U.S. Pairs 2018 - News & Updates, Part VIII

[Cleo1782]

If anyone thinks S/K aren't the best, most internationally competitive US Pair's team, you're wrong.

K/O are very good and would be neck-and-neck without the injuries. But the injuries have set them back as far as international reputation, and they had another injury preventing them from going to worlds. S/B are never going to catch up to S/K, but they're solid. They only finish as low as they do because everyone else is so good. C/L need a year or two more to get to S/K's level of international competitiveness.

Honestly I think the biggest reason people are frustrated with S/K is that they are the best the US has to offer and they're still not doing well standings-wise. Yes, they are inconsistent, but so are many other top pair's teams. I think their biggest issue by far isn't themselves but rather those they compete against. Right now it's a golden age of pairs. Ten teams - 10 - got over 200 points at Worlds, and that's missing two of the top pair's teams (D/R and S/H). Even four years ago only the top 4 got over 200; in 2013 only three teams did. The 10th place score this year (202.02) would've won worlds six years ago.
Think of it this way - without the mistakes in the short (and ending 3 seconds early, which likely took off some PCS points) - they likely would've been one of the 6 teams separated by ~2 points after the SP! Even with those mistakes, they were still only 3 points out of 5th - less than the BV of all but one element in a pair's FS. So they're definitely competitive for the Top 10 if they are clean.

I absolutely think S/K deserved to win Nationals and their Olympic spot. I think before this competition they were the best the US had to offer. This wasn't just another of their normal inconsistent performances. This was a meltdown. Falling on a death spiral? Shaky on nearly all elements including the 3tw. The US hasn't gotten worse in pairs, per se, every other country has gotten a lot better. Sure S/K are competitive for the top 10, but when's the last time they have been clean or even near clean? 2016 4cc's? I think it's time the US stops holding up S/K and puts at least some minimal backing into other teams. Don't you think if S/B had half the backing S/K did by the USFS they would have made the free?

 

[VGThuy]

I don't think so because the USFS doesn't have that much capital or care in pairs.

 

[casken]

Their clap backs to phil hersh calling their skating trash are funny. I love when skaters call journalists and judges out on their bullsh!t.

https://twitter.com/alexa_knierim/status/976966020610084865
https://twitter.com/ChrisKnierim/status/976960503271645184

People can still keep sh*t talking the state of Russian ice dance though right? That's still cool?

 

[my little pony]

do professional sportsball players fight with journalists or whatever like this? i hate sports so i dont know.

 

[VGThuy]

Yes. Fans do too and it's much worse than what we say about and to Hersh, et al.

 

[Willin]

@my little pony Depends. Javale McGee had a feud with Shaq because Shaq made fun of him for years on end (and deservedly so - Javale sucked until he joined the Warriors). But - Shaq is a hall of fame NBA player, so he has the cred, experience, and feel for the game to make fun of players. Phil Hersh doesn't. Shaq also took his fair share of insults in his day from sportswriters. The worst insults come from local sportswriters or bloggers that the players tend to ignore. There are some players that do engage, but few do and when they do it's usually because the player wants to pick a fight for whatever reason, not to defend themself.

As @VIETgrlTerifa said, most of the worst vitriol towards both players and journalists come from fans and other trolls. Most players and journalists don't engage with obvious trolls, but may reply to fans if they think the fan will pay attention. Again, it's a personality thing on the part of the athlete or journalist: some love haters, some hate and block them. Skaters don't get a whole lot of trolls or crazy fans, and few choose to engage. If they do engage, it only makes the hate worse.

 

[Ohyes]

People can still keep sh*t talking the state of Russian ice dance though right? That's still cool?

I have yet to see a well known Russian figure skating journalist call their own countrymen's skating trash on a social media platform for the world to see and no of course not.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

They performed unusually poorly. They easily could have made the top 10 with even a decent performance. This was a disaster. I am sure they tried their best, but it was really bad.

I agree. And not to be harsh on them but were just talking sport here.

I feel they are getting worse and worse.

When they came back last year for the first time (after all the surgeries) at 4 CC they were better then.. as time has gone on and they are practicing more their competitions are getting worse.

Their last 4 performances have been unusually poor. And then their US Nats free skate was poor too. They had a decent Team Oly SP and thats about it.

They are married to Delilah so they aren't going anywhere.

Not sure what they learned from Nina Mozer last year but I saw no improvement really.

I had / have HIGH hopes for them...

