuse, criminal issues, then SafeSport would have an obligation to report it to police, so it would seem so by logic.

At that stage of events, given the level of accusations, John was allowed to do skating clinics with Gracie. He was not breaking any laws, and not a danger to people. The complaints were being handled... not hidden or rejected.

According to Christine Brennan, Safesport refers misconduct with minors to the police. Since two minors made allegations, these probably were referred to them. You and I have no data on whether investigations had been occurring with the police at the time of his suspension. We have no idea whether he broke any laws - we don’t know and won’t.

Given that he did get suspended on an interim basis, there was a concern about him being safe after they got to a point in the investigation. That is what we do know.

 

[dots]

If Dave Lease is making innuendos about people, or outing their troubles, on basis of "freedom of speech" i presume, he should not erase comments and ban people from his site who are disputing or objecting to his words.

About John. There are SafeSport and USFSA that handle these issues. They took action, John was suspended, thus prevented from further potential malice, until the process is over. SafeSport acted on complaints, before investigating true or not, they did their duty, suspended, without even knowing if John is guilty or not. The process was not over.

But Dave Lease chose to be the usual ass-ole, the eager beaver, who had to announce to the world yet another grand sensation, to be the first, with oh so veryyyy important news... in order to protect? There was no need to "further protect"... John was already prevented from any possible encounters with skaters.

Safesport made it public.

Tinami, you are going out of your way to blame Dave for a news that Safesport broke themselves by announcing the investigation to the public. As it should be. They were given a grant by congress which means we, the people, are forking money to them. Damn well, Safesport better make it public.

 

[tony]

It would be illogical to directly blame Dave Lease for John's suicide, or to hold him accountable.
If this was a trial, i would vote on such accusation "not enough evidence to be found guilty".
To myself i will always think of Dave Lease's actions as "a potential contributing factor".

The information was already there. He didn’t have to pry or pull an ‘I know something’ or ‘Look up his record, it’s there’ this time. It was going to be noticed at some point, maybe even by a poster here. Imagine if the initial mentioning of the listing happened on an FSU thread?

However, I’m still baffled how so many people, especially following on the TSL comments sections, equated this initial report to John being guilty with 100.0% certainty, and them being furious that ‘no one else’ was doing anything about it. Nothing against people that really love the work he was putting out, but any time I’ve ever read the comments on his stuff, many of them read like former skaters or rink moms just dying to gossip or share how the most awful of things seemed to happen to them.

We still don’t know what was happening behind the scenes. Did anyone think it might be even possible that USFS wanted to avoid a total circus at Nationals and got SafeSport to raise the level, giving a reason to keep him out? I’m sure someone else knows more than me if it’s possible. Even if it’s not, the point remains that we still basically don’t know ANYTHING and probably never will in this case.

 

[Japanfan]

Do you really believe that a straight male in his teens/20's/30's/etc., compartmentalizes instincts and physical reaction by "workplace" vs. "recreational place", when he sees this at the rink, practiced for hours and hours?

Yes. I think such an individual is quite capable of knowing that performance is not real life. A male dancer or pairs skater would be quite aware that boys and girls do not touch each other like pair/dance skaters do in public settings.

Even male and female skaters would generally not touch each other in the way that male/female dancers or pair teams do on the ice. Its inappropriate and outside of social norms.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Safesport made it public.

Tinami, you are going out of your way to blame Dave for a news that Safesport broke themselves by announcing the investigation to the public. As it should be. They were given a grant by congress which means we, the people, are forking money to them. Damn well, Safesport better make it public.

If Safesport made it public, then those parents who are diligent would check that website for a "name of the coach" who is handling their minor child. So far those were allegations, not proven offenses (also it was "misconduct" not a "crime").

There is also a list of sex convicted offenders in every country/town/city, and those who are concerned check the websites that carry this information. Nobody stands in front of a family house for sale and hands those lists to prospective buyers.

Given Dave Leases modus operandi with other sensitive issues (like Gracie's father's licence) and all the unproven dirt he digs up against certain skaters (like accusing Wagner of faking her injury, and using it as an excuse) and much more, makes me doubt this true reasons, such as "to protect".

Dave Lease has no morals, or selective morals. If he was "so moral" he would not have suggested certain immoral actions for skaters:

- suggesting that Kihira should mentaly spook out Zagitova during practice at GPF, by finding the right trajectory and do a 3A right in front of her, to psyche her out. Not only it is a dangerous suggestion, it is immoral.

- suggesting that he will send a message to Medvedeva and Orser how to cheat the Russian Figure Skating Federation, to avoid going to Russian Nationals by faking illness, to avoid a possible bad performance, so that they include her on the National Team based on previous status of 2x WGM.

Dave Lease might have deleted all videos with his "foul mouth stuff" for the last 10 months, but they have been copied and saved. More so, the two with scams against the Russian skaters have been sent to RFSF long time ago... and as you see, Medvedeva had to skate at nationals.

Dave Lease is a liability to US Figure Skating community.

 

[Japanfan]

There is enough of it out there to be a huge concern. And don't put words in my mouth. I was not referring only to children and did not say a thing about anyone being alone with adults. I would love to say that your experience is true but I have seen an ugly side of our culture based on 25 yrs. experience in social work and it seems to permeate everything. Don't criticize me for feeling some compassion for those who may be having a rough go.

Actually, there are probably some parents out there who are concerned about leaving their children alone with any adults. Parents who have been sexually abused/harassed themselves, or the parents of a child who has been sexually abused/harassed might be hyper-vigilante about allowing their children to be alone with and in the care of certain adults.

