2018-19 Singles & Pairs Scale of Values, Levels, and GOE guidelines

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Since the system has been in there has always been this discussion about risk vs reward. If you are giving skaters feedback, particularly with spins, you are suggesting to not try levels but do something clean because if they try to get feature, they will get a negative GOE because it isn't good quality but they could get a positive if they just went for a basic. I am talking about lower level and adult skaters. And this has been discussed at seminars. It is what it is.

I understand that dynamic.

My issue is that the risk/reward has swing too much in favor of 'don't bother with risk' which to me stifles the athletic progression that characterizes Olympic sports.

My other issue is that since PCS and to a great extent GoE are subjective (as they are currently marked), we're swinging much too much power back to the panel to choose the winner. Like...CHOOSE.

Marching back to 6.0.....and I don't like that concept of it being what it is.
 
When you have someone at Mishin's level questioning the increased power being put in the judges' hands, I think that kind of validates people's concerns about these changes.
 
I personally don’t think one fall should necessarily stop someone from winning or placing well in a competition. But I don’t think a program with a fall should get 10s in PCS. Still good PCS but not tens.

A fall is a glaring error that even a non skating fan can understand is why it should be penalized. Yes cheated jumps are a problem but they are penalized in the system and consistently doing it will hurt you big time.

I am glad though they are truly starting to deal with multiple serious errors because it was Ridiculous watching Chan or Hanyu (not to pick on Chan) at times give super sloppy performances and be rewarded with crazy high PCs. No it is not a well executed program.

This isn’t about being mean. It is a competition and sometimes all have bad days but when you are really bad the scores should reflect it. Otherwise the sport looks like a joke. People have bad days in every sport your human. In other sports you have a bad day you lose.

It is precisely because any one can see falls are errors that they should be penalized.

And I’m sorry I’m never going to be convinced putting up a sloppy skate doesn’t reflect performance I think it always does I don’t care who the skater is.

My problem with the whole well it depends on falls is I personally think there is a whole lot of subjectivity to the fall didn’t reflect on the performance. And in my mind I see falls don’t forget them. So I think it’s more fair and sportsman like to have a rule that says no 10s for fall. It leaves out the subjectivity you did the element you didn’t. If the rest of the skating is good you still get good credits for what you do well and still may end up with higher PCS than a skater who will never earn 10s
 
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I understand that dynamic.

My issue is that the risk/reward has swing too much in favor of 'don't bother with risk' which to me stifles the athletic progression that characterizes Olympic sports.
And then people complain about programs that have falls or wonder why it becomes a jumping competition.

I don't think whatever decisions are made that a group will not be happy and other group will be happy.
 
A fall is a glaring error that even a non skating fan can understand is why it should be penalized. Yes cheated jumps are a problem but they are penalized in the system and consistently doing it will hurt you big time.

Falls are also already “penalized in the system.” There are issues with PCS scoring, but I don’t think it is in relation to falls. To use your example of Chan, yes, his SS are that good that he could fall two or three time (no, he has never fallen 5 times in a program!) and his SS are still that good and superior to the other men and far superior to most. Unless you have seen him live, you really don’t know.

The problem with PCS is the inability of judges to give a 10 for performance and a 6 for SS and a 8 for transitions, or what ever. It is quite possible for a skater to be a master performer and have just average Skating skills, or vice versa. Linking PCS to falls is just moving the system further away from marking what is actually happening on the ice.
 
And then people complain about programs that have falls or wonder why it becomes a jumping competition.

I don't think whatever decisions are made that a group will not be happy and other group will be happy.

Understood.

I think increasing the deductions for mistakes AND downgrading base values is quite an unnecessary move. Really going to hurt the sport's development.

I have said too many times that skating needs to decide what it wants to be. Sport or art, predominantly. Yes it's both but one has to be the priority. For all Olympic sports, it's 'sport'.
ISU is going back to making most of the scoring subjective. If it had any objective of building credibility as a sport, it can cast those notions aside.

