Virtue, Moir hope revamped programs will lift them to Olympic gold

[maglia]

V&M could easily do a successful program to moonlight sonata, after all didn't Marina compare them to Gordeeva and Grinkov and I honestly feel it would be a superior program to P&C due to Tessa's Balletic quality plus they skated to harder classical pieces like Mahler and Glazunov , P&Con the other hand would look foolish to attempt something like Moulin Rouge.

Hahaha! Let me see... Mahler and Gazunov pieces "harder to skate" compared to Moonlight Sonata... Hummm So funny! Poor Beethoven!
So "V&M could easily do a successful program to moonlight sonata"? LOL! They were so far not able to deliver a Moulin Rouge program great enough to beat P/C Moonlight Sonata... And this is a fact !

 

[yurokis40]

P&C have no range sorry , the only thing they do well is that fluid lyrical movement they have been doing for 4 years, there is a double standard here I remember V&M were criticized for doing a lot of lovey dovey fd's which wasn't true, P&C I think have reached their plateau artistically if they can't expand they might as well retire after this year, judges are very fickle they are always looking for the next best thing.

 

[chapis]

judges are very fickle they are always looking for the next best thing.

This is sooo true.

 

[Anyasnake]

P&C have no range sorry , the only thing they do well is that fluid lyrical movement they have been doing for 4 years, there is a double standard here I remember V&M were criticized for doing a lot of lovey dovey fd's which wasn't true, P&C I think have reached their plateau artistically if they can't expand they might as well retire after this year, judges are very fickle they are always looking for the next best thing.

Isn't that what you are doing ? criticizing them for doing "the same" ? Really, I don't understand the V/M ubers sometimes. You use against P/C all the arguments that were used against V/M at the time. Wasn't that annoying enough to hear that before ?
Method : Find the best skaters, use those arguments. Find the next best skaters, repeat. It's getting tiring.

And if the "next best thing" is actually the best, let it be.

P/C have another quad to go. But they won't do an egyptian or Irish FD to prove to anyone that they can do it.

 

[IloveFS]

With respect, I totally disagree. Look at their 2010 Olympic program as an example (and btw, they won with that program). They are more than capable of skating to any genre of music and they are the most versatile ice dance team ever. I much prefer VM to PC and I think VM will leave much more of a legacy than PC. I much prefer DW (even though they are retired), WP, GP, CL, SS, HD to PC as well. I just don't like their vision of ice dance or their style.

Isn't that what you are doing ? criticizing them for doing "the same" ? Really, I don't understand the V/M ubers sometimes. You use against P/C all the arguments that were used against V/M at the time. Wasn't that annoying enough to hear that before ?
Method : Find the best skaters, use those arguments. Find the next best skaters, repeat. It's getting tiring.

And if the "next best thing" is actually the best, let it be.

P/C have another quad to go. But they won't do an egyptian or Irish FD to prove to anyone that they can do it.

In another four years, PC will face fierce competition from a number of current teams (including some junior teams). I don't think that they will dominate the sport 4 years from now.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

No, they'd manage to capture what edgy means https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrlnJRy1mz4

PS: for anyone wondering if they'd cope with more acrobatic lifts https://youtu.be/TrlnJRy1mz4?t=218 - Gabby's position IMO beats any of the current variations of this being performed, and it has a complex entry + smooth & complex exit too

I truly enjoy Papadakis and Cizeron and their skating -I'm not one of the many V/M ubers in this thread. Getting that out of the way, that's a terrible example. Gabby is barely doing anything, all of that entrance is on Guillaume. He has his arm wrapped around her entire body and is making the flipping rotation happen with TWO strongly gripping hands (her knee and butt). Then, Guillaume has to steady and support her with his entire side and lift her knee/leg into the position on his thigh. There is a ton of body-to-body touching/leaning that Gabby is doing to anchor her position against Cizeron. It's not anywhere near as complex of an entry as some of the lifts we've seen this year, most notably from V/M and Chock/Bates. I don't think Gabby has the core strength to hit those types of positions or execute those types of entrances with the necessary speed without serious help from her partner.

 

[sap5]

In any other words, yes, both teams have very similar career debut in Seniors. Both have been extremely criticized for winning too early. But why waiting for your turn when you have that much talent...
Also, even without winning it all in Juniors like some other teams (who were or are now ranked lower), both were praised for the technique and most importantly, the Star quality/X-factor. Something you cannot teach.

