U.S. Pairs 2018 - News & Updates, Part VIII

[eurodance2001]

So now that the season for pairs is over, I hope USFS starts this cycle fresh and the one pair that goes to Worlds in 2019 is the one pair that has the best Nationals AND Four Continents finish. That way two separate sets of panels judge them and whomever finishes higher gets the spot. There's no room to play favorites now..

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah, I want a clean slate for all the pairs even those that may have underperformed this season.

 

[Spiralgraph]

I agree with the previous two messages. An even playing field for everyone. No pair is presumed to be the favored one going into the upcoming season.
US pairs have a lot of work to do to progress even to make the top ten at worlds.

 

[Sylvia]

ETA: wrong thread, sorry...

I see eurodance2001 quoted me too quickly below, haha (I thought I was in the 2018 Worlds Pairs FS play-by-play thread in the Kiss & Cry section and meant to post those scores there).

I'm sad that Alexa & Chris weren't able to duplicate their gritty free skate at 2017 Worlds (scored 130/11th in FS, 202 total/10th overall in Helsinki). It's been a long, stressful season and I'm not going to make excuses for them. I just hope that U.S. Figure Skating continues to support/encourage the many hard-working teams in the pairs program and that all the teams will rise to the challenge of earning the opportunity to compete at Worlds next season.

 

[eurodance2001]

With 4 teams left, look how close the top 6 are!
1 Nicole DELLA MONICA / Matteo GUARISE ITA 206.06 5 2
2 Kirsten MOORE-TOWERS / Michael MARINARO CAN 204.33 10 1
3 Xiaoyu YU / Hao ZHANG CHN 203.36 9 3
4 Kristina ASTAKHOVA / Alexei ROGONOV RUS 202.16 7 5
5 Cheng PENG / Yang JIN CHN 202.07 6 6
6 Valentina MARCHEI / Ondrej HOTAREK ITA 202.02 8 4

FS:
1 Kirsten MOORE-TOWERS / Michael MARINARO CAN 133.84 67.73 66.11 8.21 8.14 8.29 8.32 8.36 0.00 #8
2 Nicole DELLA MONICA / Matteo GUARISE ITA 133.53 65.74 68.79 8.57 8.46 8.61 8.71 8.64 1.00 #12
3 Xiaoyu YU / Hao ZHANG CHN 132.05 66.38 65.67 8.36 8.04 8.21 8.32 8.11 0.00 #7
4 Valentina MARCHEI / Ondrej HOTAREK ITA 130.65 63.58 68.07 8.43 8.29 8.43 8.71 8.68 1.00 #10
5 Kristina ASTAKHOVA / Alexei ROGONOV RUS 130.54 66.11 66.43 8.36 8.11 8.18 8.50 8.36 2.00 #9
6 Cheng PENG / Yang JIN CHN 130.09 62.46 67.63 8.50 8.36 8.36 8.61 8.43 0.00 #11
7 Anna DUSKOVA / Martin BIDAR

Crazy how close it is and some great skating..

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I have question regarding S-K & K.

Im confused why they showed up in mismatched costumes.

Their signature element 4 twist was mostly absent all year. Even the 3twist isn't scoring what it did.

I wonder why she seemed so wobbly today.

Oh well, onward and upward!

 

[IloveFS]

https://twitter.com/alexa_knierim/status/976897831633080320

Sigh.. there's no need for apologies if she gave her best under whatever circumstances are going on..

She has to be one of the most genuine skaters out there!!! I am sure that she did her best!

 

[Cleo1782]

https://twitter.com/alexa_knierim/status/976897831633080320

Sigh.. there's no need for apologies if she gave her best under whatever circumstances are going on..

Agreed. There is no need for apologies. I am sure she didn't set out to skate bad. It's unfortunate Deanna and Nate didn't make the free after a very respectable short program with such short notice as alternates too. I mean, unfortunately for Alexa and Chris if they continue they made it harder for themselves as much as anyone else. It's now going to be whoever skates the best and there is no favorite next year.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I hope USFS sends ALOT of pairs on ALOT of assignments this season. We need give them all a chance to compete and get a feel for their programs and see how they do in front of different international judging panels. We need to give all of them the best chance we can for them all to be able to thrive.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Don't pick on Kneirims.... they had a tough year.

Question: Yolanda Chen and Tikhonov, while commentating on Match-Arena video-cast, said that Kneirims had some kind of collision (during practice?) and his or hers (?) eyebrow was injured? any info on that?

