ISU rules changes proposals & reaction

[just wondering]

The agenda for the June ISU Congress has been published. It's a 135-page list of proposals that I think the ISU will be voting on in June.

As Phil Hersh noted in his article about raising age limits, countries may still submit urgent proposals up to 3 weeks before the Congress.

Which country(ies) will be bold enough to use the 'urgent proposal' mechanism and propose this? Seems like the concept receives decent PR and support when discussed, but I wonder if any country is truly committed to the idea.

 

[jlai]

Outside of the obvious reason that Tinami touched upon, I do wonder if some in skating are cognizant about the appearance of a sport where young teenage women are dominating and end up unable to sustain that for a longer career and get "thrown away" for the next hot young teenage woman.

Yup. ANd the result was that Team Russia didn't have enough talented senior women to compete for the podium at worlds

 

[mag]

Which country(ies) will be bold enough to use the 'urgent proposal' mechanism and propose this? Seems like the concept receives decent PR and support when discussed, but I wonder if any country is truly committed to the idea.

While I am not opposed to the idea, I don’t see how it could be deemed and urgent issue. It is not as though kids haven’t been training triples at a young age for years. The only difference I can see is that now we have some young skaters with triple axels and quads. Well, if it is a real issue, the ISU could commission a proper study to be presented next year. Even if it is not the case, presenting this as an “urgent proposal” smacks of trying to keep the young Russians out of the senior ranks.

 

[Willin]

Since the article is listed in 2 topics, i have to repeat my reply.

oh, i see.... all those who can not get their girls to medal lately want the "age increase" because their girls now can't compete with Eteri's girls.... jealousy is a Deadly Sin....

Outside of the obvious reason that Tinami touched upon, I do wonder if some in skating are cognizant about the appearance of a sport where young teenage women are dominating and end up unable to sustain that for a longer career and get "thrown away" for the next hot young teenage woman.

It's not an anti-Russia thing, Russian coaches support it other than Eteri.

I don't think it's a jealousy thing either. I think it's coaches and federations hating having skaters who are competitive for a hot second and then almost immediately go away.
Especially in countries like the US, Western Europe, and Canada, sports are popular based on the longevity of the personalities regardless of country (although certainly having a long-lasting athlete from your country helps). If there's no long-lasting personality, there's less popularity. And having those young hot-shot skaters who burn out after a year or two regardless of nationality hurts that.
There's also the aesthetic aspect of the sport. Older fans and judges may like older skaters because they tend to have more artistry, whereas younger skaters tend to have almost none - this is mainly due to what the judging system these younger skaters were brought up in rewards, but it shouldn't be overlooked.

ETA: Thinking more about it, I think this may be related to the Russian Ladies - but not in a hating on them for winning sort of way. Because Russia doesn't have the PC athlete culture US skaters do, their skaters are fiery and entertaining, making their personalities interesting to follow or create a narrative around. Currently since most of their skaters are so short-lived in success the only narrative the US pushes is "look at how difficult the jumps are - and she'll be upstaged in a season or two." For NBC they probably want to have a long-lived Russian lady for the good 'ol US vs. Russia narrative using parallel careers and sustained success as that's an easier sell than the current narrative. You could also have the fiery personality (Russian lady) vs. ice princess (US Lady) narrative.

 

[jlai]

If the goal is to discourage 13-year-olds from practicing 3A's and quads, it's not going to happen. Skaters will still practice the jumps. Most coaches I've talked to feel that if a skater doesn't have their triples (at least through lutz) by age 15, they won't likely get them. They'll still be pushing their kids to get the triples and start the quads (just like Orser has pushed his 10-year-old...somewhat hypocritical of him to support this, IMO).

Osmond didn't get Sal and Loop until pretty late. She started competing with 3f/3t at what, 16?

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Yup. ANd the result was that Team Russia didn't have enough talented senior women to compete for the podium at worlds

Oh please, they had two to fill the Olympic podium. You are suggesting they have already thrown out.

 

[Tinami Amori]

It's not an anti-Russia thing, Russian coaches support it other than Eteri.

I did not say about this particular article that it is "anti-Russian thing". I said "coaches of the girls who can't beat Eteri".. and that includes Russian Mishin (and Samodurova) and Arutynyan (and his girls), etc..

But usually such sentiments started when "Russian girls" are now sweeping JGFs and JWs podiums and doing quads..

I clearly recall an opposite sentiment, when Mao, then 14 years old, won the GPF, but could not compete against Slutskaya because of age, and Slutskaya won (Worlds 2005). Everybody (non-Russians) were yelling "lower the age" to let Mao compete..

 

[jlai]

Oh please, they had two to fill the Olympic podium. You are suggesting they have already thrown out.

