ISU rules changes proposals & reaction

mag said:
I am confused by why figure skating should care about what “every four years” fans think. I watch the Super Bowl about every two years. I am sure the NFL doesn’t care what I think.

If falls should get zero because it is a failure, then << should get zero because the jump is a failure. A jump is defined by the number of rotations. If you can’t complete the rotations, you should get zero.
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First point, 100% agree.

Second: are you trying to be cute? Or do you actually believe it is this black and white? Landing a jump that is severely under-rotated is not as large of an error as a fall (whether or not the rotation was completed).

Falls on any element severely impact the performance, but are not judged as such. I'm sorry, but you should not be getting "great" or "superior" marks for the Performance component for a skate with even one fall. It should be 7.00 at most. 7.00 is still "good" according to the ISU. I was recently watching Chan and Hanyu's 2017 WTT short programs, and they both got roughly 45 PCS for those...by the judges' opinion, SUPERIOR performances (no wonder casual viewers think judging is a joke!). Realistically, it should be more like 38 for both. Major errors, clearly no commitment to the choreography, minimal interpretation...no performance, literally. Components should've been something like

Skating Skills 9.50
Transitions 9.25
Performance 5.50
Composition 7.25
Interpretation 7.00

IJS does a fantastic job at dissecting every little thing, but absolutely FAILS to evaluate the performance as a whole. And Judges arguably cannot do this when they have to give individual element GOEs. How can they just sit back and look at the entire program, how it is being interpreted, how it is constructed...is it cohesive? Are the footwork and body movements substantive and meaningful in the scope of the music? Is the skater interpreting throughout, showing expression, etc. or are they going in and out?
 
MAXSwagg said:
Second: are you trying to be cute? Or do you actually believe it is this black and white? Landing a jump that is severely under-rotated is not as large of an error as a fall (whether or not the rotation was completed).
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I am being cute. Are you a skater? Every skater I have spoken to, when pushed to be honest, admits that standing up on a 2.5 or slightly less jump is WAY easier than rotating a triple. In fact, standing up on a 2.5 is easier than standing up on a 2.75.

There is a reason very few skaters ever rotate, let alone land, a triple jump. We tend to focus on the elite of the elite. The vast majority of senior level skaters have a 2A (sort of) and a shakey triple or two. When you harshly punish falls more than you punish downgraded jumps what you end up with are skaters who have never, and will never, rotate a triple, winning senior events over skaters who can and do rotate triples but fall a couple of times. We don’t see these events but it is these skaters who are supporting and maintaining the skating system. Without them all the skate shops, boot manufacturers, coaches, and seamstresses would go out of business.
 
This morning on Facebook, Jeroen Prins of the Netherlands said that he's currently working on an urgent proposal to be submitted to the June ISU Congress about raising the age limit for seniors. Prins is an ISU judge and referee and a participant in the 2016 ISU Congress. (I am unsure of his official position with the Dutch federation.)

I don't know how to link to his comment on Facebook, but here is the text of it:

I am preparing the Urgent Proposal on this and we will probably send it as proposal for Senior age 17 effective 2020-2021 so no one needs to go back to Juniors the next 2 years.
I guess it’s better that NED as a federation would propose it than one of the larger ones in figure skating.
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clairecloutier said:
This morning on Facebook, Jeroen Prins of the Netherlands said that he's currently working on an urgent proposal to be submitted to the June ISU Congress about raising the age limit for seniors. Prins is an ISU judge and referee and a participant in the 2016 ISU Congress. (I am unsure of his official position with the Dutch federation.)

I don't know how to link to his comment on Facebook, but here is the text of it:
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and he is a candidate for the figure skating and pair skating technical committee
 
HSCluv said:
One change I would like to see is something to address the loooong footwork sequences. ...... I much prefer the quicker, even if they are less complicated, footwork sequences of the 90s.
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Even earlier there were these passages with lots of 1/2 turns, little leaps, delayed Axels, changes of direction, etc.. Those went away when 3's turned up. They were more intersting to watch than what you describe.
 
Thanks @drfj.

Didn't Dijkema originally suggest that he would only serve 2 years? I guess he must have changed his mind.

Glad there are multiple candidates for the figure skating technical committee, at least.

I wish someone was running against Lakernik for Vice President ....