Now having said all that, there is one financial benefit to trending back to 6.0. Under that system you can incubate stars. Those are the good skaters with the most audience appeal and potential to fill stands. You keep those folks on the podium for nearly a full cycle and you have ready made appealing faces for the posters. Audiences become more familiar and attached and that drags revenue along with it. As a skater, you just have to hope you're one of the chosen ones as it very much becomes an environment of haves and have nots.
 
Understood.

I think increasing the deductions for mistakes AND downgrading base values is quite an unnecessary move. Really going to hurt the sport's development.

Are talking in general or about quads specifically?

If the potential positive GOEs are also increased, then the scoring potential of successful quads remains high. But unsuccessful quads will no longer be able to outweigh stronger skating/triple jumps/spins and steps/other program components just by rotating 4 times in the air.

I have said too many times that skating needs to decide what it wants to be. Sport or art, predominantly. Yes it's both but one has to be the priority. For all Olympic sports, it's 'sport'.

Another question is whether the sport of figure skating is about what the blades do on the ice or about what the body does in the air. I'm not sure the ISU is specifically thinking in these terms, but there is a case to be made in favor of a scale of values and other rules that place more emphasis on Skating Skills and Transitions as technical content/quality, and on takeoff and landing edges and other blade-to-ice skills connected with the jumps and throughout the step sequences, while decreasing (at least relatively), the value of what happens with no blade on the ice.

It may be more "sporty" to reward rotation in the air more than any other skills, and certainly more evident to casual viewers, but is it appropriate true to the essence of figure skating technique, of what makes figure skating figure skating?

To the extent that technical quality assessed by human eyeballs and human brains deciding what qualifies as "good" or "very good" or "poor," yes there is subjectivity, but no more than other judged sports. You could eliminate the PE, CO, and IN components entirely, take out the music completely, and there would still be subjectivity in this sense.

Someday in the not-too-distance future it might be possible with technology to measure things like speed, ice coverage, edge depth, height and distance of jumps, etc., completely objectively. Maybe the security and quality of the edges and turns with comparable or better accuracy than the eyeballs of judges standing and squatting on the ice to assess those qualities of school figures. Would making these assessments more objective increase the sportiness?

How about quantifying the difficulty of unlisted moves and of connections into and out of and between elements so there would be a more objective standard of what constitutes a more difficult program assuming the jump content is the same? Perhaps to the level that a program full of difficult and high-quality connections and skating skill, and spins and steps, throughout, can outweigh a program with one or two more quads in place of triples and much lower quality and non-jump content. But high difficulty connecting multiple successful quads, all with high quality, would easily triumph over either.


Just wondering... Casual audiences in general are probably most interested in easily quantifiable jump content, without obvious errors, and in personalities/charisma/star quality that might or might not connect to high skill level in the more artistic components.

A subset of the lay audience is highly interested in the artistic side of skating in ways that can be appreciate by applying standards used for enjoying reality TV dance contests or other performing arts or performance-related sports, with standards more refined than the casual "I like what I like" but more focused on the whole body including facial expression and not much on what the blades are doing.

How much overlap is there between audiences who come for the big jumps and the big personalities and the risk of falls, and audiences who come for the artistry?

Can casual sports fans and casual arts fans and technical skating purists all be satisfied at once?
 
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If the potential positive GOEs are also increased, then the scoring potential of successful quads remains high. But unsuccessful quads will no longer be able to outweigh stronger skating/triple jumps/spins and steps/other program components just by rotating 4 times in the air.

One of the tough parts is that I'm not sure it's biomechanically possible to get +4/+5 quads the way the scoring system is defined. A 0 or +1 quad is still 'successful' so I bump this up against a high GOE triple (talking quad throws, quad singles jumps, quad twists).