ANd with only one withdrawal, they were out of contention for medals at worlds. That means they don't have enough depth in senior ladies. Two stars, not enough depth.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

ANd with only one withdrawal, they were out of contention for medals at worlds. That means they don't have enough depth in senior ladies. Two stars, not enough depth.

The third one won silver at GPFs, I don’t think any country have that depth in any event.

 

[GREGORY]

The ice dance's ''Entertainment rule" discussed during the idtc annual meeting in Milan seems to have disappeared.


Fabian 2 points (rocker) - IDTC 0 point

 

[carriecmu0503]

Likely based on what happened with US pairs and Olympic entries for 2018:

3. Twenty-four (24) entries for Ladies and Men, sixteen (16) entries for Pairs and nineteen (19) entries for Ice Dance will be determined according to the classification outlined in paragraph 2 above. ISU Members who have earned the necessary points according to Rule 378, paragraph 2b) and c) will have the right for two (2) or three (3) entries if, in addition, they had two (2), respectively three (3) Competitors qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance in the World Senior Championships immediately preceding the OWG. . The remaining entries under this paragraph 3 will be attributed to the ISU Members with the best placed and qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance Skaters at the World Senior Championships immediately preceding the OWG. 4. The remaining open entries available will be filled by ISU Members in order of their placements at a Senior International Competition designated by the ISU as qualifying event and conducted in the autumn of the calendar year immediately preceding the Olympic Winter Games. The open entries are available only to: a) ISU Members which have not previously earned an entry, for only one entry per such ISU Member. b) ISU Members which have earned the necessary points for two (2) or three (3) entries but did not have two (2) respectively three (3) skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the World Senior Championships immediately preceding the OWG. Such ISU Members are entitled to enter one skater in the qualifying event who, however, cannot be a skater that had qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the World Senior Championships immediately preceding the OWG. Reason: To have the possibility to include more Members and to have the best skaters entered into the OWG.

 

[Debbie S]

First, if the age was raised to 18 it would be interesting to see if the pool of competitive seniors increased. IMHO there is no reason why skaters can’t get triples after 15 other than the fact that ones who don’t have them tend to be written off by their federation, coaches, and parents.

I'm sure there are plenty of skaters that get triples later and are successful, but the prevailing view among coaches is that skaters need to have triples by their early to mid teens if they want to make Nats/Worlds/Olys, so they will push skaters to work on the harder jumps regardless of age rules. Yes, it concerns me when I see Trusova landing quads at 13 and Orser's prodigy landing quads at age 10 - scary to think of the physical effects and injury potential. I don't remember seeing vids of Nathan doing quads at 10 but of course that doesn't mean he wasn't, and the fact that he needed major hip surgery at age 16 is very concerning. But I don't think increasing the age for Seniors is going to change that, you'll just have Nathan-like programs at the Junior level.

I might be in favor of increasing the min age to 16 (the age for gymnastics) but I think 18 is a bit too much - I'd worry that you'd have skaters in Juniors for quite a few years and then a logjam in Junior and the lower levels. And you might also have situations with pairs and dance teams where the female partner is too young for Senior but the male partner is too old for Junior, and then they are stuck, which doesn't help their development. If they do raise the min Senior age to 18, I would suggest raising the age limit for Junior male pairs and dance partners to 22.

 

[Vagabond]

Some of the skaters of the last two decades or so that won Olympic and/or World medals before the age of eighteen:

Ladies:

Da Kween
Lipinski
Sotnikova
Baiul
Hughes
Zagitova
Medvedeva
Meissner
Asada
Kim

Men:
Plushenko
Hanyu

Dance:
Maia Shibutani

(Edited to delete Nathan Chen's name. Thanks for spotting that, @VIETgrlTerifa.)

I may have left someone out, but I can't think of anyone from this list other than Baiul who might have been better served by having to skate in Juniors internationally until the age of eighteen. (Of course, we don't know what's going to happen with Zagitova, who is still only sixteen.) And what a loss it would have been for us if they had been made to wait.

YMMV.

 

[mag]

the fact that he needed major hip surgery at age 16 is very concerning

Nathan’s injury, while it happened while doing a quad, could just have easily happened on a double jump. My understanding is that avulsion fractures happen because of the differential between muscle strength and bone strength so they are, unfortunately, not that uncommon in teenage athletes. There may many reasons why young athlete should not be pounding away on quads, but Nathan’s injury is not a good example.

 

[overedge]

I would sooner see elements restricted by age or category (e.g. only X number of quads per program for senior men) rather than see ages restricted. If the problem that this is trying to solve is skaters being injured or being pushed to do dangerous things, that's a skating problem, not an age problem.