 

[Sylvia]

Question: Yolanda Chen and Tikhonov, while commentating on Match-Arena video-cast, said that Kneirims had some kind of collision (during practice?) and his or hers (?) eyebrow was injured? any info on that?

It was on the exit of their SP lift yesterday. I posted Chris' quote to the ISU on the previous page:

(On the mistake at the end of the Group 3 lift) It was a case of elbow to the face at the end of the lift. I have a hard head but Alexa has a hard elbow. But neither of us is hurt and it's just weird because we never mess up that lift but that's how it goes.

ETA the quotes transcribed by the ISU right after their free skate today:

Alexa:

I just had a rough day. I was most prepared for this event. Some days you make a mistake and can pick up and carry on OK and other days it all starts to unravel. This was one of those days.

Chris:

Ice is slippery. You're out there for four and half minutes and it's hard. But Alexa's a fighter and she fought hard tonight. She's been through a lot to get to this point. The last two years have been so hard. And this year I have been the one with all the mistakes and Alexa is the strength of the team. One program doesn't determine who you are as a skater.
(On what they'll do next) We're going to focus on taking a break. And then we'll get back on the ice and go from there to the next challenge.

 

[Jammers]

S/K should not have had to carry US Pairs by themselves to keep 2 spots for two years in a row at Worlds. The 2nd US team needs to take some of the blame for not even being able to make the FS. That is not asking a lot.

 

[RoseRed]

S/K should not have had to carry US Pairs by themselves to keep 2 spots for two years in a row at Worlds. The 2nd US team needs to take some of the blame for not even being able to make the FS. That is not asking a lot.

First, to be clear, I'm not blaming SK/K. I feel for them. But that's also not fair to Deanna and Nate. They were alternates who found out they were competing one day before they flew to Italy. They had no major errors and got a SB SP score. What more did people expect from them? It's unfortunate that K/O were injured and unable to compete (though I'm thrilled S/B got that opportunity), because they would have had a better chance to make the FS and help get 2 spots. But it happens.

 

[Cleo1782]

S/K should not have had to carry US Pairs by themselves to keep 2 spots for two years in a row at Worlds. The 2nd US team needs to take some of the blame for not even being able to make the FS. That is not asking a lot.

Well, S/k certainly got all the credit for saving the 2 spots last year, but shouldn't be held accountable for their skate this year? D/F got all the blame last year....
S/B were last minute replacements that have been together for 2 years (and only 2 yrs of pairs for her period). They didn't go out there and bomb. They skated nearly clean with a minor error on the throw. It wasn't quite enough to make the free and arguably it should have.
S/K have been National champions twice, been top 10 at several worlds, are Olympic team medalists, and have a lot more expectations. They performed unusually poorly. They easily could have made the top 10 with even a decent performance. This was a disaster. I am sure they tried their best, but it was really bad.
Yes, it's unfortunate they had to carry the weight, but it's also unfortunate the reigning 4cc's champions got injured a few days before worlds too.
Honestly it's silly to play the blame game, but Alexa and Chris won't even be in the top 3 at Nationals with that performance next year.

 

[rfisher]

I agree with the previous two messages. An even playing field for everyone. No pair is presumed to be the favored one going into the upcoming season.
US pairs have a lot of work to do to progress even to make the top ten at worlds.

This. US nationals was a prelude to this result. I'm not faulting Alexa. She has had a rough two years, but, they were given a huge boost at nationals to get the Olympic spot. They have never fully come back after her surgery. Not a blame. Just the reality. But, no use crying over spilled milk. What is, is. But, the USFSA needs to actually select the best team at Nationals and 4CC for next year's worlds and not rely on their infamous BOW. That hasn't gained them a thing thus far.

 

[my little pony]

but, they were given a huge boost at nationals to get the Olympic spot. .

and it wasnt necessary, their BOW was sending them to the Olympics regardless

 

[Carolla5501]

S/K Have grown on me but the truth is they been held up by the United States all season long. They may be the best we have but continuing to hold them up and over score of them has not done them or the other teams we have out there any favors. And honestly looking at her after today’s skate she needs to make some decisions, her health is worth a lot more than the sport


She’s never really said what was wrong with her and that’s her right, but my impression over the few last years is she has not fully recovered and maybe she isn’t going to be the skater and athlete she was.