I look at it this way. Take pairs. How many teams can do high GOE 3Tw or throw triples vs how many can do a 4Tw or quad throw of at least 0 GOE? High quality triples are done routinely at the junior level and above yet you can count on one hand how many can successfully execute a quad twist or throw. That tells me a quad is MUCH MUCH harder to do...and should be rewarded accordingly in relation to a high quality triple. It's not. They are comparable. So to me the scoring is out of wack relative to difficulty. (note I do understand quads not allowed in juniors, so that makes it tougher to compare. But even in seniors....)

Curious to see how many teams will be training quads going forward. Probabaly a very small handful -- less than we see now -- and probably limited to only those who think they have a legit shot at high GoE. Otherwise no point learning it. Too hard/not worth the time and effort. That's regressive to me.
 
The problem with PCS is the inability of judges to give a 10 for performance and a 6 for SS and a 8 for transitions, or what ever. It is quite possible for a skater to be a master performer and have just average Skating skills, or vice versa.

This. This, this, a thousand times this.

This is what's wrong with the judges when it comes to PCS. It is very very rare that the judges accurately evaluate what is done on the ice. Instead they give blanket scores for all 5 components depending on where you fall in the competitive tiers.

A skater can be great in one area and not so great in another; that's why there are a range of scores. Rather that utilize that range the judges treat PCS like a "one size fits all" when it comes to the categories. This helps to boost the favorites and hold down the lower skaters, regardless of what either does on the ice.

How many times have we seen a skater receive a massive bump in PCS over the course of a season simply b/c they are hitting their jumps? How many times has that bump actually been warranted? According to the judges landing jumps is the equivalent of improving your choreography, your interpretation, your skating skills and your transitions all at once. When skaters who are weaker in these areas begin receiving high marks without doing anything different, what incentive is there for that skater to actually put effort into improving?

On the flip side, you have the non-favorites. These are the ones who make visible improvements to their skating yet the judges don't give them any recognition for it. They're not earmarked for the podium like the favorites so it doesn't matter what they do...their scores barely move and if they do, it's never enough to make a difference. I've seen skaters have wonderful performances that are just as good as if not better than the favorites, yet that skater receives significantly lower scores. Of course GOE factors into this too. Favorites receive plenty of +GOE and non-favorites receive little to none, regardless of the quality of the element being performed.

It all comes down to the ones giving out the scores. Instead of changing the system every year, maybe the ISU should invest some time and energy into finding a way to coax more objectivity out of their judges. Educate them, monitor them, hold them accountable. Giving them more power to sway the outcome of competitions is the opposite of what needs to happen.
 
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Now having said all that, there is one financial benefit to trending back to 6.0. Under that system you can incubate stars. Those are the good skaters with the most audience appeal and potential to fill stands. You keep those folks on the podium for nearly a full cycle and you have ready made appealing faces for the posters. Audiences become more familiar and attached and that drags revenue along with it. As a skater, you just have to hope you're one of the chosen ones as it very much becomes an environment of haves and have nots.
I don't even understand why people think that the answer to the sport's "problems" is to go back to a system that was clearly outdated, unaccountable and and tied up a skater's performance in two marks that at the end of day was just a placement system. It was totally subjective and the deductions were never clearly reflected in what a performance was given.

You will never ever get agreement on a perfect system for a subjectively judged sport, not matter how many ways you try to spin it.
 
It all comes down to the ones giving out the scores. Instead of changing the system every year, maybe the ISU should invest some time and energy into finding a way to coax more objectivity out of their judges. Educate them, monitor them, hold them accountable. Giving them more power to sway the outcome of competitions is the opposite of what needs to happen.
The ISU does do that and they do evaluate judges after pretty much all international events at Senior and Junior level. Judges do get asked to explain their marks. They also run seminars every year and there is also the conference in Frankfurt where judges go to be evaluated and examined. Believe it or not, many judges and officials do not make it through the examination.

But you are dealing with a system that depends on people making decisions which in the hierarchy of controls is the lowest form of control. How a person thinks and behaves is something that you have very little control over at the end of the day.

