Virtue, Moir hope revamped programs will lift them to Olympic gold

[Steph]

Coming back to the WRs topic you wanted to address...
You're telling us that Season Bests are fake, score comparisons are fake, etc, right?
Accumulating WRs is definitely relevant for all skaters! Be sure of one thing, being the very first couple to break the bar of 200 pts was among the major goals to reach this season for V/M (and P/C as well). You dramatically underestimate the power of numbers. When P/C broke the 200 pts at the Cup of China, this information was broadcast worldwide as a major event in the ice dance community. When P/C broke the D/W FD WR at Worlds in Boston in 2016, everyone immediately noticed it. Coaches, skaters and even former skaters like Charlie White reported it.

Not fake, but really, not meaningful. The current judging system still contains plenty of relative placement criteria, even though it holds itself out to be composed of absolute placement criteria. I've always cringed at the WR and season's best stuff -- it's pointless and misleading.

 

[Steph]

I just watched P/Cs SD from Euros back to back with V/Ms SD from nationals and there is no comparison. V/Ms program has way more going on choreographically and P/Cs expression and interpretation aren’t even close to V/Ms. I’d argue that Hubbell and Dononue and the Shibs have much stronger SDs than P/C. I think P/C made a mistake with the music choice and slowing it down to get the right timing for the rhumba - it actually makes them look a bit slow or cautious or something.

I watched it a few days ago, first time I've seen it this season. She looked...ungainly. I was genuinely shocked, because they're usually brilliant and it didn't make any sense at all. Was it just a bad performance?

 

[sap5]

I am surprised at your statement. V/M are of course excellent skaters, but in what way are they superior skaters to P/C? IMO P/C have deeper edges, better flow, better knee-bend, they are able to use their upper body in ways V/M have never even tried because P/C have better balance. In your opinion, what are the aspects in which V/M are superior?

Asli- how do you think PC would look doing a CD like the Yankee Polka or Finnstep? Because I agree with a lot of what you have written, but sometimes I think their knee bend and flow is almost too much? I remember having this same feeling with their swing section in last year's SD...like I was missing a kind of sharp crispness? I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well enough, but I'll try some more if I'm not understandable.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I watched it a few days ago, first time I've seen it this season. She looked...ungainly. I was genuinely shocked, because they're usually brilliant and it didn't make any sense at all. Was it just a bad performance?

I think they had made changes to the program before Euros so they were working those through. I too watched and thought it wasn't as fluid as what they normally were. However it wasn't definable, it was just a sense.

 

[Rafter]

I watched it a few days ago, first time I've seen it this season. She looked...ungainly. I was genuinely shocked, because they're usually brilliant and it didn't make any sense at all. Was it just a bad performance?

Not sure. I think part of the problem is she’s bow legged. So the bow leggedness doesn’t always lend itself to nice lines. And she’s wearing a much shorter skirt than she normally wears which emphasizes it even more. I just don’t think Latin is their thing.

 

[Rafter]

Not fake, but really, not meaningful. The current judging system still contains plenty of relative placement criteria, even though it holds itself out to be composed of absolute placement criteria. I've always cringed at the WR and season's best stuff -- it's pointless and misleading.

The judges under this Code of Points system can still manipulate marks in the GOE and PCS to help determine placements. Especially in ice dance.

 

[Ohyes]

Oh honey, Asli has forgotten more about ice dance than you will ever know.

ADMIN: PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING IMAGES/GIFS ETC.

 

[Asli]

Asli- how do you think PC would look doing a CD like the Yankee Polka or Finnstep? Because I agree with a lot of what you have written, but sometimes I think their knee bend and flow is almost too much? I remember having this same feeling with their swing section in last year's SD...like I was missing a kind of sharp crispness? I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well enough, but I'll try some more if I'm not understandable.

I see what you mean sap5. Guillaume said in an interview last year that the depth of their edges could be a disadvantage in the step sequences. He said it's easier to do clean turns with shallower edges and sometimes they have to tone down their knee bend a bit.

Gabriella and Guillaume have skated the Finnstep in their first senior season. Here's their quickstep-foxtrot-quickstep SD from 2014. They have progressed loads since, but one can't fault their crispness even then.

Here's their terrific free dance from the same year. Criminally undermarked, but no harm done because the judges woke up the next year.

Gabriella and Guillaume are always crisp and exactly on the beat. For a dance with a different feel, here is an Elvis Presley medley they danced when they were juniors and their excellent flamenco shows a different mood too.