There is a reason why skaters have chaperones. Though I didn't know there way any requirement for this until reading this thread, and have no idea about the extent of that requirement across federations/countries. Many young skaters have parents who travel with them to competition, in which case the parent is the chaperone.

 

[dots]

The information was already there. He didn’t have to pry or pull an ‘I know something’ or ‘Look up his record, it’s there’ this time. It was going to be noticed at some point, maybe even by a poster here. Imagine if the initial mentioning of the listing happened on an FSU thread?
.

Reporting on what Safesport had made public is not prying or pulling one on John. It just isn't .

 

[dots]

If Safesport made it public, then those parents who are diligent would check that website for a "name of the coach" who is handling their minor child. So far those were allegations, not proven offenses (also it was "misconduct" not a "crime").

Dave Lease has no morals, or selective morals. If he was "so moral" he would not have suggested certain immoral actions for skaters:

"Then those parents" and anyone who wants to talk about it have the right to talk about an investigation that was made public so the public would know. Dave, and any person that forks taxes to the US government, can talk about a Safespot's investigation that was made public until they go blue in the face.

Your rant about Dave not having morals is childish.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Your rant about Dave not having morals is childish.

... and it is not my first nor last rant about his behavior in public..
https://img.memecdn.com/Evil-Baby_o_23383.jpg

 

[yunasashafan]

I have been mostly lurking on the forum and reading in this thread, but I just want to make a few observations. First, this is a tragedy all around, and my heart goes out to the family and friends grieving, and to the accusers who had the courage to file the complaints. Both will unfortunately not have the closure they deserve to move forward.

Here are the facts as I see them:

1) As a few mentioned before, there is no issue of “due process.” SafeSport has been investigating this case for a few months now and only escalated it when it received information that required this course of action, according to its own published guidelines. All signs suggest they were working with all parties involved.
2) Accusation does not mean conviction, and this should be obvious to all. The case escalation and subsequent suspension does not mean guilt. It simply means more investigation is necessary, and while this is ongoing, safety measures are put in place just in case, again as outlined in published procedures and motivated by history in other sports.
3) It is normal for ongoing investigations to request that parties do not disclose sensitive information about the case. John did state that he was innocent, and that is probably as much as he can say without disclosing sensitive details. What else did people want to hear? That the allegations were “only” about a bad joke so that they can try to diminish the scale of the complaints (not that they would have been able to)? All we need to know is that SafeSport, the body in charge, found these complaints worth investigating.
4) TSL and Brennan reported the facts, and any information they included is verified and probably a fraction of what is apparently well known in skating circles (not including the comments on said reports)
5) Grieving a friend is normal (regardless of whether said friend was guilty). Grieving on a public forum in a charged case like this one and without acknowledgment of its complexity opens you to the court of public opinion.

Now, some of the reactions to the above on social media:

1) and 2) OMG OMG suspension = guilty, bad person, ….. all the other unfortunate adjectives and comments
3) OMG OMG John did not get due process ..public support by key figures in skating… blame the potential victims …
4) OMG OMG death threats to TSL
5) OMG OMG the trash list

Do we see a trend? Reactions to 1) and 2) did nothing to help John’s mental state and may have been what pushed him to think that suicide is the only way out. If he had been cleared, I would think that he could have gotten his jobs back, but the problem would remain the court of public opinion, especially with the megaphone that is social media. I cannot begin to imagine the impact of Reactions to 3) on the three individuals who filed the complaints. Reactions to 4) lead to shutting down TSL, reactions to 5) are causing doxing and attacks on skaters who simply put a black box as a profile picture (for all we know that could have signified grief over any of the tragic aspects of this case)

I think that the problem is not in the facts, but in the un-reasoned reactions to them. Public opinion has always been volatile, but with social media the impact is immediate and wide-spread. It is hypocritical to participate in any of the reactions above while condemning one or many of the others…

And yes, whatever the reason and circumstances behind his suicide, John’s action unfortunately ensured that this cloud will forever linger over himself, his accusers and his family and friends.

sorry for the long post.. back to lurking

 

[skateboy]

It appears that the TSL Facebook and Twitter pages have been taken down. I haven't checked Instagram.

 

[sam-skwantch]

I think that the problem is not in the facts, but in the un-reasoned reactions to them. Public opinion has always been volatile, but with social media the impact is immediate and wide-spread. It is hypocritical to participate in any of the reactions above while condemning one or many of the others…

I really appreciate this post! The bolded part especially but I agree that the immediate and wide spread nature of social media conflates already volatile situations.

 

[FSfan107]

It has been a while since I last posted, and I am sorry that this tragedy is what brought me back.

My deepest sympathies go out to John's family and friends.

Regarding TSL and Christine Brennan, I saw their posts on John Coughlin being investigated by SafeSport. I know TSL has spread gossip and rumors in the past, but I didn't see any problem with their posts on this matter. This was information that needed to be known, especially since John was working with kids under 18. I was awaiting the investigation and hadn't jumped to any conclusion as to his innocence or guilt.

I was sexually abused as a kid, and know how difficult it is to come forward and say something. I am concerned all this backlash is just going to make it harder for victims to report, when it is already incredibly difficult. I think it's natural emotions are running really high right now, but I am for full disclosure when accusations are made and an investigation is going on. This cannot be kept secret. We've seen in other cases the damage that is done when there is silence and accusations are not taken seriously.