Do you mean PC? Because VM did win it all in Juniors.

 

[millyskate]

Gabby is barely doing anything, all of that entrance is on Guillaume. He has his arm wrapped around her entire body and is making the flipping rotation happen with TWO strongly gripping hands (her knee and butt)..

I guess that's why it's all subjective. I see her balancing with skates together on one leg which is harder that leveraging on two, I see her managing to maintain a relaxed back position, expressive face and arms instead of tensing for everything's worth and pulling a forced grin, and although the entry is not the best executed, transition into the rotational position completely fluidly with no hoisting, heaving or jerking. We all are sensitive to different things.

PS: I do really like Chock and Bates also though, they manage to be expressive and avoid jerkiness in and out of their lifts as well. They're one of the few teams who close up, don't seem tense or under a lot of strain.

 

[Anyasnake]

Are you talking about PC? Because VM did win it all in Juniors.

Both. I recall watching V/M videos from 2005 (not 2006, I think they might have swept everything in juniors that year ?) and commentators already raving about them so much.

 

[sap5]

I guess that's why it's all subjective.

Yes. And ultimately, the gold will depend entirely upon the subjective judgement of the judges, unless one team falls multiple times -- or maybe not even then, as some teams fall more artistically than others.

 

[sap5]

Both. I recall watching V/M videos from 2005 (not 2006, I think they might have swept everything in juniors that year ?) and commentators already raving about them so much.

Yes, they won all their Junior competitions in the 2005-2006 season.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

I guess that's why it's all subjective. I see her balancing with skates together on one leg which is harder that leveraging on two, I see her managing to maintain a relaxed back position, expressive face and arms instead of tensing for everything's worth and pulling a forced grin, and although the entry is not the best executed, transition into the rotational position completely fluidly with no hoisting, heaving or jerking. We all are sensitive to different things.

Sure, there are absolutely aspects of the complete lift itself that are very pleasing. BUT, literally nothing you mentioned in bold has to do with complexity of entrance...

I also disagree that there is no hoisting going on. Guillaume is hoisting her into every position, regardless of how ethereal Gabby can make being thrown around look. He does like 90% of the work and there is a ton of leveraging going on in the entrance. It wouldn't shock me if he has some back issues from it.

 

[millyskate]

Sure, there are absolutely aspects of the complete lift itself that are very pleasing. BUT, literally nothing you mentioned in bold has to do with complexity of entrance...

I also disagree that there is no hoisting going on. Guillaume is hoisting her into every position, regardless of how ethereal Gabby can make being thrown around look. He does like 90% of the work and there is a ton of leveraging going on in the entrance. It wouldn't shock me if he has some back issues from it.

I guess I'd missed the point where the difficulty in the entry has to be the effort of the female skater? (and I say this entirely non facetiously).

 

[starrynight]

P/C have another quad to go. But they won't do an egyptian or Irish FD to prove to anyone that they can do it.

At the end of the day I think P/C will do what they feel they need to do to win. For it to be the case that their style remains the same through to 2022, it relies on ice dancing judges agreeing to back the same fashion of choreography and style for 8 years straight.

If you look back at previous Olympic cycles you can see that ice dance is constantly evolving. I don't really believe that now is the time the discipline will remain static for two quads.

I actually think that P/C eventually doing a free dance very different to the ones they do now is actually almost a certainty before the 2022 Olympics. Personally, I think that P/C have the personalities to do something quirky and I'd be interested to see it happen.

 

[Golden1]

Isn't that what you are doing ? criticizing them for doing "the same" ? Really, I don't understand the V/M ubers sometimes. You use against P/C all the arguments that were used against V/M at the time. Wasn't that annoying enough to hear that before ?
Method : Find the best skaters, use those arguments. Find the next best skaters, repeat. It's getting tiring.

I will never understand this "uber" thing. Why are V/M fans posting in a thread about an article covering their favorite skater "ubers" and P/C fans vigorously defending their favorite skaters aren't?

My favorite quote of this article is this:

"I got carried away with that in the past. It wasn't helpful. It actually kind of robbed me of what I love most about this sport — enjoying skating with Tessa."