I think they should take the Olympic team medal, be happy with it and move on. Because I do not think they are going to make it any farther than they have as cruel as that may sound.

And sending them when they are not ready or not performing well is not helping the rest of our teams..( Not that we have much that’s dramatically better)

 

[rfisher]

and it wasnt necessary, their BOW was sending them to the Olympics regardless

That BOW policy is really working well so far. Maybe next year it they'll go with which ever skater is skating best. But, none of the other US teams showed any more promise at nationals except Deanna/Nate who did the best they could and better than any of the other top 5 teams. Let's face it: US pairs are in terrible shape at the moment. The best prospect we have is a novice team whose mother (hers) won an OGM for Russia. For some reason, Zimmerman was excellent for James/Cipres, but hasn't really been an impact for any US team. Sappenfeld hasn't had anybody except K/K, Peterson's group is so-so, and I don't even think about Todd and Jenny. Rocky and Stefania are still building so it's not as if this is a big surprise.

 

[Tesla]

Frankly, Alexa and Chris deserved the Olympics spot, hands down. They performed amazingly during the team event. I think they were the right choice for the Olympics. As for Worlds, they maybe should’ve bypassed it and rested, as they must be exhausted. Prior to 4CCs, they were the highest scoring US pairs team. Maybe that’s why they felt they had to go to Worlds.

 

[DimaToe]

It’s hard to make BOW a valid argument for the U.S. pairs when theirs are all emaciated no pair is at the level that they should be guaranteed anything, next season each competition should be seen as an opportunity for the pairs to prove why they are (or should be seen) as the top pair and as a no brainer for the worlds spot. Once a pair has a season with a couple GP medals and top 6 placement at worlds to fall back on, then bring up the BOW argument.

 

[Sylvia]

I forgot to mention earlier that Scimeca Knierim/Knierim were mostly successful on their side-by-side jumps in their FS:

3S (4.40 BV) -0.80 GOE = 3.60
2A+2A+SEQ (5.28 BV) +0.50 GOE = 5.78 (first time they've attempted this in a several years? will go check)

In the SP they both landed their sbs 3S as well (-0.10 GOE) = 4.30

Credit to working with Christy Krall, I assume?

 

[aftershocks]

Oh boy, instead of even one step forward, it turns out disastrous (but not all gloom and doom of course). Still, U.S. pairs at least needed to keep two pairs spots to have a better chance of incrementally improving. Athletes need to be good to get chances, but they also need the opportunity to compete at major championships in order to develop, improve and gain invaluable experience. I believe Tarah and Danny at full strength could have at least grabbed 10th or 11th place overall with their beautifully choreographed programs. But they apparently over-trained as Olympic understudies, which aggravated Tarah's previous injury.

Oh well. U.S. pairs will have to work ever harder to gain any kind of traction. But the ISU has to allow more spots for moving forward to the fp to account for the depth among pairs internationally. Someone mentioned the Knierims being tired. Yes I suppose the Olympics season is draining. To be honest, U.S. pairs teams have been hampered in recent years by injuries, and so it's been difficult for all of them trying to rebuild. The Knierims have been seen as the best due to their prior recognition for their quad twist and a former 7th place finish at Worlds. Although they've held their own at times since last year's Worlds, they've been kind of up-and-down performance-wise. So they appear to be still rebuilding to match their former stronger showings. They have some explosive power, nice lifts, good distance on throws, but have been inconsistent on sbs, and rarely compete cleanly.

The Knierims were great in the team event at the Olympics but it was a bit downhill from there. Although they have been considered the strongest U.S. pairs team, they were not strong enough to make the showing that was needed. Tara & Danny of course would have been a more experienced second team back-up, if not for Tara's re-injury necessitating withdrawal. It was a nice showing for Deanna & Nate in the sp at their first Words, but they were hampered going in by a lack of rep with the judges, no really wow factor elements, and the overall politics of the situation re the fp qualifying cut-off.

With the depth in pairs internationally, the U.S. is going to need a very strong, consistent team to be able to score high enough and gain solid political rep so that there will be more opportunities for other U.S. pairs teams to gain Worlds experience. Formerly, teams like Shen/Zhao could place 20 at Worlds and continue gaining experience year after year until they were better and better. Once again, the sport of figure skating is antiquated in how their competitive structure doesn't really work that well for the advancement of athletes and in turn, of the sport.

A very strange World championships overall, to say the least.