I would really love to see "armchair athletes" try and do the job. It is a lot harder than you think.
 
It all comes down to the ones giving out the scores. Instead of changing the system every year, maybe the ISU should invest some time and energy into finding a way to coax more objectivity out of their judges. Educate them, monitor them, hold them accountable. Giving them more power to sway the outcome of competitions is the opposite of what needs to happen.

If you encourage judges to give wider ranges of component scores, you will be giving them ore power to sway the outcome of competitions.

Of course, if they're doing it on the basis of better, more consistent standards of evaluating each component separately, then that would be a good thing. That's exactly what judges are supposed to do -- contribute to the determination of the results based on their expert evaluation of the skating.

If they're doing it on the basis of who comes from the same country or skates in the judge's preferred style, then that's a problem, regardless of whether the trend, or the individual judge's practice, is to bunch PCS for each skater or to spread them.
 
The ISU does do that and they do evaluate judges after pretty much all international events at Senior and Junior level. Judges do get asked to explain their marks. They also run seminars every year and there is also the conference in Frankfurt where judges go to be evaluated and examined. Believe it or not, many judges and officials do not make it through the examination.

I would really love to see "armchair athletes" try and do the job. It is a lot harder than you think.


We have tried to do the job. Or at least, we made as good-faith of an effort as I've seen so far. Links below. :):D

http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/2016/10/well-be-judge-of-that-2014-sochi.html
https://adivinesport.com/2016/10/11/walking-in-the-judges-shoes-the-sochi-judging-project/

Of course, we've only tried judging 1 competition so far, and under different conditions (and without the time constraints) that actual judges do. But, we did try. And we realized that the judges' job is pretty difficult and demanding.

Despite the challenges, though, I don't believe we marked every PCS component in the same narrow corridor as you typically see in real life, and which @kwanatic was referencing in her post.
 
We have tried to do the job. Or at least, we made as good-faith of an effort as I've seen so far. Links below. :):D

http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/2016/10/well-be-judge-of-that-2014-sochi.html
https://adivinesport.com/2016/10/11/walking-in-the-judges-shoes-the-sochi-judging-project/

Of course, we've only tried judging 1 competition so far, and under different conditions (and without the time constraints) that actual judges do. But, we did try. And we realized that the judges' job is pretty difficult and demanding.

Despite the challenges, though, I don't believe we marked every PCS component in the same narrow corridor as you typically see in real life, and which @kwanatic was referencing in her post.

You beat me to it @clairecloutier ;)

Re: @Aussie Willy, I do judge the competitions especially when I disagree with the results. Obviously judging an event at home after I've already seen it once isn't a direct comparison to watching something in real time and coming up with scores within the time constraints of a competition. The scoring project was an attempt to get the fans' take on the outcome. It was a massive undertaking (which is why I haven't attempted to do another yet) but I do feel as though it was a good experience for our group. As @clairecloutier noted in her take on the project, it opened up a lot of questions regarding the overwhelming task judges are faced with when it comes to judging. There is a lot that has to be taken into account...perhaps a too much. This is why I'm all for a split judging panel. Dividing the workload means the judges can focus more on each criteria with the hope being that the scores are more in line with what was delivered on the ice.

It's good to know that judges get evaluated. However, maybe the way they are assessed needs to be examined and/or overhauled. I say that simply b/c if the evaluation and education were working effectively it stands to reason that the judging would somehow have improved over the past few years. I don't feel that is the case.
 
I first got interested in the process of evaluating/judging figure skating many years ago when a coach asked me to judge a Basic Skills competition. I've done quite a few of them since.

