Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[DimaToe]

I'm just going to take a wild guess that I know more about these issues than you having sat through over 20 hours of training about understanding the signs of abuse, identifying grooming behavior and knowing when and who to report suspected abuse to. But whatever.

Honey... don’t brag about 20 hours of anything...it is way different to get “training” on something than being a part of it. I work for a university. I get all sorts of training, spent hours on end being informed on several issues. Yet I’m not taking a stance on knowing more than others. Your knowledge is unfounded until it is put to use.

 

[4rkidz]

Tragic for all concerned. No matter what your labels are people are not their behaviour they are all people first. My thoughts are with all those who are impacted by this and one can only hope some lessons learned to prevent future tragedies.

 

[rfisher]

I'm just going to take a wild guess that I know more about these issues than you having sat through over 20 hours of training about understanding the signs of abuse, identifying grooming behavior and knowing when and who to report suspected abuse to. But whatever.

And you know that charges weren't made to other authorities??? No, you don't.

 

[PDilemma]

And you know that charges weren't made to other authorities??? No, you don't.

This has been going on for a few weeks and no report of charges or an investigation by law enforcement has surfaced. I would assume that at least Brennan at USA Today would have asked those questions.

 

[rfisher]

This has been going on for a few weeks and no report of charges or an investigation by law enforcement has surfaced. I would assume that at least Brennan at USA Today would have asked those questions.

Coughlin, who is the only one who could comment, said no comment when asked by USA Today. Go to their web page and read the article. Since it was not public who made any accusations, what jurisdiction they would have been in, who they might have contacted, it would have been very difficult to find public information on any type of criminal charge. You know what they say when you assume

 

[caitie]

Safe Sport addresses the difference between them and the criminal justice system on their website: https://77media.blob.core.windows.net/uscss/1507074497591.safesport-and-criminal-justice-system.pdf

 

[Willin]

This is absolutely tragic. I'm heartbroken. I've heard he was so nice and caring for everyone.
I have no idea why he committed suicide, but I can understand how dire the situation seemed whether true or false: he was losing all his income, his coaching future was in serious jeopardy, he might be banned from rinks where he felt comfortable, he could've lost friends/supporters who would help him through this, people were going nuts on social media, etc.
I think that's what's hardest about this for me: I think accused should have rights, but in a situation like this we need to protect the victims and potential victims until the accused in case they are guilty. I've been sexually harassed, creeped on, and molested in public from accusers who were never punished - several of whom I had to see for years on end after due to the lack of punishment (despite extensive reporting and witnesses), so I understand why the accused needs to be removed from the situation completely. Which is why it's so hard for me to treat anyone accused of such a thing as innocent until proven guilty: I know why it's important to treat them as if they're guilty in such a case. It really does a number on you to see your harasser around every day with no justice.

If the allegations are true I'll be heartbroken for the victim(s) as well. I hope the investigations continue, if only to figure out what really happened and how it can be prevented in the future if something did happen.


As for TSL, TSL just reported the facts in this case, which is in no way wrong, and they can't stop their craziest fans from going on social media rampages. That's not their fault. But I do think they need to look at their tone (which in other situations has encouraged negative social media comments directed at skaters - I don't know in this case) and how they respond to their fans. Other places explicitly tell fans not to interact with the subjects of a video or story. While that doesn't stop all of them, it does seem to cut down on the number, especially for sources that block fans who harass people in the name of the source.

 

[ZilphaK]

This came up first in search. From USA Hockey https://www.usahockey.com/makingareport

Additionally, in all cases involving suspicions or allegations of child physical or sexual abuse, every employee or volunteer of USA Hockey Member Programs must also report to the appropriate law enforcement authorities.

eta Yup, same thing for USFSA
[PDF]U.S. FIGURE SKATING SAFESPORT PROGRAM - usfsa.…
https://usfsa.org/content/SafeSportGC2018.pdf

 

[gkelly]

From the SafeSport incident reporting form:

If you are a Covered Adult (an individual over the age of 18 who is subject to SafeSport policies), you are also required to report all instances of possible child abuse and/or neglect to appropriate law enforcement. If you are uncertain whether you are a Covered Adult, review the policies and procedures at www.safesport.org or check with your sport National Governing Body. Does this case involve possible child abuse and/or neglect?

