Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[Anyasnake]

I’m well aware, I was in the UK for a while! Everyone still remembers. But we’ve suffered a fair bit since then 2006 was such a joke I’d all but given up on the discipline. It’s just nice to see it back in the spotlight.

Well the 2006 OD... was not the best event for Ice Dance. The highlight was Barbara Fusar-Poli's stare.
So what do I take with V/M ? For me, it's not necessarily about programs or revolutionnary music BUT there is something that I would be thankful for : more sobriety in the overall look. More elegant - maybe I'll add Dubreuil/Lauzon in it too actually, but they retired in 2007. I used to see these horrifying costume, over the top, I don't know if it was dated at that time, but for me they stood out in Umbrellas, and in Pink Floyd - it almost looked like practice clothes, yet it was just great overall (one of my favourite programs of theirs). So for me they did brought something in the "fashion" sense of it, post Vancouver (Tessa would be delighted to read this I think).
I think from 2010-2014 I was expecting more from Marina's teams even though they did great, in terms of modernity of programs. Everyone talks about how her teams were versatile and everything, truth is it was almost man-woman-romantic relationship only but with different music ; and to me that's why she struggled with giving programs to Shibs (until they took directions themselves), and also why Carmen stood out, it was crazier than just a vanilla program.
We often say : "This is the best teams, they have the best programs", but the input of the choreographer is more than half of it.
V/M came back and searched for a new direction. And I like seeing D/W in shows, they are even better performers. They could have gone that road competitively.

 

[Peepsquick]

Well, V/M made ice dance more popular to the general public, that's for sure. But doesn't it show exactly how much impact they made as true legends? I don't know how you can turn a very positive thing into such a negative tune here.

Not my purpose to be negative. I just think that the media machine behind the Canadian skaters + fandom (sometime of the dubious sort, going on about anything but their skating) have created a huge momentum for them. Just that.

 

[berthesghost]

"Those two teams turned ice dance from figure skating's red-headed step-child into a marquee event."

This is a very NA centric opinion. I lived in Europe in early 2000s and ice dance was what the ladies event was in US in the 90s. It was the sat night marquee event that sold the house out.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Not my purpose to be negative. I just think that the media machine behind the Canadian skaters + fandom (sometime of the dubious sort, going on about anything but their skating) have created a huge momentum for them. Just that.

This argument is rather dismissive of their ability and also makes little sense to me. Of course they’re promoted in Canada, they’re icons there. But how they were received by the rest of the world this time round was in no way manufactured. I think their huge momentum out of the Team Event this year came solely from their actual performances. It took everyone by surprise how much people took to them, probably V/M most of all. NBC, BBC, Eurosport etc weren’t exactly shilling for them or putting out endless fluff pieces, in fact they always went out of their way to make sure people knew they had serious competition in P/C, and Skate Canada, a few fangirls on Tumblr and that one bizarre blog really aren’t such joint powerhouses that they could somehow artificially generate that kind of worldwide response and interest from people who previously thought dance and pairs were the same thing. It was an entirely authentic reaction to their connection on ice, the wow factor of their programs, and the obvious quality of their skating.

 

[forthewin]

Not my purpose to be negative. I just think that the media machine behind the Canadian skaters + fandom (sometime of the dubious sort, going on about anything but their skating) have created a huge momentum for them. Just that.

You're really showing your bias. So it's wrong for V/M to have a huge momentum. How so? And I don't think the impact they made on the general public is because of "anything but skating". That's just utterly demeaning and untrue. They draw people in exactly because of their work and skating. Maybe some people then go a bit further to become fans of the skaters, but always begin with their skating.

 

[Anyasnake]

"Those two teams turned ice dance from figure skating's red-headed step-child into a marquee event."

This is a very NA centric opinion. I lived in Europe in early 2000s and ice dance was what the ladies event was in US in the 90s. It was the sat night marquee event that sold the house out.

The perks of being European : Ice Dance is as important as the other discipline... if not more ! It's cultural I guess. But yes the statement is very NA centric because Ice Dance is extremely popular in Europe.
North America has been a powerhouse in Ice Dance since Belbin/Agosto. I just don't get why they are not more interested. Virtue/Moir has brought that in Canada (it was already there, but much more now obviously), but in the US, how will it stand now ? They've had teams on the podium everytime, an OGM, yet it just Ladies, Ladies, Ladies. (And Nathan Chen ! )

 

[Golden1]

"Those two teams turned ice dance from figure skating's red-headed step-child into a marquee event."

This is a very NA centric opinion. I lived in Europe in early 2000s and ice dance was what the ladies event was in US in the 90s. It was the sat night marquee event that sold the house out.

I think that is a false generalization tbh. Europe is too diverse to make a definite statement like that. I also live in Europe and figure skating in general hasn't been popular in my country in decades. And my experience of growing up thinking ice dance was the discipline you make fun of also happened in Europe. So, IMO Europe is not NA where you can maybe say what's popular or not. Each European country is very different and has specific interests and experiences.

 

[berthesghost]

^well we obviously had different experiences but the original idea is also a “false generalization” by that same measure. D&W are USA’s first OGM in dance and helped make it more popular, but it’s still not the “marquee event”. D&W aren’t Peggy Fleming/ Dorothy Hamil famous with the general public.