Other ways I have frequently mock-judged skating to learn more about the rules and guidelines, under 6.0 and then the various iterations of IJS, and to have the fun of going through the thought processes:

*Watching videos of past elite events that I didn't know the results of already

*Watching live videos of events as they happen, on TV and more recently online -- the ISU JGP stream on youtube is great for this because there's such a wide range of skill levels in each event, with random skate order in the short programs

*Attending live local events, sitting in the stands and taking notes and assigning scores -- watching all different levels of skating and seeing the differences between e.g., good juveniles and so-so seniors at a club competition, was very instructive

*Buying tickets to elite events and doing the same

I never felt comfortable post-judging elite competitions after the fact when I already knew the results, especially under 6.0, because I didn't feel I could just record my observations and make my own decisions honestly -- there was always internal pressure either to prove the official results wrong or to prove them right. I'd rather just judge the skating on its own merits and not try to judge the judges at the same time.

It was always a treat to get a live competition or to be able to watch a taped competition unspoiled, so I could practice judge without preconceptions.

With IJS, I don't mind as much as I already know the results as long as I don't already know anything about the kinds of GOEs and PCS the panel awarded.

Afterward I check my scores against the official judges' to see where I agreed and where I disagreed. Sometimes I tried to figure out why the panel did something different from what I had and found something else to notice and value in my review. Other times I remain confident in my original decisions and just agree to disagree with the majority of the official judges.

I realize not everyone likes to watch skating this way and might only try it once or twice as an exercise. But I found I prefer to watch closely and analyze. When I just sit back and enjoy, I don't get as much out of the performances.

YMMV. But if you enjoy that analytical process yourself, try it more often, with different levels of competitions in person where possible and without knowing the results. I think it's a great way to put the judging process and the elite scoring into context.
 
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It's good to know that judges get evaluated. However, maybe the way they are assessed needs to be examined and/or overhauled. I say that simply b/c if the evaluation and education were working effectively it stands to reason that the judging would somehow have improved over the past few years. I don't feel that is the case.
I suppose the question to ask is what standard are you evaluating the judges against? Is it your own or is it against the guidelines? This is probably the most difficult thing to ascertain when it comes to subjective systems.

I know a number of times I have seen on this forum people going off about results, yet in the analysis they are just blowing off steam because they were not happy with the result. Others will look at one GOE out of the hundreds that get dished out over the course of an event and point to that as evidence of judging incompetence or worse still corruption. Doesn't matter that throughout the rest of the event the judge has been pretty consistent.
 
I suppose the question to ask is what standard are you evaluating the judges against? Is it your own or is it against the guidelines? This is probably the most difficult thing to ascertain when it comes to subjective systems.

I know a number of times I have seen on this forum people going off about results, yet in the analysis they are just blowing off steam because they were not happy with the result. Others will look at one GOE out of the hundreds that get dished out over the course of an event and point to that as evidence of judging incompetence or worse still corruption. Doesn't matter that throughout the rest of the event the judge has been pretty consistent.

It's a combination of both really. When you break it down and assess one skater's performance against the guidelines compared to another, there have been times where Skater A checked all of the boxes just like Skater B, yet Skater B got a significantly higher score. Of course my subjectivity plays into it (as everyone's does), though I do consider myself a somewhat level-headed knowledgeable fan :). I have my favorites but I'm not opposed to giving credit where it is due.

My blog follows the women's event. Usually if I'm upset with the outcome of an event I give my reasoning for why I disagree with the results. My first "I'll Be The Judge of That" post was due to the results of the 2013 US nationals. Like a lot of people I didn't understand how Ashley came out on top that year with her two-fall FS. I figured her score should have been a lot lower. However, when I went back and actually judged it I realized it was impossible to make the number I originally thought she deserved materialize without seriously low-balling her across the board. I don't know how many people go as in-depth as @gkelly or I do when it comes to scores :lol:, but it definitely gave me a better understanding about the scoring process.