 

[libecha]

I would sooner see elements restricted by age or category (e.g. only X number of quads per program for senior men) rather than see ages restricted. If the problem that this is trying to solve is skaters being injured or being pushed to do dangerous things, that's a skating problem, not an age problem.

This is what makes the most sense to me. If there is medical or scientific evidence that doing quads causes long-term skeletal injuries in children, then ban the element under certain ages. We see this in other sports. FINA doesn't allow 10m platform diving for kids under 14 because it damages their growth plates. US Soccer has banned heading for kids under 12 and UEFA will likely follow suit. If there are specific safety concerns, then take a data-driven, surgical approach so you actually address the problem, rather than raising the age limit because it sounds good.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Some of the skaters of the last two decades or so that won Olympic and/or World medals before the age of eighteen:

Ladies:

Da Kween
Lipinski
Sotnikova
Baiul
Hughes
Zagitova
Medvedeva
Meissner
Asada
Kim

Men:
Plushenko
Hanyu
Chen

Dance:
Maia Shibutani

I may have left someone out, but I can't think of anyone from this list other than Baiul who might have been better served by having to skate in Juniors internationally until the age of eighteen. (Of course, we don't know what's going to happen with Zagitova, who is still only sixteen.) And what a loss it would have been for us if they had been made to wait.

YMMV.

Who were 18 or younger, or younger than (before) 18?

 

[antmanb]

We see this in other sports. FINA doesn't allow 10m platform diving for kids under 14 because it damages their growth plates.

That's interesting, but I'd also wonder, despite not being allowed to compete at 10m until they're 14, when do divers start training at the 10m?

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Apart from the injury argument bringing back the artistic levels of ladies skating is another reason for raising age limits. These girls make their rotations but pale artistically compared to a mature Kim, Cohen, Asada, etc. Since they're given the points and wins the look of ladies skating is on the decline. I think this is part of the declining interest in skating in the west.

 

[libecha]

That's interesting, but I'd also wonder, despite not being allowed to compete at 10m until they're 14, when do divers start training at the 10m?

Earlier, of course, but the decent, reputable coaches will limit the number of full practice dives per day. It’s the repeated impacts that are the problem. And you can’t take the reins off at 14 unless the diver has completed puberty. I remember watching a documentary on Tom Daley and they had him limited to some ridiculously low number a day, like 5, for awhile. Otherwise they’d train other aspects, or put him in a harness to catch him before he hit the water full force.

All of this, regardless of sport, requires thoughtful coaching, though. The ISU or FINA or FIG can put in all the age limits they want but ultimately it’s dependent on the coaches. And that means education and data and monitoring, not arbitrary lines.

 

[VGThuy]

Who were 18 or younger, or younger than (before) 18?

All of them were younger than 18 except Nathan Chen. However, Chen did medal at his first senior GPF and win his first senior 4CC at the age of 17.

 

[mag]

Apart from the injury argument bringing back the artistic levels of ladies skating is another reason for raising age limits. These girls make their rotations but pale artistically compared to a mature Kim, Cohen, Asada, etc. Since they're given the points and wins the look of ladies skating is on the decline. I think this is part of the declining interest in skating in the west.

This is not a reason for age limits. This is an argument for more judge education and monitoring. The problem with that is that having judges mark PCS correctly will also affect some older skaters whose skating skills and transition marks are artificially inflated because they are considered mature artists. Arbitrary age limits are really just a lazy way masking the real problems.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

This is not a reason for age limits. This is an argument for more judge education and monitoring. The problem with that is that having judges mark PCS correctly will also affect some older skaters whose skating skills and transition marks are artificially inflated because they are considered mature artists. Arbitrary age limits are really just a lazy way masking the real problems.

But as several have pointed out here judges have never been able to resist jumpers. Monitoring and educating the hundreds of international judges sounds like a multi-year project. IJS favored jumps, jumpers and their supporters. A higher age limit brings it back a little to the middle - healthy, well-rounded, artistic skaters. It's what the ticket-buying public wants to see. Not, another quad of juniors fading after 2 years.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Just an FYI: Lakernik gave an interview recently, posted on Sovsport.ru middle of April, where he stated that the age increase issue is not included in the agenda of the upcoming ISU congress. Another source stated that if such agenda is ever brought up (at any point) and decision is made in favor of increase, it would not affect the “current Olympic cycle”.

So… as of now, besides current Russian top sernior ladies, Trusova, Kostornaia, Scherbakova, with all their quads and 3A, are heading towards the 2022 Olympics…

Carry on…

 

[giselle23]

Some of the skaters of the last two decades or so that won Olympic and/or World medals before the age of eighteen:

Ladies:

Da Kween
Lipinski
Sotnikova
Baiul
Hughes
Zagitova
Medvedeva
Meissner
Asada
Kim

Men:
Plushenko
Hanyu

Dance:
Maia Shibutani

(Edited to delete Nathan Chen's name. Thanks for spotting that, @VIETgrlTerifa.)