 

[Ohyes]

I see what you mean sap5. Guillaume said in an interview last year that the depth of their edges could be a disadvantage in the step sequences. He said it's easier to do clean turns with shallower edges and sometimes they have to tone down their knee bend a bit.

Gabriella and Guillaume have skated the Finnstep in their first senior season. Here's their quickstep-foxtrot-quickstep SD from 2014. They have progressed loads since, but one can't fault their crispness even then.

Here's their terrific free dance from the same year. Criminally undermarked, but no harm done because the judges woke up the next year.

Gabriella and Guillaume are always crisp and exactly on the beat. For a dance with a different feel, here is an Elvis Presley medley they danced when they were juniors and their excellent flamenco shows a different mood too.

ADMIN: PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING IMAGES/GIFS

 

[sap5]

I see what you mean sap5. Guillaume said in an interview last year that the depth of their edges could be a disadvantage in the step sequences. He said it's easier to do clean turns with shallower edges and sometimes they have to tone down their knee bend a bit.

Gabriella and Guillaume have skated the Finnstep in their first senior season. Here's their quickstep-foxtrot-quickstep SD from 2014. They have progressed loads since, but one can't fault their crispness even then.

Here's their terrific free dance from the same year. Criminally undermarked, but no harm done because the judges woke up the next year.

Gabriella and Guillaume are always crisp and exactly on the beat. For a dance with a different feel, here is an Elvis Presley medley they danced when they were juniors and their excellent flamenco shows a different mood too.

Thanks for the links, Asli. Crispness must not be the correct word to use, because the 2014 SD you linked shows exactly the problems I'm thinking of, but don't know how to describe correctly. Frustrating! I could maybe try to point out the times in the video, but now's not the time as I'm watching the Super Bowl.

 

[Japanfan]

Spoiler

They are Canadian.

One doesn't need to be Canadian to love V/M.

FYI, I have rooted for/ubered many skaters who are/were not Canadian. D/S (France) FD to The Piano might be my favorite free dance of all time.

It did used to bother me a lot back when there appeared to be a line-up of Russian ice dancers for medals. It did seem that politics were at play, but at the same time, I did consider that the Russian ice dance teams at the time were subjective.

FS and ice dance particularly have a subjective element. I am an emotional FS viewer to a certain extent. I am thrilled when my favorites deliver and win, and disappointed when they do not. I am happy when a skater/team I favor less make a mistake that gives an advantage to the skater/team I favor more.

But OTOH I love a good, nail-biting competition as well.

 

[Asli]

Papadakis/Cizeron vs Virtue/Moir: best rivalry EVER!
Best skating skills EVER!
Quality, style class, intelligence - an ice dance fan's heaven spoiled only by the fact that they are all such nice people and such good friends that they aren't giving us any drama.

Enjoy it, people! We have only one competition left and then who knows when we'll get another fantastic rivalry like this one!

 

[Asli]

Thanks for the links, Asli. Crispness must not be the correct word to use, because the 2014 SD you linked shows exactly the problems I'm thinking of, but don't know how to describe correctly. Frustrating! I could maybe try to point out the times in the video, but now's not the time as I'm watching the Super Bowl.

They are pretty young!

 

[Taso]

Papadakis/Cizeron vs Virtue/Moir: best rivalry EVER!
Best skating skills EVER!
Quality, style class, intelligence - an ice dance fan's heaven spoiled only by the fact that they are all such nice people and such good friends that they aren't giving us any drama.

Enjoy it, people! We have only one competition left and then who knows when we'll get another fantastic rivalry like this one!

Asli Yes it's incredible. I only hope whoever skates best wins, and will be so happy for whichever team wins and crushed for the one that doesn't.

 

[sap5]

They are pretty young!

That is true. But you had asked in which way VM are superior skaters and that's where I'd say it is. But PC have a long career ahead of them and I'm looking forward to seeing them master many styles.

 

[Asli]

That is true. But you had asked in which way VM are superior skaters and that's where I'd say it is. But PC have a long career ahead of them and I'm looking forward to seeing them master many styles.

What I meant is that the quickstep is from four years ago, which is their entire senior career. I'm absolutely sure they'd skate it better now.

 

[sap5]

What I meant is that the quickstep is from four years ago, which is their entire senior career. I'm absolutely sure they'd skate it better now.

I know you meant it that way. The issue is one that I still see in their skating today though. I'll try to PM you later this week maybe to discuss.