Inflated scores annoy me but if the outcome seems legit, I can let it go. It's when someone's inflated scores sway the competition...that's when I get pissed.:angryfire
 
It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else likes or doesn't like. A fall is a major error and a mistake. You can't just ignore it. PCS is supposed to evaluate the program as a whole...one cohesive unit. A program with a fall is not cohesive, or rather is certainly less cohesive than it would be without a fall. Dropping one component out of the five from 9.75 to 6.75 for men in the FS equals a PCS drop of 6 points. When top men are getting on average 200 points, and scoring 300, 6 points is pennies and does not adequately reflect the scale of the error.
Sounds like you are basing your opinion regarding whether falls should lead to a mandatory deduction in PCS on whether they impact the viewer’s enjoyment/perception of a performance. Falls may be super disruptive to you but much more minor to others who may focus a lot more on other aspects of the performance and whose enjoyment of a particular program may not be affected by a fall or two. So it’s not necessary to state your philosophy of figure skating appreciation as if they were universally accepted truth.
 
It's a combination of both really. When you break it down and assess one skater's performance against the guidelines compared to another, there have been times where Skater A checked all of the boxes just like Skater B, yet Skater B got a significantly higher score. Of course my subjectivity plays into it (as everyone's does), though I do consider myself a somewhat level-headed knowledgeable fan :). I have my favorites but I'm not opposed to giving credit where it is due.

My blog follows the women's event. Usually if I'm upset with the outcome of an event I give my reasoning for why I disagree with the results. My first "I'll Be The Judge of That" post was due to the results of the 2013 US nationals. Like a lot of people I didn't understand how Ashley came out on top that year with her two-fall FS. I figured her score should have been a lot lower. However, when I went back and actually judged it I realized it was impossible to make the number I originally thought she deserved materialize without seriously low-balling her across the board. I don't know how many people go as in-depth as @gkelly or I do when it comes to scores :lol:, but it definitely gave me a better understanding about the scoring process.

Inflated scores annoy me but if the outcome seems legit, I can let it go. It's when someone's inflated scores sway the competition...that's when I get pissed.:angryfire
I think when we are discussing these topics that we do have to look at our perceptions and how they play into the what we think about the judging and our criticisms of it or the system.

For example I always have this discussion with a friend about opinions and facts. He will get there and tell me that so and so on the radio is very left wing. I keep saying that is your perception and your opinion and thus is not a fact.

I don't want to discuss politics here, but what I am trying to demonstrate is how we view performances in skating and then the judging them is very driven by our own perceptions and opinions. If we think there is a problem with the system it says more about our views rather than making our arguments based on actual facts.

On the other hand, a skater falls - that is a fact. Applying a negative GOE should be answer to the question. But then when people start arguing how the PCS are applied when a program has a fall, that then becomes opinions and the variation of them are up for discussion. But they are just opinions and not facts. When you are so dogmatic with your opinion, it still doesn't make your argument factual.

Not a skating thing (more political) but this definitely relates to opinions and facts and explains it very well.

https://www.facebook.com/ABCiview/videos/1522251387797501/
 
Falls are also already “penalized in the system.” There are issues with PCS scoring, but I don’t think it is in relation to falls. To use your example of Chan, yes, his SS are that good that he could fall two or three time (no, he has never fallen 5 times in a program!) and his SS are still that good and superior to the other men and far superior to most. Unless you have seen him live, you really don’t know.

The problem with PCS is the inability of judges to give a 10 for performance and a 6 for SS and a 8 for transitions, or what ever. It is quite possible for a skater to be a master performer and have just average Skating skills, or vice versa. Linking PCS to falls is just moving the system further away from marking what is actually happening on the ice.

I’m not saying Patrick Chan falls Patrick Chan should get 6s. I’m saying Patrick Chan falls he shouldn’t get a ten and multiple falls shouldn’t get 9.5s and I frankly think more 8.5. Guess what those are still higher PCS than a lot of skaters get. It is just less than he would usually get because he didn’t skate his best.

And I don’t think PCS wise he is as good when he is repeatedly falling.

For example successfully executing a landing jump does require some skills with your blade at least some so if you are falling all over.