If so, have you reported to appropriate law enforcement authorities?

 

[DimaToe]

This has been going on for a few weeks and no report of charges or an investigation by law enforcement has surfaced. I would assume that at least Brennan at USA Today would have asked those questions.

Look at how long it is taking in gymnastics. A sport currently filled with Olympic and world level greats. Even one of the currently most popular Olympic sports has not gotten its due with the U.S. law inforcement system. Even favorites of the gymternet (gymnastic) had a delightful interview with Nassar a couple years ago. I am not blaming John C. or anything for any sorts of abuse, but it is also not fair to blame the limited U.S. media outlets that skating has. They saw that there was reason for concern and quickly spread the word, wether or not it was in the taste of all people,at least it was done. It seems like most would rather take a side uninformed before feeling uncomfortable in an unknown situation. Which is unfortunate.

 

[Spun Silver]

Coughlin, who is the only one who could comment, said no comment when asked by USA Today. Go to their web page and read the article. Since it was not public who made any accusations, what jurisdiction they would have been in, who they might have contacted, it would have been very difficult to find public information on any type of criminal charge. You know what they say when you assume

He didn't say No comment like a guilty person hiding his face from TV cameras. He said SafeSport rules prohibited him from speaking.

 

[rfisher]

I never said he did. Nor, did I indicate he was "like a guilty person hiding his face from TV cameras." He didn't comment on the situation. He didn't imply there were criminal complaints as well as the ethical complaint (SafeSport) charged against him. Others may have accessed that information (his employers, sponsors). But the allegation that SafeSport acted outside their authority isn't born up by the facts. Why John Coughlin made the decision he made is not and will never be public knowledge. Nor, does it matter at this point.

 

[Spun Silver]

I never said he did. Nor, did I indicate he was "like a guilty person hiding his face from TV cameras." He didn't comment on the situation. He didn't imply there were criminal complaints as well as the ethical complaint (SafeSport) charged against him. Others may have accessed that information (his employers, sponsors). But the allegation that SafeSport acted outside their authority isn't born up by the facts. Why John Coughlin made the decision he made is not and will never be public knowledge. Nor, does it matter at this point.

It does matter. Truth matters. If he was guilty, his accusers should not have to feel the weight of his suicide on their shoulders for the rest of their lives. If he was innocent, his reputation should be cleared for his sake and his loved ones', and to inform the process from here on out (e.g., to take better account of the rights of the accused).

 

[rfisher]

It does matter. Truth matters. If he was guilty, his accusers should not have to feel the weight of his suicide on their shoulders for the rest of their lives. If he was innocent, his reputation should be cleared for his sake and his loved ones', and to inform the process from here on out (e.g., to take better account of the rights of the accused).

And, they may have that information. It doesn't mean the public will.

 

[peibeck]

This has been going on for a few weeks and no report of charges or an investigation by law enforcement has surfaced. I would assume that at least Brennan at USA Today would have asked those questions.

My brother is a police chief and here is what he said, "Ongoing police investigations are generally not public knowledge until an arrest is made."

I feel very badly for both those who were reporting they were victimized and for Coughlin's family. And indeed, for the skating community at large, who should be celebrating this week, both their new and established talent, at Nationals.

 

[skipaway]

Have just seen the tragic news and I hope John is now at peace and his family has my sympathy.

 

[Deleted member 221]

As someone who once was a stupid and precocious teenager with lots of inappropriate crushes on older guys, I never assume that every inappropriate relationship is coerced. That doesn’t mean the adult doesn’t have a responsibility to stay away from minors, of course s/he does. But there’s a spectrum of bad behavior and I don’t assume coerced or physical abuse is always the case.

Even if not coerced or physical abuse, it's still inappropriate and still subject to banning -- e.g., McKellen.