 

[MsZem]

I get the sense that the enthusiasm of what is in reality a small niche of Tumblr and Twitter users is creating a sense that the impact of V/M's OGM is larger than it truly is. Certainly they have gained new fans (some of them focused mainly on whether they're a couple off the ice). But media audiences today are much more fragmented than in the past, so achieving broader appeal and impact is difficult. I'm going to guess that a greater share of viewers were exposed to Bolero in 1984 than to MR in 2018. They just weren't discussing it online afterwards.

 

[Peepsquick]

And I don't think the impact they made on the general public is because of "anything but skating"

Again, read my post, I never implied that. V/M are true champions and they earned their titles: I am NOT refuting that.
We speak of two different things here. If you followed the season, you must have realized that part of the hype was centered not on their skills but their "fictive" persona. It was everywhere.
I am really not interested in ruffling feathers, so I'll let myself out ...

 

[Deleted member 74551]

I get the sense that the enthusiasm of what is in reality a small niche of Tumblr and Twitter users is creating a sense that the impact of V/M's OGM is larger than it truly is. Certainly they have gained new fans (some of them focused mainly on whether they're a couple off the ice). But media audiences today are much more fragmented than in the past, so achieving broader appeal and impact is difficult. I'm going to guess that a greater share of viewers were exposed to Bolero in 1984 than to MR in 2018. They just weren't discussing it online afterwards.

Oh for sure. I can’t compare the UK to North America, but Bolero was a cultural moment there on par with something like Charles and Diana’s wedding, as mad as that sounds. Literally the entire country stopped still for it.

 

[Miloune]

I get the sense that the enthusiasm of what is in reality a small niche of Tumblr and Twitter users is creating a sense that the impact of V/M's OGM is larger than it truly is. Certainly they have gained new fans (some of them focused mainly on whether they're a couple off the ice). But media audiences today are much more fragmented than in the past, so achieving broader appeal and impact is difficult. I'm going to guess that a greater share of viewers were exposed to Bolero in 1984 than to MR in 2018. They just weren't discussing it online afterwards.

Yes when speaking about media impact we have to take into account that social media and the Internet didn't "really" exist until mid-2000. So yes, VM's impact is great and visible online, but that's a variable one couldn't measure for T/D's Bolero for example.
Edit : And yes people mostly obsess over whether they are a couple or not, but that's mostly because amateurs viewers don't know anything about skating. And in that sense VM have an audience friendly style : people connect with love stories.

 

[berthesghost]

It’s almost a fool’s errand to try and quantify GOAT though. More titles? Different years had different levels of competition. Creating an interest that wasn’t there before? Why penalize T/D or G/P for coming from countries with a rich history of ice dance with many many champs before them.

 

[VGThuy]

A lot of teams changed and helped evolve the sport. No doubt the British did when they helped form the standards and foundation of the sport, no doubt the Soviets did when they introduced more open holds (not nearly as open as it is now) and more dramatic styling, no doubt Torvill/Dean did as they literally pushed the rules of the sport and got all 6.0s and an incredible amount of actual media attention from the mainstream and have for decades.

Grishuk/Platov also helped usher in a change in the sport as they made speed, power, and sheer athleticism a new requirement for any team that wanted to go anywhere. As Dick Button once said I think at 1997 Worlds “the name of the game in ice dance now is speed, speed, and more speed.” And that was thanks to Grishuk/Platov and we still value speed over many other things in ice dance thanks to them.

I also don’t think people realize how much of ice dance COP and what are itemized elements have been influenced by past teams. So many things that are now elements were things that teams like Grishuk/Platov introduced to ice dance or if they didn’t introduce it then things they just did on repeat.

I also think teams that repeatedly lost to Russian teams also influenced the formation of COP because I remember reading about how during the Bourne/Kraatz v. G/P days people would argue that G/P didn’t utilize deep edges during the actual footwork. Even Renee Roca joked during a feature at 1993 nationals about Gorsha Sur adapting to the North American style and why Renee didn’t adapt to the more Russian style and Roca said something along the lines of “then we’d be skating on flats and using our arms to do all the emoting.” Whether you agree with her or not that quote was wildly informative in revealing to me what the attitude within the ice dance community was and what the debates that were going on were about. Now all we have are deep edges during footwork sequences. It was all thanks to what came before it.

Teams like V/M don’t exist in a vacuum and I some times think younger or newer fans of ice dance don’t appreciate the brilliant teams that came before their faves.

 

[skatefan]

Oh for sure. I can’t compare the UK to North America, but Bolero was a cultural moment there on par with something like Charles and Diana’s wedding, as mad as that sounds. Literally the entire country stopped still for it.

Yes, we did

 

[Judy]

It's nothing new. Already in 1984 ice dance was the most talked (not one of the most talked) figure skating discipline.

Here you go. Can V/M or P/C do four-footed skating? I think not.

Russian goats are clearly superior.

That’s hilarious!

 

[ximianKernel]

Here you go. Can V/M or P/C do four-footed skating? I think not.