----

ETA: Nancy Kerrigan, husband Jerry Solomon comment in support of age limit/rules changes: https://twitter.com/NancyAKerrigan/status/992062990223597571
 
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It's funny how many proposals the Netherlands have put in! They seem to have so many opinions.

It does seem like 17 is a good compromise. Some want 18 and some want 16. So 17's right in the middle there. I wonder though if this is passed whether or not skaters would be grandfathered in. That is, would Zagitova be allowed to compete next year? She'd be too young for Senior, but I wouldn't imagine she'd go back to Junior. (If that's even possible)
 
They say it will take effect for the 2020/2021 season so Zagitova will be fine if it passes.
 
I wonder if there are proposals from any federations to look into further enhancing judging accountability. I don't think 16 or 17 was the reason for the poor judging / scoring in past competitions.
 
Prins' claim that figure skating has the lowest age limit among winter sports is also incorrect.

Figure skating: 15 years old
Luge: 15 years old
Nordic combined: 15 years old
Short track speedskating: 15 years old
Skeleton: 14 years old
Ski jumping: 15 years old
Snowboard: 15 years old
Speedskating: 16 years old
Alpine skiing: 17 years old
Biathlon: 22 years old
Bobsleigh: 15 years old
Cross-country skiing: 15 years old
Curling: N/A
Freestyle skiing: 15 years old
Ice hockey: 18 years old
 
Tahuu said:
Prins' claim that figure skating has the lowest age limit among winter sports is also incorrect.

Figure skating: 15 years old
Luge: 15 years old
Nordic combined: 15 years old
Short track speedskating: 15 years old
Skeleton: 14 years old
Ski jumping: 15 years old
Snowboard: 15 years old
Speedskating: 16 years old
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I wouldn’t let some nasty facts get in the way! Given that speedskating is 16 years I could see the ISU wanting to harmonize the two sports. Not that that is a good reason for doing it, but again, the ISU doesn’t really seem all that hung up on having a good reason for doing things.
 
mag said:
I wouldn’t let some nasty facts get in the way! Given that speedskating is 16 years I could see the ISU wanting to harmonize the two sports. Not that that is a good reason for doing it, but again, the ISU doesn’t really seem all that hung up on having a good reason for doing things.
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What do you mean? Facts are nasty or inconvenient? Yeah, we need raise the age limit to protect skaters' health. Figure skating are much dangerous than these other winter sports.
 
Tahuu said:
What do you mean? Facts are nasty or inconvenient? Yeah, we need raise the age limit to protect skaters' health. Figure skating are much dangerous than these other winter sports.
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I was being sarcastic as in, why let the fact that figure skating doesn’t have the youngest age get in the way of saying it does. As for your other point, I am not sure I agree that figure skating is much more dangerous than the other winter sports listed. I am also not sure that raising the age limit will protect skaters’ health. That isn’t to say the age shouldn’t be raised.
 
^^ Nvm, I didn't get you earlier.

If a skater is superior technically and artistically, s/he can compete young and s/he will win. S/he will likely have a long career. Hello Mr Plushenko. Long career in a sport is not because of an artificially raised age limit.

A third augment - People want women's skating not little girls' skating. This line of reasoning is not data/evident-based either. If we have a phenom in the future who is excellent at both tech and artistry and she wins everything, people are going to jam the arena for her.
 
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Tahuu said:
If a skater is superior technically and artistically, s/he can compete young and s/he will win. S/he will likely have a long career. Hello Mr Plushenko.
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That may have been the case with Plushenko, but that doesn’t mean there is any correlation, let alone causation between being superior technically and artistically and having a long career. Off the top of my head I can think of two skaters neither of whom have ever been technically superior and their artistic superiority depends on who you ask. They would be Kostner and Wagner, both have had long careers mainly because they haven’t faced the kind of internal competition we see in Russian or Japan. Brendan Kerry has also had a long career, again, mainly because he doesn’t have any serious internal competition.

I don’t mean to be contrary, but it seems to me that many of the arguments put forward for raising, maintaining, or lowering the age limit are based solely on the personal preference of the person making the argument. Whether that preference is based on the like or dislike of a particular skater or a more general like or dislike of a particular style varies depending on who is making the argument. Some make sweeping statements claiming they are looking out for the health of skaters while others seem to intuitively know what the majority of skating fans want to see. None of them are backed up by any imperial data and so are worth exactly what we paid for them. That is, nothing.