As a teacher who just had to listen to a student talking about her recent abuse by her uncle who was apparently "such a nice guy who always helped everyone around him" reading things like this make me sick.
If I had a child who was skating I would absolutely want to know about these allegations and I wouldn't let my child be coached or be close to someone who was accused of abuse in any way. And we shouldn't forget how low the numbers of false accusations are.
Reading some of these posts here makes me sick and it reminds me why the above mentioned student refuses to go to the police because no one will believe her over this "great man" anyway.

I'm not sure why my post made you sick. I agree with you. I've defended the Safe Sport process, the publication of the allegations by Safe Sport, and the articles by Brennan and TSL multiple times. I criticized the messages of "I've known him for 20 years and he could never have done anything like this."

That said, a man has died. Regardless of what he did or didn't do, he had a number of good qualities that his family deserves to celebrate at this time (while not demeaning the accusations against him - statements that shame the accusers should be called out). Even if he is guilty of these accusations, he would still have positive qualities, and he would not be beyond hope. With rehabilitation, he could have been a productive member of society.

While I am largely supportive of the #metoo movement, the answer is not to ostracize people for life and assume that one (or two or even a hundred) mistakes makes someone unit for society, ever. That kind of thinking leads people to.... I'm not going to finish the sentence, but you get the drift.

 

[ZilphaK]

As for TSL, TSL just reported the facts in this
case, which is in no way wrong, and they can't stop their craziest fans from going on social media rampages.

Mmmm...they could delete comments from their social media. That would go a long way toward setting tone and not allowing the crazies to drive the bus, you know?

People will cry "censorship," but no one is stopping those people from posting insanity on their own social media or starting their own blog. Let them scurry to the dark depths of 4chan or whatever.

I don't think you can have it both ways: be respected and engage with or allow craziness to be part of your "brand." In my opinion, you become the crazy behavior you allow in your own home.

 

[Jammers]

Social media believes in frontier justice simple as that. It's the mob rules and evidence be damned. Social media is a cancer. I really miss the old days in this country when evidence and a thing called due process mattered but the crazies on Social media who claim to be so progressive are the worst ones when it comes to being intolerant if someone doesn't go along with what they believe they go on the attack and try to destroy them.

 

[ZilphaK]

Social media believes in frontier justice simple as that. It's the mob rules and evidence be damned. Social media is a cancer. I really miss the old days in this country when evidence and a thing called due process mattered but the crazies on Social media who claim to be so progressive are the worst ones when it comes to being intolerant if someone doesn't go along with what they believe so they go on the attack and try to destroy them.

There's so much about social media that "sparks joy" for me (to reference a current social media meme), and I use social media to pressure institutions (I have a Hockey Concussions Twitter feed and Facebook, trying to budge USA Hockey toward safer on-ice play for youth hockey players). Does all that balance or outweigh the negatives of social media, like bullying, doxing and other vigilantism? I think so.

But I do think there needs to be more done, by both individuals and institutions to keep it in check and dampen the negatives. Maybe through PSA education, maybe via legal means, I don't know.

BTW, I think we do a very good job of keeping each other in check here. It's very much a smart crowd, passionate, but overwhelmingly respectful and ready to call out each other's BS.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Which is why we must have an inquiry in to how this case was handled and how it was reported on.

Are you calling for an “inquiry” into Twitter, Facebook, YouTube (Google), USAToday, and others for allowing the public to discuss and speculate as well?

 

[MAXSwagg]

Social media believes in frontier justice simple as that. It's the mob rules and evidence be damned. Social media is a cancer. I really miss the old days in this country when evidence and a thing called due process mattered but the crazies on Social media who claim to be so progressive are the worst ones when it comes to being intolerant if someone doesn't go along with what they believe so they go on the attack and try to destroy them.

Reading it from a piece of paper 30 years ago would not stop how the public feels about something...

 

[Mayra]

My heart goes out to all involved.

Regardless of where the truth lies, it can't have been easy for an accuser to have come forward against such a well liked personality in the sport. To now have this tragic outcome happen, will no doubt see them victimized a second time in such a tight knit sport/community where the burden of proof many times falls against victims.

For the accuser, John and the sport, I hope the investigation continues. Unfortunately for all involved, justice will not be served.