Their SP 2 days ago they had a strange error in a lift, she was tight on her throw and then their free was errors all over. They even watered down a 4 twist and watered down their SBS jumps.... They are losing their elite status for me.

 

[mtnskater]

Just watched pairs free skate. So sad for the Knieirms!! Chris actually was pretty on....even landed all of his jumps. A rarity! It was Alexa who was strangely shaky to the point she just could not perform. I’m guessing she was thinking too much about keeping their placement and not being responsible for going down to only one pair. Then that is exactly what happened. I’m sad because I do think we have good pairs that can really develop and improve. Maybe the extreme competition for one spot will force pairs to up their game??? USFS better pay attention to pairs development if they want to continue to earn team medals at the Olympics!

 

[her grace]

Don't you think if S/B had half the backing S/K did by the USFS they would have made the free?

Um, no. S/B's base value was lower than all the teams that qualified (and lower than non-qualifiers from Israel, France, Croatia, and Japan). The USFS isn't going to be able to politick them beyond their technical ability. S/B needed to absolutely nail it to make the LP. They didn't.

And Stellato/Bartholomay did get support from USFS this season. They were sent to Finlandia and the U.S. Intl Classic, and they were chosen for the host spot at Skate America. They got to compete at 4CC and Worlds after their excellent nationals result. The federation is supporting them just fine.

 

[Cleo1782]

Um, no. S/B's base value was lower than all the teams that qualified (and lower than non-qualifiers from Israel, France, Croatia, and Japan). The USFS isn't going to be able to politick them beyond their technical ability. S/B needed to absolutely nail it to make the LP. They didn't.

And Stellato/Bartholomay did get support from USFS this season. They were sent to Finlandia and the U.S. Intl Classic, and they were chosen for the host spot at Skate America. They got to compete at 4CC and Worlds after their excellent nationals result. The federation is supporting them just fine.

USFS certainly has an ability to politic teams above their technical ability- example 1 Alexa and Chris. Who until this competition haven't been successful with two sbs jumps in 2 years. I think a very good example of a fed pushing a team successfully is Germany. H/B are clearly being groomed as Germany 1 next year and being pushed by the fed properly. Agree to disagree, but I think if the US fed drops the ball in general in pairs and were just hoping Alexa and Chris would skate well. S/B deserve higher component marks I think.

 

[el henry]

do professional sportsball players fight with journalists or whatever like this? i hate sports so i dont know.

I wouldn't exactly call what Alexa and Chris were doing with Phil "fighting". I think it was more finally being fed up and calling out Phil on his crap. And with each tweet, Phil is giving up more claim to being a "journalist". It's a shame, at one point he was good, on some points I still agree with him, but he is descending to Dave Lease levels with these comments.

And since I do follow "Sportsball" players, and one team in particular with more than passing interest, this kind of calling out does happen after the season. The most recent example is Eagles Center Jason Kelce calling out every hater, including one by name, at the Super Bowl Parade.

Jason Kelce's (Uncensored, but IMO, one of the few times profanity is spot on) Epic Rant

I would loooove to see a few like this in skating

 

[clairecloutier]

@Cleo1782 I don't really see that the German fed is "pushing" Hocke/Blommaert. They're doing it themselves by skating fairly well and getting scores that reflect that.

Are you suggesting that S/B should have come ahead of H/B in the Worlds SP? They weren't that close. H/B had almost a 2-point lead technically over S/B (deserved). As to S/B's PCS, I think it's arguable. S/B had a pretty significant PCS lead over most other teams who didn't make the free skate. So they're already getting fairly good PCS, comparatively. If they'd skated in a later group, some 6.75s might've turned into 7s. But it wouldn't have been a big difference. To me, their PCS is basically appropriate to their level of skating, it's not going to go much higher until they start delivering more technically.

In regard to Alexa/Chris being "politicked above their technical ability", I think this is questionable. Until this last competition or two, they had a technical advantage over most U.S. teams due to their twist and throws, which were much bigger/better than anyone else's. Yeah their SBSs haven't been very good, but neither were anybody else's. (I'm not really including Tarah/Danny, because they haven't been competing at full strength for almost 2 years now, except for a month or two around this year's Natls and 4CCs.) Yeah I'm sure USFSA has done some politicking for Alexa/Chris, but they basically received their scores because they've often delivered big-ticket elements at a high quality level. As we saw in the Oly individual event and Worlds, when Alexa/Chris don't deliver those elements, they don't score well, and no amount of politicking can help.