I really think you can see this mindset since their comeback. Their partnership seems to be even stronger than before. I also love that they picked the music they connected to, created a program they loved and were willing to make the changes necessary to (hopefully) win. Their drive, dedication and commitment towards their partnership and sport is really inspiring.
Personally I enjoy the changes. The new ending with Scott's hands going up during the lift might be cheesy but it fits the occasion and music and could create an awesome Olympic moment.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

I guess I'd missed the point where the difficulty in the entry has to be the effort of the female skater? (and I say this entirely non facetiously).

There are imbalances for certain aspects of the lift/level, since the female is generally the lifted partner. It can be a defacto thing. The ISU guidelines discuss this in the difficult position and extra features language for getting Level 4: Only one hand/arm lift used to lift, hold, and set down the lifted partner. If the lifting partner is using more than one hand/arm, it's likely because the lifted partner can't do it without that support.

I think this is the distinguishing feature of V/M's lifts (and some of Chock/Bates lifts). A lot of the difficult positions for entry are placed on the lifting partner: one foot position, spread eagle position. But the other example and a lot of the entry features like one hand/arm with no other contact requires the lifted partner to have significant, independent strength. Tessa is able to back flip into a lift with only a slight touch from a single hand of Scott, and she doesn't make that look difficult.

Gabby and Guillaume have oodles of style. Gabby is able to do difficult poses wonderfully, but I don't find her particularly impressive with entrances and exits -especially when we're talking about some of these very athletic and acrobatic moves.

 

[Anyasnake]

I will never understand this "uber" thing. Why are V/M fans posting in a thread about an article covering their favorite skater "ubers" and P/C fans vigorously defending their favorite skaters aren't?

Both of what you said aren't "ubers". OTOH, finding arguments that are not true in order to reassure oneself, keep a certain narrative going, by bringing one skater down (unrightfully) seems a bit odd to me. But on the forums, these people are limited thanks to the moderators, if you go on twitter, it's another story. Here at least, people are interested in figure skating (I'm speaking for every "ubers" of every skaters of course).
I don't know, I just think you can appreciate both teams without putting one down.

 

[dramagrrl]

Hahaha! Let me see... Mahler and Gazunov pieces "harder to skate" compared to Moonlight Sonata... Hummm So funny! Poor Beethoven!
So "V&M could easily do a successful program to moonlight sonata"? LOL! They were so far not able to deliver a Moulin Rouge program great enough to beat P/C Moonlight Sonata... And this is a fact !

Yes, I will add my name to the list of people who think V&M could easily - very easily - do a successful program to Moonlight Sonata.

Also, no, it is not a "fact" that V&M were "so far not able to deliver a MR program great enough to beat P/C Moonlight Sonata" - it is a fact that V&M were, so far, unable to deliver a Moulin Rouge program that one panel of subjective judges at one competition deemed worthy of beating P/C's version of Moonlight Sonata. The two programs have only gone head-to-head at a single competition this season and you cannot legitimately compare scores from other events where they were not competing head-to-head and were judged by entirely different panels, tech specialists, etc. to each other (in case you were about to haul out the "But OMG, P/C's FD has the world record and V/M's sooo doesn't!" argument ).

 

[maglia]

The two programs have only gone head-to-head at a single competition this season and you cannot legitimately compare scores from other events where they were not competing head-to-head and were judged by entirely different panels, tech specialists, etc. to each other (in case you were about to haul out the "But OMG, P/C's FD has the world record and V/M's sooo doesn't!" argument ).

From time to time, you should watch the Canadian channel CBC and listen to its famous figure skating commentator and former famous Canadian skater namely Kurt Browning.

"Different judges, different competitions, you can say that but the system was designed and build to make comparisons" reported Kurt Browning on CBC just before the GPF free dance.

I never talked about WRs. As you want to address this topic, just keep in mind P/C broke FD & overall WRs 7 times this season during ISU int'l competitions, including at GPF (202+ overall) while V/M never reached, so far and at least once, 120 points at the FD and 200 points overall. This is not even an opinion but just a fact.

 

[dramagrrl]

From time to time, you should watch the Canadian channel CBC and listen to its famous figure skating commentator and former famous Canadian skater namely Kurt Browning.

"Different judges, different competitions, you can say that but the system was designed and build to make comparisons" reported Kurt Browning on CBC just before the GPF free dance.