Changing the age limit is a serious issue for athletes who have trained their entire life for a chance to go the Olympics. Those games happen once every four years. A change as substantial as the one being proposed will have real consequences for many athletes. Again, that doesn’t mean that a change shouldn’t be made. What it does mean is that any change should be based on data and facts, not the personal opinions of a bunch of ex skaters at the ISU council.
 
Willin said:
It's funny how many proposals the Netherlands have put in! They seem to have so many opinions.

It does seem like 17 is a good compromise. Some want 18 and some want 16. So 17's right in the middle there. I wonder though if this is passed whether or not skaters would be grandfathered in. That is, would Zagitova be allowed to compete next year? She'd be too young for Senior, but I wouldn't imagine she'd go back to Junior. (If that's even possible)
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In the tweet replies Prins says the proposals are down to him, but I wonder if it's anything to do with Jan Dijkema, the President of the ISU being Dutch, plus he's standing for a further 2 years. I wonder if some of these proposals are more 'stalking horse' ones, see how they go, and it's convenient for them to be submitted by the Dutch federation rather an ISU committee.

Re the ages I believe the proposal is for the age to be 17 from the 2020-21 season i.e. no effect on current Seniors. However they would need a grandfather clause for somebody like Alexandra Trusova. She would turn Senior next season only to have to go back to Juniors if there is no such clause. Also anyone that wasn't in Juniors last year and is only just starting out will not be eligible for the next Olympics. They will turn 15 in 2020 only for the age to suddenly be increased to 17, meaning they could only skate in Seniors from the 2022-23 season onwards, while someone like Alysa Liu could only turn Senior in the 2023-24 season.

IMO this is too much of a 'cliff edge' and it should only really be 16 followed by maybe 17 after the Olympics once far more evidence about the '3A/quad revolution in Juniors' is in.
 
Tahuu said:
Prins' claim that figure skating has the lowest age limit among winter sports is also incorrect.

Figure skating: 15 years old
Luge: 15 years old
Nordic combined: 15 years old
Short track speedskating: 15 years old
Skeleton: 14 years old
Ski jumping: 15 years old
Snowboard: 15 years old
Speedskating: 16 years old
Alpine skiing: 17 years old
Biathlon: 22 years old
Bobsleigh: 15 years old
Cross-country skiing: 15 years old
Curling: N/A
Freestyle skiing: 15 years old
Ice hockey: 18 years old
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Prins' claim may be incorrect, but for me that's not the main point, which is: Elite ladies world figure skating currently does seem to have a preponderance of very young phenoms who then fizzle out or disappear from the sport quickly. In these other sports, any young phenoms end up sticking around for many years, at least into their 20's and some through more than 2 Olympic quads. Moreover, the "stars" of many of these other winter sports are usually not the youngest phenoms (Chloe Kim notwithstanding) but are veterans in their 20's or even older. Raising the age for senior (ladies) would certainly shut the door on the youngest of the phenoms, but whether it will stop a 17- or 18-year old senior skater from quickly fizzling and moving on, is another assumption entirely.
 
clairecloutier said:
Here is a link to the full list of Urgent Proposals that have been added to the ISU Congress agenda: https://www.isu.org/docman-document...munications/17105-isu-communication-2160/file

In addition to the proposal to raise the senior age minimum, there's also a proposal to increase the number of pairs in the free skate at Worlds from 16 to 20 teams.
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That is a good idea. There are so many teams out there that are doing very well and should be given a chance to do their FS at worlds.
 
I can't believe they actually used the word "afraid" in the proposal. If they want our sport to become a laughing stock that's a great way to go about it.

The age limit is fine. Leave it where it is. No-one cared when it was Kwan and Lipinski winning.
 
And the age proposal comes again from the Netherlands which makes it really obvious suspicious that they are being used as the fed toy for Dijkema's hidden agenda.
 
misskarne said:
I can't believe they actually used the word "afraid" in the proposal. If they want our sport to become a laughing stock that's a great way to go about it.

The age limit is fine. Leave it where it is. No-one cared when it was Kwan and Lipinski winning.
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They actually helped inspire the age changes in the 1990s and there certainly were comments made by some of their older competitors about little girls winning titles and how they were more mature.
 
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