 

[libecha]

do professional sportsball players fight with journalists or whatever like this? i hate sports so i dont know.

Yes, absolutely. This is pretty minor in comparison. The Sun and The Mirror wrote insulting headlines about Bastian Schweinsteiger after a match a few years ago, a pun on his name in English that was very rude in German, and Bayern Munich responded by banning all their journalists from the stadium. Social media enables it to be more direct but this is as old as the hills.

 

[Cleo1782]

@Cleo1782 I don't really see that the German fed is "pushing" Hocke/Blommaert. They're doing it themselves by skating fairly well and getting scores that reflect that.

Are you suggesting that S/B should have come ahead of H/B in the Worlds SP? They weren't that close. H/B had almost a 2-point lead technically over S/B (deserved). As to S/B's PCS, I think it's arguable. S/B had a pretty significant PCS lead over most other teams who didn't make the free skate. So they're already getting fairly good PCS, comparatively. If they'd skated in a later group, some 6.75s might've turned into 7s. But it wouldn't have been a big difference. To me, their PCS is basically appropriate to their level of skating, it's not going to go much higher until they start delivering more technically.

In regard to Alexa/Chris being "politicked above their technical ability", I think this is questionable. Until this last competition or two, they had a technical advantage over most U.S. teams due to their twist and throws, which were much bigger/better than anyone else's. Yeah their SBSs haven't been very good, but neither were anybody else's. (I'm not really including Tarah/Danny, because they haven't been competing at full strength for almost 2 years now, except for a month or two around this year's Natls and 4CCs.) Yeah I'm sure USFSA has done some politicking for Alexa/Chris, but they basically received their scores because they've often delivered big-ticket elements at a high quality level. As we saw in the Oly individual event and Worlds, when Alexa/Chris don't deliver those elements, they don't score well, and no amount of politicking can help.

I was referring more so to the Germans questionably making it into the free skate at the Olympics. I think S/B could have been put ahead of the Germans and Australians honestly, but it wasn't a slam dunk for S/B so that's how the placement panned out. It's clear the Germans have some fed backing. Regardless, what is done is done. We can discuss PCS, BV, and scoring potential all day. The US has focused on Chris and Alexa far too long, but no one has really stepped up, so it is what it is.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

As usual, Mr Hersh has reinforced his place in the sport is nothing but self - serving vitrole designed to drive hit rates, and feed his own ego.

I've posted it before, but this Edward Gorey tale sums up my thoughts, about where he fits in the scheme of things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoRN_cMxWXs

 

[Bonita]

Curious, has "Philly Poo" ever skated? Can he even do a waltz jump?

What a nasty piece of work kicking a team who is already down and kicking themselves.

If a 15-year-old Olympic champion jumping bean is exhausted and underperformed, I think that says a lot in general about why many floundered here.

 

[Sylvia]

I haven't had a chance to listen yet, but episode 67 of the "Ice Talk" podcast, features Tarah Kayne/Danny O'Shea, starting at the 30-minute mark (before they withdrew from Worlds ): http://web.icenetwork.com/fans/icetalk

... pairs skaters Tarah Kayne and Danny O'Shea talk about the thrill of winning their U.S. title in 2016, how they managed to get through their difficult 2016-17 season and Tarah's slow road to recovery from knee surgery.

 

[chachacha]

An adult skater friend of mine who skates at the Florida Ice Center in Wesley Chapel and told me that Haven Denney and Brandon Frazier were skating there a few weeks ago for a few days and then did not see them and they were back again this week training with Silvia Fontana and Jeremy Barrett

 

[Spiralgraph]

An adult skater friend of mine who skates at the Florida Ice Center in Wesley Chapel and told me that Haven Denney and Brandon Frazier were skating there a few weeks ago for a few days and then did not see them and they were back again this week training with Silvia Fontana and Jeremy Barrett

Oooh interesting. Are they switching coaches once more? My hope is that Haven can land her jumps more consistently like her sister could.

 

[chachacha]

Oooh interesting. Are they switching coaches once more? My hope is that Haven can land her jumps more consistently like her sister could.

I don't know but I thought it was interesting that they have been seen there. I didn't even think they would be continuing since Haven has really struggled on getting those side by side jumps back. But I guess time will tell what they are doing in the Zimmerman camp as I haven't seen anything about any coaching changes for this team.

 

[Firedancer]

An adult skater friend of mine who skates at the Florida Ice Center in Wesley Chapel and told me that Haven Denney and Brandon Frazier were skating there a few weeks ago for a few days and then did not see them and they were back again this week training with Silvia Fontana and Jeremy Barrett

Interesting! John and his team have been so successful with J/C. I would love to see one (or more) of the US teams work with them.

