SamuraiK
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Take a guess..
2018-19 Singles & Pairs Scale of Values, Levels, and GOE guidelines
Take a guess..
Aussie Willy
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That is very passive aggressive
sleepingsleeping
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If you examine the GOE and PCS of each judge, you will see how political and intentional tools GOE and PCS are. Because you can raise or lower as many as 40 points at the discretion of the judge about the same performance and the same elements. If you raise your country's players by 20 points and lower rival players by 20 points, 40 points of operation will be possible. The problem of Chinese judges is only a part of the problem. Other judges are doing the same thing. Increasing the width of the GOE will further close up the problem. You will understand soon. Objections from each competitor against the judges, dissatisfaction and debate will increase.
One of the things I have advocated for ISU is that it invest in regulating itself. Most major sports do this.
The NBA (baskeball, for those outside of North America) for example will watch and analyze tape from the last few minutes of every game. It will publish admission of errors by the officials and this will go on the records of the officials. It affects their ability to be eligible for the biggest games/events.
ISU does a little of this with big picture sanctions for bias judging, but it needs to go deeper.
URs is one area, GoE will need to be another because it will be wild west with the scoring I'm sure.
I have debated with posters here on why Skater X got mostly +3s for a spin. I'm given all these reasons why the spin was so great. I then ask 'OK, Skaters A, B, and D all did the same things to the same degree yet they got 0s and +1s. Does this seems fair?'....and the cone of silence descends....or they say 'well I can't comment on them but I feel that for Skater X.....'
and that's the issue. Consistency and accountability has to be there. I want to see ISU work harder at this.
yyyyyyyyup
More subjectivity in scoring system. No accountability.
More power to pick who you want and place them where you want
#backtosixpointzero
Aussie Willy
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Because a judging system where two marks totally sum a skater's performance, then ranks them because a judge feels that one skater is better than other, based on more subjectivity and less accountability, is the way to advance a sport.
Unless you can get a computer to totally analyse skaters programs, you will never have an objective system if you are relying on human based judging.
On the other hand, I recommend that anyone who thinks the problem is everyone else, contact your local associations and start judging. Because you will obviously do so much better and be more objective and accountable.
Cop out.
"Judging is nuanced and involves humans and it's really hard to be perfect at it. If you think it's so easy you go learn now to do it."
Bleh.
Lots of upside to be had in judging prowess and consistency. No it will never be perfect but it can be much better. Let's continue to push for better if we do see areas of improvement. It's great for the sport and fair to the athletes.
The problem with judging bias will stay whichever system there is. But at least IJS recognizes elements and gives each of them a value, so there is more basis for someone's total score / placement. When a judge gives a 5.6 for technical merit under 6.0, you just do not know how much credit was given for that 2-footed 3flutz.
MAXSwagg
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Why is it even called 6.0. All that matters is the ordinals. Of course, the marks are supposed to reflect the ordinal but more often than not they did not.
Aussie Willy
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Not trying to cop out. There are whole theories about human based systems and how they are set up to fail.
But if you are going to be so disparaging about a whole system and culture, and behave like you are the expert, then the normal response is get out there are do it yourself instead of sitting there and criticising.
That's another problem with the 6.0 system. I simply don't know whether the chicken comes first or the egg. Do judges independently come up with their 2 scores without regard to ordinals and final placements, or do they first decide where to place a skater and then come up with the scores.
With IJS, they can somewhat do the same, but their ability to influence actual placement is reduced because of the objective BV scores involved. With IJS, judges would have a very very hard time manipulating the scores to ensure the gold for Oksana Baiul given how technically lacking she was.
sleepingsleeping
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"Judging is nuanced." It is exactly what I would like to say. The problem is judgment of lutz and flip edges and UR judgment.
For example, many men's top players are not jumping flips at a clear inside edge. It is jumping at the flat edge. Many athletes are jumping from the flat edge to the last on the outedge. Despite the jumps like "e" and "!", If the technical judgment is overlooked, they get GOE+3 etc. Borderline jump suddenly evaluates to +3or＋2．
It is strange.
https://skatecanada.ca/results/2017-ACI/CSCAN2017_SeniorMen_FS_Scores.pdf
Javier FERNANDEZ
3Fe+1Lo+2S e
Yuzuru HANYU
3F !
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_MenSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf
3F in Olympic Games
https://imgur.com/a/Rza97jj
Expanding the range of GOE will increase the problem.
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sleepingsleeping
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Under the 6.0 system, ISU and judges are free to do so under a wide discretion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_figure_skating
Until the Salt Lake Olympics in 2002, there are no champions except Europe and North America. Racially neither black nor Asian people or African people exclude Kristy Yamaguchi.
Under the new judgment system, ISU and judges can not be decided freely.
With the revision of 2018 - 2019, I think that ISU wants to increase the range of discretion and bring it closer to the 6.0 system.