 

[aftershocks]

That BOW policy is really working well so far. Maybe next year it they'll go with which ever skater is skating best. But, none of the other US teams showed any more promise at nationals except Deanna/Nate who did the best they could and better than any of the other top 5 teams. Let's face it: US pairs are in terrible shape at the moment. The best prospect we have is a novice team whose mother (hers) won an OGM for Russia. For some reason, Zimmerman was excellent for James/Cipres, but hasn't really been an impact for any US team. Sappenfeld hasn't had anybody except K/K, Peterson's group is so-so, and I don't even think about Todd and Jenny. Rocky and Stefania are still building so it's not as if this is a big surprise.

IMO, you are exaggerating, over-simplifying and making assumptions. How can you speak about 'best prospect' in relation to a novice team. It's hard to even know how good junior teams will develop over the long term. You are skipping over the the two U.S. junior teams who had very decent showings at Junior Worlds and qualified for sending 3 teams next season. Why the over-fixation with a former Russian pairs skater's daughter?

It's not 'for some reason' that Zimmerman has worked out for James/Cipres. There are a number of very good reasons why Zimmerman and his staff have been able to work magic for J/C. A large part of that is J/C's talent and years of experience building and developing on the Worlds stage because they have been the top team in their country for so long. The other part is the great coaching team Zimmerman has put together with an important component being John Kerr's choreographic skills.

At this point, Zimmerman has a few lower level U.S. teams that I'm aware of. Everyone at the senior level is not going to rush to him, and he's not going to be able to accommodate everyone either. Rocky & Stefania are a new coaching team, and they are still in the early stages of working with some promising younger teams, and also helping to rebuild Haven & Brandon's career after Haven's devastating knee injury. Their year off for Haven to heal took away a great deal of momentum from them. And when they came back, Haven's knee was not at full strength which led to inconsistent results and a loss of confidence.

Figure skating as we know is a tough sport. It's not enough to have talent. Luck, politics, good health and steady momentum are also necessary, and hard to come by.

It is what it is at the moment for U.S. pairs, but it's certainly not all gloom and doom simply because no strides were made at Worlds after three U.S. teams had excellent showing at 4CCs in an Olympic season. For fans perhaps it's best to take things as they come, and not over-react to every performance, every competitive event, and every heartbreaking setback.

 

[her grace]

All this upset about SK/K being chosen for the world team? Were SK/K gifted at nationals or not? Because I thought that while their score was too high, they still deserved to win. They also had the strongest BOW and the highest international score of any American pair coming into nationals. If any other team had lit the world on fire throughout the fall season, or even just had taken a consistent sizeable leap, a la Tennell, that team probably would have been seriously considered. But no one did.

Scimeca-Knierim/Knierim defeated Yu/Zhang and Della Monica/Guarise at the Olympics. Which other American pair could have done that? Kayne/O'Shea were still clearly on the comeback trail at nationals and while they skated well, they still don't have elements with the same GOE potential as Scimeca-Knierim/Knierim. Plus they were injured for worlds so not available even if they had won nationals. Stellato/Bartholomay skated creditably at nationals, but their base value is not particularly high. It's no surprise that they didn't make it to the LP. Cain/LeDuc have been fairly inconsistent so they might not have qualified for the LP either. The world has gotten much stronger at pairs and the U.S. hasn't caught up. It seems like people think the U.S. should have sent a "stronger" team when in actuality the U.S. doesn't have a stronger team. Maybe next season there will be one. I'm sure USFS will pay attention to all the American teams in the international competitions and won't automatically grant the world spot to any particular team.

If I was making any policy changes to how team selection is done, it would be about how to fill the second pair spot (in the future if the U.S. earns it again some day). I would put priority on the team with the highest-scoring and most consistent SP. Bomb in the LP if you must, but at least get there!

 

[Willin]

If anyone thinks S/K aren't the best, most internationally competitive US Pair's team, you're wrong.

K/O are very good and would be neck-and-neck without the injuries. But the injuries have set them back as far as international reputation, and they had another injury preventing them from going to worlds. S/B are never going to catch up to S/K, but they're solid. They only finish as low as they do because everyone else is so good. C/L need a year or two more to get to S/K's level of international competitiveness.