 

[nimi]

An adult skater friend of mine who skates at the Florida Ice Center in Wesley Chapel and told me that Haven Denney and Brandon Frazier were skating there a few weeks ago for a few days and then did not see them and they were back again this week training with Silvia Fontana and Jeremy Barrett

Ooooh!

Was it circa 2015 when they left Zimmerman & co for Ingo Steuer? I've been hoping they'd go back, so fingers crossed!

 

[kwanfan1818]

US Pairs in the Top 24 SB after Worlds:

• 15-Kayne/O'Shea
• 18-Scimeca/Knierim/Knierim
• 20-Cain/Leduc

Next in line are Liu/Johnson (25), Stellato/Bartholomay (27), Castelli/Tran (28), Denney/Frazier (30).

 

[clairecloutier]

I think this may be the 2nd year in a row that Liu/Johnson have been 25th on the SB list, just slipping out of the top 24 after the final event of the season. Frustrating!

 

[JJS5056]

I don't think that many are arguing that SK/K should have been left home; for the most part, the complaints have seemed to focus more so on the scores they have received in their comeback as well as the politiks associated with having a dominant pair within a lower-tiered federation. When looking at how close these Worlds were, a few points of PCS could be the difference between 3rd and 8th. But, it could also be the difference between 16th and 17th in the SP. Because they have shown to be capable of challenging the top tier, AND no other U.S. pair has claimed a strong hold onto 2nd or had a consistent international presence, was there really any option (outside of politics, even just in terms of expectations)?

Maybe with the U.S. down to 1 spot, USFSA might approach this discipline in a more holistic way that is unique from the way things are done in Singles. There is so much more that goes into a successful pairing - working with two skaters with different ages, different goals, different styles, different locations, and heck, even different nationalities. If you find the magic combination where this pair is able to progress upward from Novice through Intl. Junior events and onto Sr. Championships, you still have factors like coaching dynamics, height changes, and international depth. This is why the "grab the highest-ranking lady likely to never make it to 4CC" mindset does more harm than good. Rather than building strong pair skaters from the start, these teams are always playing catch up as the transfer learns pair moves and inevitably never brings the harder triples with them resulting in a breakup within 2-3 seasons. Meanwhile, the message has been sent that the 12th-place U.S. lady is more valued by USFSA than any female pair skater.

I have said it before, but some sort of national coordinator is needed to oversee the chess pieces and assemble the right coaches and athletes more frequently during the season to 1. define and identify talent early on, 2. provide a support system to help pair and maintain talent, 3. review progress and programs against international standards, 4. spread expertise because NO pair can afford to be deficient in jumping, in twists and throws, or in PCS, 5. assign opportunities that develops teams with potential but also lifts those on the cusp of being a competitive team at Worlds.

While the cut-off is certainly a major issue @aftershocks , you are placing far too much blame onto the ISU. Cuts had to be made as feds were simply no longer able to financially justify hosting the big competitions. It's a result of lack of sponsors, private support, popularity within this discipline especially, and lack of depth until recently. It is clear, though, that there IS depth and that more than 16 pairs deserve to skate a LP. Would something be able to work where a 5th group is added, groups 3-4-5 lumped into 1 LP draw, and short 2-team warmups replace a larger/longer 4-team one? It seems that the 4-team warmup group is what screws with the numbers, since a 5th group would necessitate an additional cleaning, etc. A solution for that, as well as a proposal for cost-cuts to make up for the 4 additional pairs, is needed.

 

[clairecloutier]

Some interesting thoughts in this post.

This is why the "grab the highest-ranking lady likely to never make it to 4CC" mindset does more harm than good. Rather than building strong pair skaters from the start, these teams are always playing catch up as the transfer learns pair moves and inevitably never brings the harder triples with them resulting in a breakup within 2-3 seasons.

I agree it's important for USFSA and the skating community to value pairs skaters as much as singles skaters, and to value the kids who are participating in pairs from a young age, and growing up in the discipline. However, the simple fact is that some of our most successful pairs in recent years have had partners (especially female partners) who switched into pairs at quite a late age. Scimeca, Kayne, Stellato, are all in this group. There are also current examples of this trend internationally, like Annika Hocke and Paige Conners. Also, the new junior team Feng/Nyman, who placed 8th at Junior Worlds in their first year together, are both newly out of singles. So it's not like singles can't transfer into pairs and succeed (especially females). Although I agree we should be supporting the kids who are competing in pairs in the younger ranks.