You can say that oh this skater had good transitions and isn’t it about linking the elements but if your falling all over on the elements and pooping those aren’t well executed transitions something about said program is too hard.

How one skates on the day should have some factor into PCs otherwise they are reputation based and I’m sorry that is hugely problematic.

And the only thing I have to say about this is to say multiple falls aren’t that big of a deal is to say the spectator doesn’t matter. And no I don’t think the spectators know everything and can get a vote but it is ridiculous to say that glaring errors should be ignored either. If you should Denis Tens world championship skates and Patrick Chan’s world championships skates back to back to five year old they would say Patrick was sloppy.

And I’m sorry yes Chen has better skating skills but Denis Ten still has excellent skating skills himself and did two gorgeous programs with high technical content. The reason he lost was due to PCs he didn’t have Chen’s reputation so he didn’t get huge PCs in the short even and his PCs miraculous went up big time even though he was better in the long. But still the fact that Chan got higher PCs in the long for that horrific skate was ridiculous and it makes the sport more a laughing stock. In a judge sport reputation matters but you should at least get more penalized when you do poorly.


And it’s not just casual fans who have talked about this it is knowledgeably well respected skating coaches skaters who Agree with me.

I’m sorry but it is going to destroy the sport to say executing the elements well has nothing to do with presentation.
 
Sounds like you are basing your opinion regarding whether falls should lead to a mandatory deduction in PCS on whether they impact the viewer’s enjoyment/perception of a performance. Falls may be super disruptive to you but much more minor to others who may focus a lot more on other aspects of the performance and whose enjoyment of a particular program may not be affected by a fall or two. So it’s not necessary to state your philosophy of figure skating appreciation as if they were universally accepted truth.

You, too, are confused.
 
Thanks for posting the links. Great initiative to put these up. I only watching the Singles and I think the examples are very good. I am glad they used Misha Ge for ChSq and Steps. But I did like the example in the Steps of using the music. I don't know who the skater is but that was really interesting. I think it is wise not to put negative GOE examples on there because it is out in public and would create all sorts of problems (basically naming and shaming skaters).

Interesting also reading the comments. Just as I thought, nothing the ISU does is ever good enough and people have to criticise it and the individuals involved in presenting. There is no need to get personal and nasty. The tool is for judges education but spectators will get some benefit out of watching these. If you were doing the ISU seminar you would get a lot more examples and also they would show examples of negative GOEs.

Anyway I really appreciate seeing it.
 
The singles presentation (if you can call it that) was a joke. I wish I could get by with half-assed work. They provided absolutely no insight whatsoever and explained nothing. And don’t these need a point-of-reference? How can you show an example of “good” without also showing an example of “not good.” And if these are just “guidelines” then how are there “compulsory” bullets?

Oh well. As Bianchetti said “It’s absolutely the same as before.”
 
The singles presentation (if you can call it that) was a joke. I wish I could get by with half-assed work. They provided absolutely no insight whatsoever and explained nothing. And don’t these need a point-of-reference? How can you show an example of “good” without also showing an example of “not good.” And if these are just “guidelines” then how are there “compulsory” bullets?

Oh well. As Bianchetti said “It’s absolutely the same as before.”
The presentation was for judges, not the general public. It was not meant to be a 6 hour presentation which went into everything in depth. Keeping it short and to the point is a better way to go.

Also by showing examples of not good would be naming and shaming skaters which is not a good idea either. People would actually be more upset about that. And then accuse the ISU of being biased against certain skaters.

The ISU, whatever they try to do will be damned and damned if they don't.
 
The presentation was for judges, not the general public. It was not meant to be a 6 hour presentation which went into everything in depth. Keeping it short and to the point is a better way to go.

Also by showing examples of not good would be naming and shaming skaters which is not a good idea either. People would actually be more upset about that. And then accuse the ISU of being biased against certain skaters.

The ISU, whatever they try to do will be damned and damned if they don't.

What useful information did this "webinar" provide?
 

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