If you want to expand the range of GOE, I think that you should set more detailed criteria and eliminate the variation among judges. Also, I think that the system that adds the plus and minus of GOE is the cause of opening judgment between judges. At least the obvious failure, such as FALL, should be must GOE -5.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_figure_skating
Until the Salt Lake Olympics in 2002, there are no champions except Europe and North America. Racially neither black nor Asian people or African people exclude Kristy Yamaguchi.
Under the new judgment system, ISU and judges can not be decided freely.
With the revision of 2018 - 2019, I think that ISU wants to increase the range of discretion and bring it closer to the 6.0 system.
If you want to expand the range of GOE, I think that you should set more detailed criteria and eliminate the variation among judges. Also, I think that the system that adds the plus and minus of GOE is the cause of opening judgment between judges. At least the obvious failure, such as FALL, should be must GOE -5.
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That's what I meant, yes. Wanting the benefits of 6.0 (making the scoring system and application as subjective as possible to give panels increasing power to rank skaters how they want) while maintaining IJS.
I don't think IOC would support an actual return to 6.0. In the post 2002 mandate to 'clean up your sport' to maintain Olympic status there was either a clear or implied directive to change the scoring system and its application.
That page I think is permanently turned.
sleepingsleeping
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singles (25 min): https://youtu.be/jN4RFeiuGn8
pairs (40 min): https://youtu.be/RLxv9NeuLXM
Are there bias in the region and race of people involved in rule revision?
pairs (40 min): https://youtu.be/RLxv9NeuLXM
Are there bias in the region and race of people involved in rule revision?
Exactly.
I remember back in the day when Toller Cranston was commentating. He said he sat on a plane next to a top international judge and said "suppose a Romanian girl walked into the World Championships and laid down the cleanest, most beautiful set of figures you have ever seen. Would you put her (near the top)?". The judge paused and answered simply, "no".
Toller went on to say that based on the contents of the rest of the conversation he's suprised the ISU just doesn't let judges fax in the results remotely before the competition even starts.
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sleepingsleeping
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"Rulers for competing" is not common, "competition" will not be established, it can not be said sports. Judge A judges the same element of the same competitor as "+3", judge B judges "-2". It is only that the condition for "competing" has not been established.
I'm not so sure about the race part. I think it's more about the power distribution among top skating countries. CAN, USA, RUS and a few European countries ran everything in the back rooms and dominated on the score sheets. Every country had their domains. RUS owned dance and pairs, USA owned single events, CAN had a presence in pairs and men, East GER had ladies. GBR had men and then T/D in dance.
All the top countries had a piece of the sport and thus their ability to promote and grow the sport at home was available and preserved.
IJS OTOH meant anyone could theoretically win, especially if you had strong tech or decent tech and exceptional components. That caused chaos to the world order. What's worse (in the eyes of ISU), those REALLY pushing tech could TES their way to victory without (necessarily) the accompanying star power to consistently fill the stands. I think this dynamic was a part of the problem and contributing to waning fan interest in some places.
The dominance and influence of TES could have been suppressed by simply marking components properly. I don't want to distract the conversation by naming names but we know there are athletes without 9 level components (or +3 GoE across the board) getting those marks because of their base TES. At least under 6.0 you had panels unafraid to give you 5.9/5.5 (Harding, Ito, Bonaly), especially if you are very young and your skating maturity hadn't developed. That dynamic was disappearing, thus causing TES to drive the sport even more.
If you want to make sure the complete skater is on top, that's how you could have fixed it. Not by the regressive action to downgrade tech value. But that's easier to do than fix the judging. A whole other angle as to why I'm disappointed in the change.
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sleepingsleeping
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Most of the young players who jump a lot of difficult jumps are the players who have been highly valued skating skills and PCS since they were in junior. Players with low evaluation of PCS have not come to TOP.
At the discretion of the judge you were able to win a white blonde girl or a white boy. Because you can not do it, you want to get closer to the 6.0 system. Is not it such a thing? I think that it is no longer a sport.
At the discretion of the judge you were able to win a white blonde girl or a white boy. Because you can not do it, you want to get closer to the 6.0 system. Is not it such a thing? I think that it is no longer a sport.
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sleepingsleeping
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It is impossible to prevent national bias if wider discretion is given to the judge. Because they only judged with the wide discretion given to them.
"+3" can be attached to the performance of a certain element, and "-2" can also be attached.
It is difficult to point out that judgment of a judge is wrong under such rules.
We will not be able to condemn or eliminate Chinese judges. We are repayed from the judge of China that "I only gave a point I thought was correct".
https://www.buzzfeed.com/johntemplon/the-edge?utm_term=.dajd0oXZB#.jmQZm3YDj
Toigo told BuzzFeed News. “We are human beings, not machines. I judge what I think. ”
By increasing the discretion of the discretion of the judges, the sense of inequality and problems of this sport will increase.