I have said it before, but some sort of national coordinator is needed to oversee the chess pieces and assemble the right coaches and athletes more frequently during the season

Currently, Mitch Moyer seems to mostly play this role for USFSA. However, he's also responsible for other disciplines. A coordinator specifically for pairs is not a bad idea--if budget dollars can be found.

to 1. define and identify talent early on;

Not sure entirely what you have in mind here, and I don't have a lot of details on the process for how this is currently handled. My impression is that much of this happens informally, at the local level--i.e., when kids are interested in pairs, they let local pairs coaches know, who may help them find local partners. When it's older skaters who are interested, they may travel for tryouts. For example, potential pairs skaters often visit Colorado Springs during the early offseason for informal, or more formal, tryouts with potential partners there.

2. provide a support system to help pair and maintain talent,

Some support system definitely exists at the senior level. From what we have heard in interviews, our senior pairs are in communication with Moyer and/or other fed officials at the planning stages of the season to discuss known issues, etc. From what I have heard, there is also some involvement from the federation at the junior level as well, but I'm not sure the extent of it. This existing support system could possibly be formalized further.

3. review progress and programs against international standards,

This is one of the main purposes of Champs Camp and the program reviews there; but of course, Champs Camp is only for the teams going to GPs.

4. spread expertise because NO pair can afford to be deficient in jumping, in twists and throws, or in PCS,

In recent years, USFSA has run weeklong, or weekendlong, pairs seminars during the offseason w/top foreign experts like Mozer, Moskvina, and Szolkowy. These seminars are, I believe, open to all senior pairs. While not long enough to pass on all necessary info, this is a step in the right direction. More could be done, certainly, but of course it depends on budget.

5. assign opportunities that develops teams with potential but also lifts those on the cusp of being a competitive team at Worlds.

Most of our senior teams who are at all competitive internationally get assigned to CS events and/or senior Bs during the early season. Also, pairs are sometimes assigned to spring international competitions. The U.S. federation generally provides more CS and Senior B assignments than the Canadian federation, but less than the Russian federation. I think we are doing fairly well in terms of international assignments. In my ideal world, our senior pairs would be doing 2 CSs + 2 GPs each, or, if they do not have GPs, 3 CSs. But we're not that far from that. We could do better with our JGP assignments; last year, I believe one or two of those went unfilled, which is a shame.

There is no doubt that our U.S. pairs program needs some serious help and improvement right now. But I think USFSA has the basics covered, in the sense that they provide international assignments, they offer some level of pairs education, monitoring, and feedback, and they provide some level of financial support for the top teams. Let's just say, we can acknowledge that there is a level of professionalism in how the program is being run. USFSA is not ignoring pairs.

I feel some of our problems in pairs go to deeper issues that are hard to solve with a surface, or basic, level of administration. More money would help. USFSA's budget is limited, yet I've argued before that it may be necessary to divert more of it proportionately to pairs, if we hope to succeed.

Another thing that would be helpful is simply some better luck. U.S. pairs have had a serious run of bad luck in recent years, in terms of injury and illness, that have really stalled our progress. Our teams have been left in the position of mainly trying to recover and maintain--while the rest of the world is moving forward.

 

[her grace]

I think this may be the 2nd year in a row that Liu/Johnson have been 25th on the SB list, just slipping out of the top 24 after the final event of the season. Frustrating!

Liu/Johnson were #46 on the SB list last season. Maybe you're mixing them up with Cain/LeDuc who were #25 last season? ETA: Were they #25 on the WS list?

I do feel for them, but USFS can choose them as a host pick. The teams finishing #23-24 this season are from GER and AUT, countries which don't have that luxury.

 

[Spiralgraph]

To add to what Clairecloutier wrote, Jenni Meno, Kyoko Ina, and Rena Inoue were also single skaters who switched to pairs. Now that I think of it, the US has had many female pair skaters who made that transfer. It's obvious our pairs program is in dire need of help and I hope all the coaches put aside their petty jealousies and rivalries and work together more often to improve our pairs. What the USA is doing or not doing now just is in no way in heck enough.

 

[clairecloutier]

Liu/Johnson were #46 on the SB list last season. Maybe you're mixing them up with Cain/LeDuc who were #25 last season? ETA: Were they #25 on the WS list?

Yes, it may have been #25 on the WS list. No way to check, though.