 

[kwanfan1818]

While I realize Daliliah is mourning and that this is an incredibly difficult situation for her- her FB post is alarming. She is a coach. You can stand for someone- I’m not saying she can’t- but based off of her post- I wouldn’t feel comfortable reporting to her- if it was someone she knows and likes. That shouldn’t be lost here. I’m not trying to be insensitive, I feel for her on a human level. The figure skating community is small and insular, everyone is connected one way or another. I think people should be cognizant of that.

I'm quoting this because it bears repeating. Who is/was going to report anything to Sappenfield about anyone in whom she has any kind of interest? Or any Sappenfields and not just in figure skating?

It took finding child pornography on hard drives in his garbage that nailed Nassar, not just his hundreds of (publicly identified) victims, and they were only found because the garbage collectors were late that morning, and law enforcement in this case was actually taking accusations seriously and were trying to make the case against him and were perceptive enough to look.

ETA: This doesn't mean I think Coughlin was Nassar's equivalent. I'm speaking to the difficulty of speaking up in the first place and getting traction from authorities.

That SafeSport is doing anything is rather remarkable.

Look at how long it is taking in gymnastics.

Michigan State is still resisting their culpability and the administrators and coaches who are his enablers and apologists. The Michigan legislature appointed Engler as interim president to replace Simon, and there was finally enough trustee support to force his resignation this past week. The list of his "missteps" in the linked article is too long to quote by board standards, and it's too hard to choose among them for the most egregious.

 

[MsZem]

Social media believes in frontier justice simple as that. It's the mob rules and evidence be damned. Social media is a cancer. I really miss the old days in this country when evidence and a thing called due process mattered but the crazies on Social media who claim to be so progressive are the worst ones when it comes to being intolerant if someone doesn't go along with what they believe so they go on the attack and try to destroy them.

Shaming existed before social media. Vigilantism existed before social media. Anyone familiar with US history has to be aware that not everyone enjoyed due process. What social media does is magnify things, both in terms of how fast things spread and how far things spread.

Social media isn't to blame for John Coughlin's death. His decision to take his own life is tragic for his family and friends. Given that we don't know what the allegations against him were or how strong the case was, I see no point in assuming anything about him or about the accuser(s).

 

[ZilphaK]

Reading it from a piece of paper 30 years ago would not stop how the public feels about something...

Have been around much longer than 30 years ago, I can testify that the way the public feels about something is one thing.

The ability of the general public to publish people's names and addresses, hound people at their homes and places of work, and incite each other to go after both the accused and accusers with both figurative and often literal pitchforks has increased exponentially.

"Mobs" are now worldwide forces, and I don't care how much someone claims to be a digital native, being hounded or even bullied nationally or internationally is not easy for anyone to withstand, no matter how routine it's become and no matter how much support that person has.

There are plenty of people who have taken their lives due to Internet bullying. (ETA: And not saying that's what happened here, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn it played some part. )

Vigilantism needs to be dealt with, at all levels, in every instance. It's the definition of humane and civilized to call it out and try to do something about it. And vigilantism and "frontier justice" are never just, not if we want to call ourselves civilized. That it's happened before does not excuse it now.

 

[Icetigger]

Are you calling for an “inquiry” into Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube (Google) for allowing the public to discuss and speculate as well?