 

[Zazy]

I see what you mean sap5. Guillaume said in an interview last year that the depth of their edges could be a disadvantage in the step sequences. He said it's easier to do clean turns with shallower edges and sometimes they have to tone down their knee bend a bit.

I can't speak for sap5 but I'm not sure that's what she meant.
At least for me, it's not about unclean edges but a certain stiffness (?) in the knees from Gabriella whenever she attempts quicker steps. Which is weird because her knees look great otherwise, not sure what the issue is exactly.

But I think that's why they moved so quickly up the ranks after they moved to Montreal, their new style has them basically only doing what they can do very well. And that's smart but it does mean that they're restricted to a certain style of skating, even if the style of music changes in future programs I don't think they'll attempt anything different, skating-wise. Maybe they'll surprise me but it would mean seriously exposing their weaknesses.

Anyways, I may be a V/M uber but I admire a lot of things in P/C, especially their musicality. This isn't about whether they deserve to win at the olys, more about why they seem to struggle a bit outside of a very narrowly defined style of skating (which they also use in the SDs, as much as they can). I do think they should be penalized somewhat for the extreme simplicity and lack of partnering in their preferred style but there's no arguing that they do it extremely well.

 

[Asli]

I want to give another link for P/C's magnificient flamenco. This is the Euros performance. What a feast!

ETA: @Zazy, "extreme simplicity and lack of partnering"! You tell yourself that, if it makes you happy.

 

[alice73]

I want to give another link for P/C's magnificient flamenco. This is the Euros performance. What a feast!

ETA: @Zazy, "extreme simplicity and lack of partnering"! You tell yourself that, if it makes you happy.

It was good but no match for V/M flamenco from 2010 Olympics.

 

[Zazy]

ETA: @Zazy, "extreme simplicity and lack of partnering"! You tell yourself that, if it makes you happy.

How can anyone argue that? You can say that the quality of what they do is such that it makes up for the openness and simplicity, that's a legitimate argument. Denying that it exists is truly perplexing and ubering at its finest.

Even their step sequences are as open as the rules will allow. They mostly skate in parallel, interdependent movement is virtually non-existant. To me that's the most important thing in ice dance, what distinguishes it from pairs, but it's going the way of the dodo. Again, if that isn't important to your vision of ice dance, that's fine, there's plenty of room for debate, but claiming that their programs include complex partnering... I don't know how anyone could say that with a straight face.

IMO, while Guillaume is an absolutely amazing solo ice dancer, I don't think his partnering is on the same level as the rest of his skills. Scott Moir and Alex Shibutani, for example, are much stronger in this area. Now ice dance changes, evolves, certain things become less important. A case can definitely be made that P/C are the best ice dancers in the world, it all depends on what you value most in ice dance. But there really is no need to insult people who point out the obvious...

 

[Twilight1]

At the end of the day, Virtue and Moir are probably going to leave South Korea with 5 Olympic medals from 3 Olympics. That is truly incredible and something we might not see again for a while in ice dance

If they deserve Gold, I hope they get it. They are just as good as P&C... despite what some people say. ;-)

That said, who knows what will happen after 2018.

 

[Japanfan]

As for your comment about the upper bodies ROTFL. No way. Papadakis could not come close to moving her upper body in the variety of dances and music genres the way Virtue does.

I can't think of any female dancer off-hand who compares to Tessa in terms of upper body movement - it's truly sublime and enchanting, with an organic musicality. And Scott showcases it perfectly, not to take anything away from his own considerable skill as an ice dancer.

It was good but no match for V/M flamenco from 2010 Olympics.

I too preferred V/M flamenco. IIRC all three Canadian dance teams did the flamenco for the original dance at the 2010 Olympics and all three went to Spain to prepare - and I enjoyed all three. However, I'm sure P/C have done preparation as well. And the SD is not the same thing as the original dance, which I miss very much.

 

[once_upon]

Nah. The sport's fraught with the same nonsense as ever. Either team could skate better and still lose, and a decade from now people will be arguing about it. Thus has it always been, thus will it always be.

Read if V/M don't destroy the WR by a billion points, they will have been ROBBED by politics from their true place of Goddess and God in figure skating. Not even Sonia H is worthy to be in their presence.
I look forward to the unending polls declaring them the Gods among Gods.

Quite frankly P/C and V/M short dances don't interest me they are equally bland and their free dances are equal in content. It will be the slight bauble that happens on that day which will determine the outcome. Not politics. Not some imagined slight of the coaches giving the best program to someone else.

