The title of “Ladies” in Artistic Skating

[DimaToe]

This has bothered me pretty much since I’ve been following this sport, and I thought “it is the off season so might as well bring this up” Should the followers of this sport push the ISU to refer to singles skating female competitors as women instead of ladies?

These are some of the definitions I came across for “lady”

“A woman who is refined, polite, and well-spoken”

“A woman of high social position or economic class”

“A well behaved young girl”

“A woman regarded as proper and virtuous and well mannered”

etc. etc.

Please share your thoughs whatever they may be, but it just seems odd that in 2018 we refer to women in our sport as ladies and by default hold them to a standard that the other disciplines in figure skating aren’t subject to.

 

[screech]

'Woman' generally refers to an adult female. Considering our current female Olympic champion is 15 years old, she does not fit the standard definition of a 'woman' in that sense.

I have no issue with 'ladies'.

 

[WillyElliot]

It doesn't bother me, but I see your point. It should be Ladies and Gentlemen or Men and Women if you want to be consistent.

The fact that teens are competing in Women's is fine. It shows how precocious they are with their skills. Like in tennis. You can compete Boys or Men, and it's an honor to be able to compete with the Men.

 

[RoseRed]

'Woman' generally refers to an adult female. Considering our current female Olympic champion is 15 years old, she does not fit the standard definition of a 'woman' in that sense.

I have no issue with 'ladies'.

Men refers to adult male, and yet we use that, including for skaters under 18.

Skate Canada uses women instead of ladies, which I prefer.

 

[screech]

Men refers to adult male, and yet we use that, including for skaters under 18.

Skate Canada uses women instead of ladies, which I prefer.

'Men' can also be considered a shortened form of 'gentlemen,' the male equivalent of 'ladies'.

 

[RoseRed]

'Men' can also be considered a shortened form of 'gentlemen,' the male equivalent of 'ladies'.

Sure, but in terms of age, gentleman is defined as "a chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man." or "a polite or formal way of referring to a man".

So the point that ladies is more appropriate for a 15 year old is still not a good reason.

 

[quartz]

Guys and Gals.

 

[Orm Irian]

I would definitely prefer to see the singles categories labelled 'Men's' and 'Women's' - and also to see the titles of World Champions changed accordingly. Currently the title of the male World Champion is just 'World Champion', while the title of the female World Champion is 'Lady World Champion', once again assuming the male as the default/whole and the female as the marked category/subset of the whole, which is particularly ridiculous given how much bigger the field of female skaters is than the field of male skaters (I'm aware that this terminology is a product of historical bias and accident, but still, times change, we change with them, and so should the ISU).

I'd also like to see juniors relabelled as 'Boys' and 'Girls' rather than 'Men' and 'Ladies', just as a reminder to everyone involved that the people in those competitions are very young and not fully developed either physically or mentally, and their competition should be seen as a developmental arena rather than an infant Hunger Games. But catch that happening while there's money to be won...

 

[Barbara Manatee]

'Ladies' bothers me, too. It isn't just that 'ladies' is not equivalent to 'men,' but also that in sports the term has traditionally implied that it is lesser than. I've often heard that in the early days of women's sports, 'ladies' was used to help reassure people that the delicate dears wouldn't be exerting themselves hard enough to bust a uterus or worse, develop any masculine tendencies. So not only is the term exclusionary in general, it's insulting athletically.

I'd especially like to see it go in skating because it reinforces the perception that the sport is old-fashioned, elitist, and out-of-touch.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

This is a scary issue, skating is one of the few place's that has not been ruined by femaleists trying to go against the core values. If they change any thing, maybe call it "Gals" - shorter, catchy, fun! As long as the dance and pair members represent opposites (like a ying yang!) I won't feel like I need to shoot out another T.V. screen with my hunting riffle.

 

[love skating]

It doesn't bother me but I read about it bothering others before. I noticed at the Olympics that some sports go with "women" (biathlon, hockey, bobsled, luge, skeleton) and some use "ladies" (skiing events, ski jumping, snowboard events, short and long track speed skating and of course figure skating). So there doesn't seem to be a general consensus in the sports as to which term to use.

 

[Vagabond]

I have no issue with 'ladies'.

One reason why I do.

 

[skateboy]

How do the titles translate in languages other than English? Do people have an issue with them?

 

[MAXSwagg]

People overreact about this. There are bigger issues than whether or not it’s “ladies” or “women’s.”

 

[RoseRed]

How do the titles translate in languages other than English? Do people have an issue with them?

French uses 'dames' and 'hommes', which is equivalent to ladies and men. In Spanish, they use "Masculino" and "Femenino" (at least on the Spanish language page for Worlds), which is equivalent to male and female. No idea how people feel about them.

 

[DimaToe]

People overreact about this. There are bigger issues than whether or not it’s “ladies” or “women’s.”

Which I will not argue with, but we have to start somewhere no?

 

[ximianKernel]

It doesn't bother me but I read about it bothering others before. I noticed at the Olympics that some sports go with "women" (biathlon, hockey, bobsled, luge, skeleton) and some use "ladies" (skiing events, ski jumping, snowboard events, short and long track speed skating and of course figure skating). So there doesn't seem to be a general consensus in the sports as to which term to use.

