Manta & Johnson = Figure skating's First complete LGBT team?

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

She came out as bi last week. He has been out as gay.

I thiink is kinda cool, Adam Rippon called them his gay parents...lol

Kinda cool! Good interview with Johnson too.... cute photos.

Has there ever been a team in skating where both were out as LGBT?

https://www.outsports.com/2018/10/29/18019452/gay-figure-skating-joe-johnson-come-out

 

[Sylvia]

Also discussed previously here : https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/karina-manta-on-instagram.104486/

Re-posting Sarah Rasher's blog essay (Oct. 2): Karina Manta Keeps Ice Dance Queer
Excerpt:

Manta’s skating partner, Joseph Johnson, has been open about his sexuality on social media for a while now, which means that her revelation makes her part of another first. Manta and Johnson are now the first high-level partnership in a team discipline in which both members are out of the closet. I’m excited not only because I will now be waving a Team Rainbow banner for them in perpetuity, but because it blows a giant hole in the fallacy that ice dance has to be about straight romance in order to be artistically effective.

Direct link to Karina's video (posted Sept. 30th on YouTube): I'm With You

 

[Carolla5501]

I think it’s kind of sad we care. Your sexual orientation should really not be even worthy of discussion imho. I’m glad they feel comfortable making it public but I wish that wasn’t a “big deal”. Someday maybe it won’t be

 

[Sylvia]

I like Joe's answer in the posted article (especially his sentence bolded by me):

Outsports: Did you ever have a public “coming out” moment? Did you feel the need to?

Joe Johnson: Not formally, no. I just kinda started talking about it on social media one day because it stopped being convenient to skirt around. I certainly didn’t feel obligated. I do think that LGBTQ people having to come out to legitimize ourselves is unfortunate, because being both LGBTQ and a private person is like... a thing that some people are.
I think visibility is vitally important, but it should be noted that not every LGBTQ person feels the need, and that’s their right, and they’re still valid in whatever their identity may be.

 

[Carolla5501]

He’s right. It’s unfortunate that what should be private has to be made public. It’s not like it’s going to affect their skating. I feel for these young men and women. I am afraid that some are feeling pressure to provide private information to us. And at least for me I could care less. Skate like an angel and I could care less who you sleep with

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I like Joe's answer in the posted article (especially his sentence bolded by me):

I so agree. I have always said to myself..."no need to go on the cover of People magazine." But just by living an open life people will "see" that you are LGBT anyway. Visibility leads to more acceptance.

 

[overedge]

It’s unfortunate that what should be private has to be made public. It’s not like it’s going to affect their skating. I feel for these young men and women. I am afraid that some are feeling pressure to provide private information to us.

It might not affect their actual skating, but a lot of gay male skaters have been pressured *not* to come out because of the fear that it would affect the way the judges evaluated their skating, and the way their federations treated them. Especially for pairs/dance skaters who are supposed to look like part of a heterosexual couple.

And regarding who sleeps with who: look at all the gossip here about which female skater is dating which male skater, and all the breathless updates on engagements, weddings, divorces, etc. I too could care less who somebody is sleeping with (unless it's Morozov dating yet another of his students ) but apparently there are a lot of skating fans who care about heterosexual skating romances. It's kind of a double standard to say that LGBT skaters should shut up and keep their sexuality out of the sport.

 

[dramagrrl]

I think it's great the Karina came out publicly, because I'm fairly certain there has never been an out queer female figure skater at the senior international level, and it's awesome that girls who are growing up in the skating world who may be LGBT+ or even just undecided about their orientation have someone to look up to. Figure skating is still seen as such a stereotypically "feminine" sport, with talk about "pretty princesses" and even stronger, powerful skaters being afraid to skate to anything other than tinkly, "pretty" music for fear of being marked down for being less "feminine"; having someone who breaks that mold is always a good thing, IMO. (This is not to say that queer female skaters are automatically not going to display stereotypically feminine traits or not skate to "girly" music; just that it's great to see female skaters breaking out of the typical portrait of a figure skater that most people have in mind in any way.)