I think that people now do that on those platforms should be discussed as part of an inquiry into the death of John Coughlin, but also in terms of how this matter was dealt with by Safesport and how it was reported on by Christine Brennan, and how it was reported on and commented on by Dave Lease and The Skating Lesson, which went far beyond just factual reporting, and also the kinds of discussions and comments that were hosted by The Skating Lesson. Any newspaper for example that reports on this sort of matter on its own website usually moderates its comments in terms of matters like this, or restricts comments on a matter like this. That wasn't done by the Dave Lease on Facebook. I would hope Facebook would provide a full digital record of all comments made on The Skating Lesson Facebook page, including those which have been edited and those which have been deleted. A full digital record would also show that the commenting and reporting on this case went far beyond what the statements by USFS and Safesport, neither of whose comments on or publication on this matter I have any issue with. However, at this point, when we see the digital reaction and what sort of commentary and reporting then surround this case, and what has happened, it has to at least be asked and investigated whether the public in general or an individual like Dave Lease can be trusted to deal appropriately with this information, and include consideration of how people act and behave on all those social media platforms. If the conclusion is that the public will engage in a witchhunt; or in a way that will create serious risk to any party involved, based on publication of investigations by Safesport without a conclusive outcome having been reached, then publication of those matters prior to those outcomes shouldn't take place. SafeSport is a relatively new thing. It was brought in because individual sporting bodies cannot be trusted to effectively investigate matters such as these, and it should be fully publicised and everyone in sport know that incidents can be reported to them, and that you can be subject to an investigation. I don't think we really know just how effective it could be; but most people are still functioning reactively to what happened is US Gymnastics; and that has very much contributed to a situation where everybody has to acknowledge that there is a strong possibility of the sort of things we have seen lately on various social media platforms contributed to a tragic outcome to this case. Just as much as the possibility of abuse in any form should be fully investigated; so should a matter like this. It is not a case of a choice between one or the other.

 

[Anita18]

There has been "frontier justice" way before the invention of social media. Salem witch trials, anyone?

Like many have said, this is a tragedy all around. SafeSport, TSL, and Christine Brennan are not at fault. In the light of the horror that Larry Nassar was able to inflict on countless girls under his care for years, the public should be made aware of any serious allegations so they don't put more children in harm's way. We have to set up the system to do that, because "innocent until proven guilty" in public discourse has put thousands of children in harm's way for decades, in sports, religion, schools, etc etc.

False accusations are rare. (They happen, but they are rare compared to the number of survivors who don't report or only report after years or decades.) Multiple false accusations that corroborate each other are even rarer. I don't believe SafeSport would escalate Coughlin's case after a month without due diligence.

But like @Louis I agree that this loss of life is still a waste and a tragedy. People can be rehabilitated, and can still give back to society. It's a tragedy that Coughlin couldn't see another way out.

 

[eurodance2001]

OMG.. can people just stop with the snarkiness and the ‘I know more than you’ BS? What we know is that one person is dead and that there were allegations against this person.. that’s it.. this is why I refrain from posting too much on this board.. way too many judgemental keyboard know it alls and judgemental people for my liking..

 

[ilovepaydays]

While I am largely supportive of the #metoo movement, the answer is not to ostracize people for life and assume that one (or two or even a hundred) mistakes makes someone unit for society, ever. That kind of thinking leads people to.... I'm not going to finish the sentence, but you get the drift.

Social media believes in frontier justice simple as that. It's the mob rules and evidence be damned. Social media is a cancer. I really miss the old days in this country when evidence and a thing called due process mattered but the crazies on Social media who claim to be so progressive are the worst ones when it comes to being intolerant if someone doesn't go along with what they believe so they go on the attack and try to destroy them.

Have been around much longer than 30 years ago, I can testify that the way the public feels about something is one thing.

The ability of the general public to publish people's names and addresses, hound people at their homes and places of work, and incite each other to go after both the accused and accusers with both figurative and often literal pitchforks has increased exponentially.

"Mobs" are now worldwide forces, and I don't care how much someone claims to be a digital native, being hounded or even bullied nationally or internationally is not easy for anyone to withstand, no matter how routine it's become and no matter how much support that have.

There are plenty of people who have taken their lives due to Internet bullying. It needs to be dealt with, at all levels, in every instance. It's the definition of humane and civilized to call it out and try to do something about it.

Interesting that these points are coming up - and I know this is off topic from this specific situation - but there is a viral social media outrage that started today over some (I’m guessing age) high school aged boys taunting/bullying Native Americans at a demonstration in DC. I don’t want to discuss that incident here - we can in PI if people want. You can search on Twitter to see what I’m taking about.

Here’s my point for this thread: As awful as these boys’ actions have been right now, I can’t imagine what’s going to happen if the social media mob ends up doxxing them. Which I guarantee someone will do by (probably) the end of today. And I think there’s a real possibly of these boys changing their ways from some truly awful views. But what’s the motivation to “redeem” yourself when society won’t ever give you the space to do it?