The tiny misstep, that's going to be the key.

 

[Steph]

Read if V/M don't destroy the WR by a billion points, they will have been ROBBED by politics from their true place of Goddess and God in figure skating. Not even Sonia H is worthy to be in their presence.

Can you please build straw men on someone else's posts? I certainly don't believe anything like this.

 

[once_upon]

Can you please build straw men on someone else's posts? I certainly don't believe anything like this.

I commented that yes we will have endless polls and threads about the results. And that I personally think that they are well matched but anticipate all the reasons for how it will go down if the results aren't to one's bias.
Sorry.

 

[Japanfan]

I commented that yes we will have endless polls and threads about the results. And that I personally think that they are well matched but anticipate all the reasons for how it will go down if the results aren't to one's bias.
Sorry.

I prefer V/M and that is my bias (and just that), but I don't particularly care for MR, which I think was a regrettable choice of program. As I've said repeatedly, I think Moonlight Sonata is the superior program. V/M's Gold skate to Mahler in 2010 was a highlight for me that stands out in the more than 20 years I've watched figure skating - with their much older Valse Triste being my second favorite V/M program. A gold medal for anything less would be a bit of an anti-climax. .

I agree that the teams are well-matched and think it may come down to how the teams skate on the day but give P/C the edge because of the program. I'll read the endless threads and see them as a learning opportunity - much as the S/P versus B/S wars on the board in 2002 gave me a fountain of knowledge about pairs skating.

One of my litmus tests for FS is whether a skater/team I don't particularly care for can turn me into a fan, or at least instill a deep sense of appreciation in my. Sometimes the 'not particularly caring for' is emotional and I can't even put my finger on the reason why.

My capacity to be surprised is a big part of the equation as to why I watch FS.

 

[allezfred]

ETA: @Zazy, "extreme simplicity and lack of partnering"! You tell yourself that, if it makes you happy.

Innit though.

 

[aftershocks]

Interesting profile on V/M & promoting their choice of Roxanne (from MR) -- I don't know if it's been linked already:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq34LihI6jE

I wish they had English subtitles for the French spoken by M-F, Patch and Chouinard et al! Good for V/M in showing how much they believe in their fp and tweaks they've made to it. They've been dedicated in their desire to come back and expand their growth as athletes and dancers. They are sincere and driven and great at what they do, and that benefits the sport and the ice dance discipline. I also think the chance of working with M-F & Patch in the competitive realm and against the best in P/C et al, provided a necessary challenge that pushed V/M even more, and in turn helped P/C's growth and benefited everyone in their camp (coaches, skaters) thus impacting other skaters and resonating throughout the ice dance world.

Of course, everyone wants to be on top of the podium and the battle is fierce. And skaters have to believe they are the best in their bones and show it. V/M are admirably great dancers, technicians, artists, and great champions. But quite often what P/C conjure on the ice magically pushes beyond adequate words to express how they meld music, movement and emotion. P/C are still learning and growing in many ways, but they have this remarkably ineffable ability to take us on a captivating and unforgettable journey that's fleeting but lasts forever in our hearts.

 

[maglia]

Interesting profile on V/M & promoting their choice of Roxanne (from MR) -- I don't know if it's been linked already:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq34LihI6jE

I wish they had English subtitles for the French spoken by M-F, Patch and Chouinard!

The movie is nice, very well designed and mastered. Some parts are really interesting especially when Samuel Chouinard explains how some sequences were first created and then step by step modified.

Now, no one is fooled. Releasing such video 15 days prior the individual competitions seems a little fishy! I would have preferred to see a movie like this one released much earlier. Talking about the program, the choreography, the music choice, etc is perfectly fine by me. Now, was it worth and well inspired to talk about "perfect score"? Not sure... especially next to Olys... One can even wonder whether there was a Grand-Prix season, and a GPF! In the end, it makes me feel really uncomfortable. Several sequences really look like outrageous propaganda. The most ridiculous thing is Leanna Caron appearing here and there. She pretends to be judge in int'l competitions while being head of the Canadian fed! What a shame! The ISU should seriously change some rules.

The Canadian fed is obviously ready to promote V/M at any cost. It's not new, they already did it last season but it seems they are ready to spend even more money this season. After the hearings, massive propaganda on social networks, ridiculous (not say hilarious) scores at Canadian Nat'l (widely promoted), it's now time for a movie... What else should we expect by Feb. 19th?