 

[tony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlYcxESo66E

I did an interview with them right before Skate America, and in the middle they both talk about their experiences and the reaction that they've gotten since her announcement. Watch the whole thing though-- they are absolutely charming and hilarious.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I think it’s kind of sad we care. Your sexual orientation should really not be even worthy of discussion imho. I’m glad they feel comfortable making it public but I wish that wasn’t a “big deal”. Someday maybe it won’t be

We can only wish. And the fact that just last night Brazil elected a President who has publicly said, "fathers murder your gay sons." I think coming out is so very helpful for the youth to see.

In my day all we had was the Center Square. Those my age or older will get that.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

In my day all we had was the Center Square. Those my age or older will get that.

I am and I do.

 

[skatfan]

I think it's great the Karina came out publicly, because I'm fairly certain there has never been an out queer female figure skater at the senior international level

I’m guessing there have been some (statistically it would make sense) but they haven’t come out because it would be detrimental to their perception by the skating powers that be.

Glad Karina changed the equation, and I love their FD this season!

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I think it’s kind of sad we care. Your sexual orientation should really not be even worthy of discussion imho. I’m glad they feel comfortable making it public but I wish that wasn’t a “big deal”. Someday maybe it won’t be

Imagine being asked to suppress an aspect of your life that signifies your culture/etc. For people whose race/ethnicity or faith make up a fundamental part of their lives, that would basically be unfathomable. Same goes for many LGBTQIA+ folks (such as myself). I can only speak to my experience, but it would have been amazing to know there were other queer girls in the sport. If you haven't, I highly recommend checking out Tillie Walden's Spinning—it encapsulates a lot of that loneliness and isolation I felt.

Just as "I don't see color/race" invalidates and potentially erases the experiences of POC, "I wish it wasn't a 'big deal'" falls along similar lines when it comes to sexuality/gender. A singular perspective limits who gets a seat at the table, the kinds of stories that get told, keeps the straights comfortable and gender/sexuality bias thriving.

I hope more queer skaters speak up, and don't ever shut up about it.

 

[chameleonster]

It's easy to say that sexuality should be private, but what does that mean? Should straight skaters never post about their personal lives, never mention their significant others? Every time a male skater posts a picture of his girlfriend or a female skater offhandedly mentions her boyfriend in an interview, they're referencing their sexuality. Is Keegan Messing an oversharer for posting about his recent engagement? Karina Manta came out in part because she didn't want to hide the woman she loves from the world anymore.

 

[VGThuy]

I think "coming out" for those who feel ready to or think is important is a necessity because society-at-large assumes everyone is straight unless someone "acts" gay and then people will whisper behind your back. Until society stops assuming everyone is straight until otherwise noted, then "coming out" is something that will happen and it's not always a big declaration. Sometimes it's just introducing people to your partner at a party or gathering OR just talking about regular human things and it coming out casually. People express their sexual orientation every day, even young children when they talk about who they are crushing on in their class to their parents, so saying LGBTQ folks should keep it private or we should live in a world where it's not big deal isn't really acknowledging how much people talk about their sexual orientation everyday, even if it's something as innocuous as mentioning how your DH/DW or boyfriend/girlfriend or whatever label you use to describe your partner is bad at housework.

In the recent history of figure skating, it was straight Michael Weiss who flaunted his private life more than anybody I remember. That said, I can't hate on them because they really did seem genuinely that into each other and couldn't help but to share that love.

 

[overedge]

@VIETgrlTerifa Well, that and Weiss being photographed showing off his baby-oiled manly muscular body

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

It's easy to say that sexuality should be private, but what does that mean? Should straight skaters never post about their personal lives, never mention their significant others? Every time a male skater posts a picture of his girlfriend or a female skater offhandedly mentions her boyfriend in an interview, they're referencing their sexuality. Is Keegan Messing an oversharer for posting about his recent engagement? Karina Manta came out in part because she didn't want to hide the woman she loves from the world anymore.