Russian goats are clearly superior.

They even showing off their choreographic sliding move

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Let's see.

Torvil&Dean transformed the sport and inspired millions.

Virtue&Moir skated to Moulin Rouge and performed vulgar moves on ice.

-BB

 

[Deleted member 53443]

It will be a sad day in ice dance if P/C somehow become the greatest of all time.

These people that think that any ice dance team is anywhere close to V/M that isn't T/D are so delusional with their obvious hatred of V/M trying to downplay their accomplishments. The P/C and G/P fan hive's here is so obvious they all gather here for a reason while they are nowhere to be found elsewhere while V/M have legions of fans on actual popular sites like twitter/instagram/tumblr. #PCuniverse #DANSE!!1

Face it. V/M and T/D are now equal with the everyone else miles behind.

Oh the irony.

 

[gk_891]

I also think teams that repeatedly lost to Russian teams also influenced the formation of COP because I remember reading about how during the Bourne/Kraatz v. G/P days people would argue that G/P didn’t utilize deep edges during the actual footwork.

I find this interesting because I saw a lot of deep edges in not only their compulsories (which was still moderately rare for a Soviet/Russian ice dance team at that time) but also in several of their free dances like the ones from 1991, 1992, 1993 1997, and 1998. The ones where they didn't skate deep edges were the ones that were put together by Linichuk like in 1994 and 1996. I haven't seen their 1995 FD in a long time so I won't comment on that one.

 

[firstflight]

Oh the irony.

Don’t bother with the teenage trolls, lol.

 

[gk_891]

No, that's Shibutanis. They got the Worlds bronze in their first senior season.

Both the Shibs and also Krylova & Fedorov won the bronze medal at their World debut.

Would Usova & Zhulin count? Their world debut was in 1989 and they won the silver that year.

 

[Judy]

Well the 2006 OD... was not the best event for Ice Dance. The highlight was Barbara Fusar-Poli's stare.
So what do I take with V/M ? For me, it's not necessarily about programs or revolutionnary music BUT there is something that I would be thankful for : more sobriety in the overall look. More elegant - maybe I'll add Dubreuil/Lauzon in it too actually, but they retired in 2007. I used to see these horrifying costume, over the top, I don't know if it was dated at that time, but for me they stood out in Umbrellas, and in Pink Floyd - it almost looked like practice clothes, yet it was just great overall (one of my favourite programs of theirs). So for me they did brought something in the "fashion" sense of it, post Vancouver (Tessa would be delighted to read this I think).
I think from 2010-2014 I was expecting more from Marina's teams even though they did great, in terms of modernity of programs. Everyone talks about how her teams were versatile and everything, truth is it was almost man-woman-romantic relationship only but with different music ; and to me that's why she struggled with giving programs to Shibs (until they took directions themselves), and also why Carmen stood out, it was crazier than just a vanilla program.
We often say : "This is the best teams, they have the best programs", but the input of the choreographer is more than half of it.
V/M came back and searched for years instead of disagreeing who is the best ever.a new direction. And I like seeing D/W in shows, they are even better performers. They could have gone that road competitively.

Omg who can forget the stare it was priceless!

Yes I can agree with the costume simplicity. In some ways the costumes made ice dancing almost silly.

I think everyone should post links to their favourite couple/dance from the past!

 

[MsZem]

I think everyone should post links to their favourite couple/dance from the past!

Some of my favorite programs were by skaters who weren't necessarily among the best of all time, or even the best at the time.

I probably would have put V/M above D/W in 2014 because of their added pre-2010 achievements. I believe they’re still the highest senior Worlds debut?

Both the Shibs and also Krylova & Fedorov won the bronze medal at their World debut.

Would Usova & Zhulin count? Their world debut was in 1989 and they won the silver that year.

The correct answer, of course, is Westwood/Demmy

 

[Judy]

Some of my favorite programs were by skaters who weren't necessarily among the best of all time, or even the best at the time.



The correct answer, of course, is Westwood/Demmy

Post away! I agree with that too.

 

[gk_891]

I think everyone should post links to their favourite couple/dance from the past!

I think most of mine are listed here.

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/essential-ice-dance.101532/

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Some of my favorite programs were by skaters who weren't necessarily among the best of all time, or even the best at the time.



The correct answer, of course, is Westwood/Demmy

What an idiotic memory slip! I was even in the arena when the Shibs got their bronze in 2011 so heaven knows how I forgot that, what a delightful surprise that was

Not exactly relevant to this debate but I hope they’re not done.

 

[Judy]

I think most of mine are listed here.

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/essential-ice-dance.101532/

No! Posts to YouTube videos of your fav skaters/performances!

 

[MsZem]

That's a topic for a new thread, really. It has no relation to the question of whether V/M are great, the greatest, or not great at all.

 

[Judy]

My opinion. V&M are not GOATS. Pasha & Evgeny had the more dominant record and T&D were more influential. GOATS are between those two.

What was a downfall for them were the things she did off the ice. Sending her aunt to a press conference to ridicule Boune and Kraatz, her unreasonable dislike of Oksana Baiul (sorry if I spelt that wrong) and the affair. She was a nutcase.