I may have left someone out, but I can't think of anyone from this list other than Baiul who might have been better served by having to skate in Juniors internationally until the age of eighteen. (Of course, we don't know what's going to happen with Zagitova, who is still only sixteen.) And what a loss it would have been for us if they had been made to wait.

YMMV.

I think Lipinski would have had a longer career, potentially. I also think 18 is too long to make skaters wait to go senior.
The problem really isn't age; it's the second mark (PCS) which has a bunch of components that really don't add up to artistry. The younger skaters are getting high PCS by loading (larding?) up their programs with a lot of transitions just to get points. Transitions do not make for artistry unless they are a meaningful part of the choreography. I would get rid of transitions as a separate mark and make them a feature in composition/choreography. PCS needs to be retooled also to reward artistry explicitly. I remember Dick Button's comments on young skaters, Mao, I think it was, back in 2006--mark them correctly on artistry and let them skate with the seniors. This was an area that was served much better under the old system.

 

[MAXSwagg]

All of them were younger than 18 except Nathan Chen. However, Chen did medal at his first senior GPF and win his first senior 4CC at the age of 17.

Yes. I was asking for clarification about what the poster meant (18 and younger, or under 18).

 

[MAXSwagg]

I think Lipinski would have had a longer career, potentially. I also think 18 is too long to make skaters wait to go senior.
The problem really isn't age; it's the second mark (PCS) which has a bunch of components that really don't add up to artistry. The younger skaters are getting high PCS by loading (larding?) up their programs will a lot of transitions just to get points. Transitions do not make for artistry unless they are a meaningful part of the choreography. I would get rid of transitions as a separate mark and make them a feature in composition/choreography. PCS needs to find a better way to reward artistry explicitly. I remember Dick Button's comments on young skaters, Mao, I think it was, back in 2006--mark them correctly on artistry and let them skate with the seniors. This was an area that was served much better under the old system.

It just goes to show that judges don't really know what they're doing, or they don't care. Or both. Ladies with many transitions get high marks for mediocre programs (as you said, the transitions don't have anything to do with the music or program composition), while men get high transitions marks for nothing but crossovers and three turns (8s-9s when the mark should be in the 6s). Satoko and Carolina are really the only ones who I see have transitions that are actually substantive, and of the men, Patrick Chan, Hanyu, and Fernandez. Occasionally Uno though he has only a second-rate number of transition.

 

[mag]

But as several have pointed out here judges have never been able to resist jumpers. Monitoring and educating the hundreds of international judges sounds like a multi-year project. IJS favored jumps, jumpers and their supporters. A higher age limit brings it back a little to the middle - healthy, well-rounded, artistic skaters. It's what the ticket-buying public wants to see. Not, another quad of juniors fading after 2 years.

How do we know that what the ticket buying public wants? How do we know that will result in “healthy, well-rounded, artistic skaters?” I know many sing the virtues of Wagner and Kostner but many also find them boring. I enjoyed Kostner’s short program this year, but her long was IMHO a boring hot mess. I don’t find Wagner particularly artistic. She is a great showman, but I find her basic skating, underrotations, and two foots very distracting. I would happily trade those things for a fast, well skated with deep edges, transition loaded program with big jumps and the odd fall here and there. I am not suggesting what I like is what everyone or even the majority wants. I am, however challenging the notion that mature, artistic skaters will be more popular simply because they are mature and artistic. I also question the idea that young skaters cannot be artistic.

Finally, maybe retraining judges is a multi year process. So what? Are we looking to do something quickly or do something right?

 

[VGThuy]

I think I understand why they want to consider raising the age minimum, I personally am not in favor of it. I think 16 is a good compromise age and I think asking people to wait until they are 18 is needlessly arbitrary.

I do think it's interesting to observe when calls to raise the minimum are done though. First it was a reaction to all the teenaged contenders we were having by mostly Americans a few years after the dissolution of compulsory figures and the powers that be and the skating community were worried about the physical health of the skaters who were now concentrating on triples. Of course they at first eased it in with grandfather clauses and exceptions like medaling at Junior Worlds before they made it a strict rule. Now it seems to be a similar situation. What I don't get is how skaters can compete in senior GP series events but aren't age eligible for ISU championship events.

 

[mag]

What I don't get is how skaters can compete in senior GP series events but aren't age eligible for ISU championship events.

I thought that had already been changed so that the minimum age for both is now 15 as of the previous July 1? I agree that having different ages for the GP and for Championships seems strange.