BRILLIANT!

 

[laviemn]

Karina coming out is also interesting in the specific context of ice dance, where there seems to be more pressure to fit traditional gender ideals than pairs (see Doug Haw's Ken & Barbie comments about Nguyen/Kolesnik), and where leaving the relationship between partners open to interpretation still seems to be an actual issue for some fans. I've seen some comments that Madison getting engaged has affected Hubbell/Donohue's chemistry, and Charlie White admitted a few years ago that he didn't talk publicly about his relationship with Tanith to help people believe the story he was telling on the ice. Karina and Joe being open can push at people's conceptions about what an ice dance team can or should be, and that can only benefit the discipline.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

AthleteAlly just launched a free online course for diversity and inclusion in athletics called "Champions of Inclusion". Given the conversation, I thought it was worth sharing in this thread:

https://allylearn.wpengine.com/

AthleteAlly is a non-profit based in the US whose mission is to foster a more inclusive space for LBGTQIA+ athletes.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

BRILLIANT!

Now I want the ISU to bring back same sex pairs, which I believe used to be a thing back in the nineteenth century.

 

[aftershocks]

I think it’s kind of sad we care. Your sexual orientation should really not be even worthy of discussion imho. I’m glad they feel comfortable making it public but I wish that wasn’t a “big deal”. Someday maybe it won’t be

At this point, it is important because our culture takes so much for granted regarding gender specific expectations, assumptions, labels and beliefs. For example, I think it would be extremely difficult for a skater in the ladies discipline to declare any kind of queer sexual orientation. It's taken a lot and many years before men felt comfortable being publicly open about being gay in the sport of figure skating. At least we are there now, but many individuals understandably and rightly prefer their privacy and don't open up very publicly, despite being known to be gay. We are far from transgender acceptance in figure skating. Forget about men skating with men or ladies skating with ladies ever being mainstream acceptable.

Perhaps that's one reason why we admire and celebrate Manta/Johnson's courageous openness. It seems to give them even more freedom and delight in their skating. That's fun to witness.

Now I want the ISU to bring back same sex pairs, which I believe used to be a thing back in the nineteenth century.

Calling @N_Halifax to confirm.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I got more heat coming out vegan than I did announcing my sexuality.

One of my besties tried veganism for a couple of weeks. But true to form, then said she got too hungry.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Now I want the ISU to bring back same sex pairs, which I believe used to be a thing back in the nineteenth century.

Similar pairs were a thing when I was a kid. I can't remember if ISI or USFSA had them (or both).

 

[aftershocks]

Doug Haw's Ken & Barbie comments about Nguyen/Kolesnik

? In a recent you know where interview perhaps? Some people no longer routinely watch TSL and thus would not have heard this reference. In what context was it made? Why can't Avonley and Vadym simply be allowed to grow as themselves without such labels!? They are such an attractive and powerful ice dance team, but they are still young and are still developing. I'm reacting because I've seen jealous comments about them in the U.S. ice dance thread. Let these two young skaters grow at their own pace and stop labeling them in any way, shape or form!

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Similar pairs were a thing when I was a kid. I can't remember if ISI or USFSA had them (or both).

It should totally be a thing, (and not really that big a deal since many sychro teams consist of girls only.)

Here's a clip of Rudy Galindo throwing Johnny Weir into a triple Axel.

 

[Skittl1321]

He’s right. It’s unfortunate that what should be private has to be made public. It’s not like it’s going to affect their skating. I feel for these young men and women. I am afraid that some are feeling pressure to provide private information to us. And at least for me I could care less. Skate like an angel and I could care less who you sleep with

It matters because previously, LGBTQ has not been welcome in skating. When no one feels the need to hide, but may not choose to share, that's when out skaters don't need to be celebrated just for being out.