The problem of national bias is solved only by specifying the rules finely and narrowing the discretion of the judges.
I think that this is a great thing to do, however I can understand why the ISU would be hesitant to do it. Not only because I'm sure the ISU knows national bias happens and doesn't care for whatever reason (bias of ISU administrators, bribes, maintaining the status quo), but also because of the publicity.
One of the things the NBA has to deal with by virtue of releasing these things is openly admitting that their refs aren't always right and that games have been decided by bad calls. They're admitting the results are wrong, even if the result can't be changed. I don't think the ISU will ever do that - they don't seem to like admitting they're wrong. In some cases it might have wider implications: if they'd found some wrongdoing and admitted it at the 2014 Olympics, South Korea's lawsuit would've gone much further.
One of the reasons it works in the NBA is because even in the championship there's more than one game to play, so if a bad call determines a game it doesn't necessarily change who makes the playoffs (an 82 game season) or who wins the championship (best of 7). In skating, there's only one Olympics every four years, so bad judging makes a much bigger difference.
One of the few good posts I found on the figure skating subreddit was one that did a statistical analysis of national bias. They found that most top judges regardless of nationality showed some degree of statistically evident bias. Maybe the ISU should rely on statistics like this to screen judges for bias and put all judges with the most statistical evidence on probation or closer monitoring or something...
The irony of this. I’m sure it’s possible he learned after he was caught on camera, but this was the same judge who copied every single GOE from a nearby judge at a JGP circa 2010. He wasn’t judging what he thought- he was judging what everyone else thought.
And he came back without any kind of additional training or testing to make sure he understood the system well enough to make those decisions, from what I have heard.
Has that hurt the NBA or the NFL that do this? Not at all.
While the public complains about the obvious mess ups by officials, deep down inside they understand that blown calls are a part of the game.
What they DO expect is that leagues/governing bodies work hard at improving officiating by reviewing it and holding people accountable such that bad decisions trend toward rarity.
The net publicity of this approach is very much positive.
If the ISU fears the publicity it would be because of the volume of mistakes being made for the reasons you cite. So the idea of not admitting or addressing mistakes -- even internally at first until things get under control -- because of the sheer volume of judging errors spells dysfunction to a level I can't really comprehend.
What's more, IMHO the volumes of public that have either stayed away from or turned their back on skating know this. Which is part of the reason non-watchers make comments about this 'not being a (real) sport' or it being a 'judged sport'. It's not simply that judging exists -- they just sense all the dysfunction which to them turns it into an Olympic version of Dancing with the Stars. People jump around trying to impress the audience and biased judges pick winners based on some criteria that has only a loose connection to what was put down in the athletic performance. The whole schtick is just not legitimate to them and therefore can't be taken seriously.
To me there is just no reason to avoid moving a sport forward and boosting its integrity. But to do this, you have to completely surrender control of the outcomes. That's a step I don't see the ISU ever willing to take in my lifetime.
Aussie Willy
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There is a school of thought out there that any judged sport is not a sport because of the human decision making involved in deciding who wins. That includes diving and gymnastics. You are always going to have a hard time convincing those people otherwise because it is not first past the post, involves scoring goals or against the clock.
But I think you would find that most casual viewers couldn't give a rats about the judging side of it. They watch it during the Olympics or when it on TV and enjoy it for what it is.
I just don't understand if you find the sport has absolutely no integrity that you would even be interested in it. Most of us would walk away and not have anything to do with it instead of getting on there and banging on about their perceived issues.
But I think you would find that most casual viewers couldn't give a rats about the judging side of it. They watch it during the Olympics or when it on TV and enjoy it for what it is.
I just don't understand if you find the sport has absolutely no integrity that you would even be interested in it. Most of us would walk away and not have anything to do with it instead of getting on there and banging on about their perceived issues.
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BittyBug
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And yet most sports involve some type of judgment. All sports with balls have referees and umpires that make judgments about whether the rules have been breached. Races involve judgment about whether someone had a false start, crossed a lane or failed to pass within the zone. And one can find many examples where the winner was determined by such a call.
@Aussie Willy But at the same time, I feel like there is a lot of confusion. I remember watching ESPN's talking heads discussing it. They were talking about how they enjoyed skating, but were confused. They were confused because a fall in the other judged winter Olympic sports (snowboarding, skiing, etc.) tanks scores so low the person is out of contention even if the fall occurs after all the tricks are complete. One panelist pointed out that the same goes with gymnastics: while a fall isn't as disastrous as in snowboarding or skiing, a gymnast will certainly be a long-shot for the podium. To even hope for a medal you need no other mistakes. In skating - men's in particular - you can still win with a fall, and that's a big difference even casual audiences can see.
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