More like two organizations
the ISU who oversees short track, speedskating, figure skating
and
the FIS- that oversees skiing events, ski jumping, snowboarding

that has kept calling it "ladies"

the other winter sports organizations have opted with "women"

 

[kwanatic]

'Ladies' bothers me, too. It isn't just that 'ladies' is not equivalent to 'men,' but also that in sports the term has traditionally implied that it is lesser than. I've often heard that in the early days of women's sports, 'ladies' was used to help reassure people that the delicate dears wouldn't be exerting themselves hard enough to bust a uterus or worse, develop any masculine tendencies. So not only is the term exclusionary in general, it's insulting athletically.

I'd especially like to see it go in skating because it reinforces the perception that the sport is old-fashioned, elitist, and out-of-touch.

Okay, I almost busted a gut laughing at your "bust a uterus" comment

And I definitely agree with your last reason about the sport sounding very out of touch with the times. The reason I'd like to see it changed to "women's" is because of the last point you made. It's just a bit old-fashioned and outdated. I do feel like the word "lady" denotes someone who is delicate and fragile; these women are anything but that. They're strong, capable athletes and the word "lady" somewhat diminishes that IMO. Woman sounds much more powerful than lady to me.

When I'm referring to the juniors I'll say ladies because the large majority of them are pre-pubescent girls so I think it works there. But if I'm talking seniors, I'll usually say women instead of ladies.

I do think they should change it. When it comes to sports "lady" is an antiquated term.

 

[missing]

'Men' can also be considered a shortened form of 'gentlemen,' the male equivalent of 'ladies'.

Would the shortened form of ladies then be lays? Or of women be woo?

The women/ladies issue has been around long enough that I remember writing Kimmie Meissner was closer to being a woman than Tonya Harding was to being a lady.

 

[Bellanca]

Actually, it’s the one thing that hasn’t been entirely mucked up, yet… I vote to leave it be. It's tradition and no big deal...

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

People overreact about this. There are bigger issues than whether or not it’s “ladies” or “women’s.”

Amen! The "bigger" issue is that so many of the "men" in skating are getting near to the point where they are dressed as woman, not doing quads, ect. In the USA it's gotten where only Chan and Jo have a chance and Max Errin had to quit to do finance! In a morally right world Max would of still been skating and playing a broker on the ice with higher scores then "alternative life-stlye" Rippon!

 

[Mad for Skating]

I always found it a little odd that they used the phrase "ladies" when most sports used "women". I remember for my first year of hardcore following the sport, I called the discipline "women's". Eventually I found out that was not how they were referred to. I assumed it was because most of the competitors were teenagers and not technically "women".

Do I think it's offensive? No. The only reason why I would have it changed is because all the other sports say "women". It's not a huge issue for me, but I would support it being changed eventually.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Or as Karen Walker once said "Ladies, Gentlemen, Undecideds"

 

[love skating]

Found this interesting article from the Olympics which talks about it... Washington Post article

 

[kwanatic]

Actually, it’s the one thing that hasn’t been entirely mucked up, yet… I vote to leave it be. It's tradition and no big deal...

True, it's not really that big of a deal but citing tradition...eh...I don't particularly like that argument. Just because that's the way it has always been doesn't mean it's right or best way to do something.

 

[Bellanca]

True, it's not really that big of a deal but citing tradition...eh...I don't particularly like that argument. Just because that's the way it has always been doesn't mean it's right or best way to do something.

This debate has been ongoing for a long time now, and it's become a bit tedious and obnoxious at this point to PC and nitpick everything to death.

The term "lady" or ladies" only became disparaging because someone said so at one time, and now it is a mind-set.

The sport needs a lot of help in many ways, and I would say this issue is not of vital importance, at this time. JMHO.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

If they're Australian, do we call them Sheilas and Bruces?

 

[gkelly]

When I'm referring to the juniors I'll say ladies because the large majority of them are pre-pubescent girls so I think it works there.

I think the word you're looking for is "adolescent" -- or if you must use a term that focuses on sexual maturation, then "pubescent" rather than "pre-pubescent."

We're talking about 13- to 19-year-olds when we're talking about juniors. Even though skaters may tend to develop later than average, most of the competitors in that age range will have at least started the physical maturation process.

You could use "pre-pubescent" when discussing novices, who by ISU definitions need to be in the 10- to 15-year-old age range. More, but not necessarily most, of them would not yet have started any body changes yet.

Or how about "pre-growth spurt"?

 

[kwanatic]

I think the word you're looking for is "adolescent" -- or if you must use a term that focus on sexual maturation, then "pubescent" rather than "pre-pubescent."

We're talking about 13- to 19-year-olds when we're talking about juniors. Even though skaters may tend to develop later than average, most of the competitors in that age range will have at least started the physical maturation process.

You could use "pre-pubescent" when discussing novices, who by ISU definitions need to be in the 10- to 15-year-old age range. More, but not necessarily most, of them would not yet have started any body changes yet.

Or how about "pre-growth spurt"?

How about pre-women?

 

[UGG]

I kind of see what you mean. Just say “male” and “female” and call it a day.