Honestly I think the biggest reason people are frustrated with S/K is that they are the best the US has to offer and they're still not doing well standings-wise. Yes, they are inconsistent, but so are many other top pair's teams. I think their biggest issue by far isn't themselves but rather those they compete against. Right now it's a golden age of pairs. Ten teams - 10 - got over 200 points at Worlds, and that's missing two of the top pair's teams (D/R and S/H). Even four years ago only the top 4 got over 200; in 2013 only three teams did. The 10th place score this year (202.02) would've won worlds six years ago.
Think of it this way - without the mistakes in the short (and ending 3 seconds early, which likely took off some PCS points) - they likely would've been one of the 6 teams separated by ~2 points after the SP! Even with those mistakes, they were still only 3 points out of 5th - less than the BV of all but one element in a pair's FS. So they're definitely competitive for the Top 10 if they are clean.

 

[Ohyes]

Their clap backs to phil hersh calling their skating trash are funny. I love when skaters call journalists and judges out on their bullsh!t.

https://twitter.com/alexa_knierim/status/976966020610084865
https://twitter.com/ChrisKnierim/status/976960503271645184

 

[Wyliefan]

Whoa! Dark Alexa is back! And she brought Dark Chris with her!

 

[aftershocks]

It just becomes somewhat of a vicious cycle because with the increased depth worldwide, coupled with the injuries and health crises so many U.S. pairs have sustained, it's made it very difficult for new teams like S-D/B and C/L to have a chance to slowly develop before having huge expectations placed on them. Also, the relatively new pairing of Castelli/Tran has not yet worked out despite having enviable style, speed and talent that could compete with the best in the world, if only they could figure out their inconsistent technical weaknesses. By now, I'm not holding my breath. The more veteran teams (D/F and S-K/K) that could maybe have held the fort and laid groundwork, have been debilitated by injury and illness. As a result, a strain has been placed on what was already an average to middling discipline for the U.S. If completely healthy and able to have consistently built momentum, D/F, S-K/K and K/O all have enough decent talent to compete well and best many of the mid-to-lower-ranked international teams in the Worlds fp segment.

It's very important to not discount politics which is rampant in this sport and always part of the buzz/rep factor going into events. I think we all knew it would be touch-and-go for S-D/B being able to make the fp. They did quite well under the circumstances. It's not their fault the ISU are total buttheads, incapable of beneficially leading this sport. S-D/B did their part. And I don't fault the Knierims for being fatigued and lacking energy and enthusiasm at this event. It's true that right now all of the top U.S. pairs teams are fairly evenly matched. S-K/K had going for them more international rep and the quad twist factor, which is not at full strength for them since their comeback last season. Our top veteran teams, as I said, have been depleted from injury and illness. Therefore, it's more difficult all around for the newly partnered and building teams to steadily progress with the extra load of expectations placed on them at the same time that the veteran rebuilding teams have found themselves losing ground internationally.

Add in the buzz (good and bad) and the politics and it all becomes a vicious cycle. But still not gloom and doom. I'm going to try and enjoy the teams I enjoy watching, and realize that the sport itself is undergoing complicated transition, unfortunately made even more challenging due to the ISU's bonehead lack of leadership.

I love Alexa & Chris calling out 'Philly Poo' on his aimless snark!

 

[el henry]

I'm also at posts thinking that the Knierims were somehow "gifted" their Worlds or Olympics spot. Are you kidding me? And who the heck else is better? I loooove Deanna and Nate, but they did the best they could do. Tarah and Danny are fighting injuries, as shown by their withdrawal. Ashley and Tim can be great .... or not. As a poster on GS said, it's not like the US is leaving Gordeeva and Grinkov at home

And there is a lot that could be done, perhaps should be done, to improve the US pairs program. But I'm not the Swedish fed, and skaters matter to me whether or not they challenge for the almighty medals.

I am loving how everyone is calling out Phil Hersh on Twitter. His rapid descent into irrelevancy and just bone-headedness is dizzying. But calling him a "journalist"? Once upon a time, he was, now .... I expect to see those types of comments in an NFL subreddit. With or without the "Oh, it's a sport sport sport" justification.

 

[Willin]

@el henry Yes, but it wouldn't be a sports subreddit without enough salt to cause hypertension and excessive s***posting. (Which is why I don't go on the Figure Skating one - not nearly enough memes or jokes).

I think Phil Hersh deserves whatever nasty comments he's getting. If you're going to call someone's skating "trash," you should be expecting someone to call you trash - especially on twitter. He's been in the business long enough to know that there's a difference between journalism (ie. "they are inconsistent") and bad sports blogging (ie. "trash"). I feel no pity for him.