Adam Rippon spoke about feeling like he was the person who would scare people away from skating whenever USFS did their regular "look this Butch guy skates".

Married skaters have always been fawned over, we clearly know "who they sleep with". Why is it okay for them to share their relationship, but LGBTQ to have to keep theirs hidden?

And "I don't care who you sleep with" seems so rude to me. That's not what coming out is about. I can only speak as an ally, but those who have shared with me have said it's about being able to be themselves.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Now I want the ISU to bring back Fours. I went to Canadian Nationals one year, and it was trippy seeing partners switch doing death spirals, throws, and lifts where one girl was elevated by one man and handed to another.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It matters because previously, LGBTQ has not been welcome in skating. When no one feels the need to hide, but may not choose to share, that's when out skaters don't need to be celebrated just for being out.

Adam Rippon spoke about feeling like he was the person who would scare people away from skating whenever USFS did their regular "look this Butch guy skates".

Married skaters have always been fawned over, we clearly know "who they sleep with". Why is it okay for them to share their relationship, but LGBTQ to have to keep theirs hidden?

And "I don't care who you sleep with" seems so rude to me. That's not what coming out is about. I can only speak as an ally, but those who have shared with me have said it's about being able to be themselves.

Having a broad spectrum of friends, when I was a lot younger I learned how to edit and censor myself. It often came down to what I think they could or couldn't handle in conversation. Fortunately a lot has changed since then.

Because sexuality is a difficult topic to broach at the best of times, one is not defined or branded by it. It is a part of who one is, just as someone who is straight, bisexual, transgender, intersex, etc.

The issue I have faced most with conservative friends and relatives, is when they cannot see past sexuality for the person, if that makes sense.

 

[Bonita]

I got more heat coming out vegan than I did announcing my sexuality.

One of my besties tried veganism for a couple of weeks. But true to form, then said she got too hungry.

LOL, my family would prefer if I was gay instead of vegan!

 

[gkelly]

Now I want the ISU to bring back same sex pairs, which I believe used to be a thing back in the nineteenth century.

To the best of my knowledge:

For most of the 19th century, figure skating was either not competitive or not centrally organized. The ISU was formed in 1892.

Most of the structured skating was focused on edge patterns that became codified as school figures.

In England especially there was something called combined skating that involved multiple skaters performing the same moves in symmetrical patterns. Most skaters at the time were men, and so most of these groups of two or more skaters would have been all male.

Here's a related picture from the continent I just found:
https://www.teeuwisse.de/catalogues...s-viii/formation-skating-waltzing-on-ice.html

Also in that era, there were Jackson Haines and (male) his Viennese disciples who sometimes performed show programs as duets and otherwise developed much of what eventually became freeskating.

And Haines and the Viennese also were instrumental in developing means of waltzing on ice, the beginnings of ice dancing. Skating in close holds was always for male-female couples to my knowledge.

As far as I know pair skating moves like lifts and death spirals were developed in the early 20th century by male-female teams.

In show skating, any kind of pairing might happen depending who was available.

Similar pairs were a thing when I was a kid. I can't remember if ISI or USFSA had them (or both).

Probably both, although the names might be different.

I remember the term "similar pairs" from when I was a kid involved with USFSA. I remember seeing two older girls practicing a show program to the Beatles' "Come Together" and when the lyrics said "come together" they came together and did a pair spin.

They currently offer duets as part of the theatrical skating/showcase track, which often are same sex.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2019 Showcase Guidelines.pdf

I see that ISI currently has events called "Couples" Similar/Mixed and also Pairs.

According to the test requirements it looks like couples programs would be all side-by-side skating and the pair programs do include some pair moves but not many lifts.

What athletic competitive male-male and female-female pair skating might look like if the ISU or other organization were to offer such events might make a good discussion topic for another thread.