Considering that I am Canadian and CBC has done most of our skating coverage for the past several years, I am more than familiar with Kurt's commentary and watch CBC's skating coverage a lot more than "time to time". Kurt is probably my favourite skater of all time, and I have been watching skating for thirty years now. That doesn't mean I consider his commentary the gospel or believe everything he says on TV is true. He has actually said quite a few things during his CBC commentary that I would consider complete nonsense, and the statement you bolded above is one such thing.

Since I don't believe in comparing scores across competitions, the "fact" about the WRs that P/C have managed to accumulate this season is irrelevant to me. I just brought up that point because it is an argument P/C ubers love to bring up whenever any sort of V/M vs. P/C comparison specific to this season comes along.

 

[Vash01]

V&M are not skating to Moonlight Sonata. They never did in the past. That's the reality of it. It's not like they can't skate to it, but they didn't choose that music. P&C did, and made it theirs. Ultimately it will boil down to who delivers under the Olympic pressure, so this discussion about V&M and Moonlight Sonata seems meaningless to me.

 

[maglia]

Considering that I am Canadian and CBC has done most of our skating coverage for the past several years, I am more than familiar with Kurt's commentary and watch CBC's skating coverage a lot more than "time to time". Kurt is probably my favourite skater of all time, and I have been watching skating for thirty years now. That doesn't mean I consider his commentary the gospel or believe everything he says on TV is true. He has actually said quite a few things during his CBC commentary that I would consider complete nonsense, and the statement you bolded above is one such thing.

Since I don't believe in comparing scores across competitions, the "fact" about the WRs that P/C have managed to accumulate this season is irrelevant to me. I just brought up that point because it is an argument P/C ubers love to bring up whenever any sort of V/M vs. P/C comparison specific to this season comes along.

Kurt Browning is of course completely right when he says "the system was designed and build to make comparisons". This was actually one of the main argument to promote it and get it approved by all federations! Skaters can now get a detailed score breakdown and they use it to compare and evaluate their performances, changes, etc between competitions. All skaters fight to get "Season Bests". This season, technical panels and judges awarded scores in sync with delivered performances. One can see some little mistakes here and there but in general, things are quite consistent.

 

[maglia]

Since I don't believe in comparing scores across competitions, the "fact" about the WRs that P/C have managed to accumulate this season is irrelevant to me. I just brought up that point because it is an argument P/C ubers love to bring up whenever any sort of V/M vs. P/C comparison specific to this season comes along.

Coming back to the WRs topic you wanted to address...
You're telling us that Season Bests are fake, score comparisons are fake, etc, right?
Accumulating WRs is definitely relevant for all skaters! Be sure of one thing, being the very first couple to break the bar of 200 pts was among the major goals to reach this season for V/M (and P/C as well). You dramatically underestimate the power of numbers. When P/C broke the 200 pts at the Cup of China, this information was broadcast worldwide as a major event in the ice dance community. When P/C broke the D/W FD WR at Worlds in Boston in 2016, everyone immediately noticed it. Coaches, skaters and even former skaters like Charlie White reported it.

 

[MsZem]

Coming back to the WRs topic you wanted to address...
You're telling us that Season Bests are fake, score comparisons are fake, etc, right?
Accumulating WRs is definitely relevant for all skaters! Be sure of one thing, being the very first couple to break the bar of 200 pts was among the major goals to reach this season for V/M (and P/C as well). You dramatically underestimate the power of numbers. When P/C broke the 200 pts at the Cup of China, this information was broadcast worldwide as a major event in the ice dance community. When P/C broke the D/W FD WR at Worlds in Boston in 2016, everyone immediately noticed it. Coaches, skaters and even former skaters like Charlie White reported it.

Cizeron on the subject of records:

A record in ice dance seems a bit subjective to me, because you cannot really compare because of the changes in the points system. It is more a personal record and a sign that we are on the right track. It is a bit difficult, because we always want to progress and it gets harder to chase after the little points that are left to take. As a result, the work becomes more and more detailed.

See also here.

 

[Twilight1]

WR are based on subjective scoring. The only comparison is based on technical elements and guess what they are equal.

So for all the crazy ubers going on about who is best... technically their short and free are on the same footing.

It is 100% based on what they do on the days they compete and how the judges view the material.

And while I do love MS... it will always and forever be associated to Gordeeva & Grinkov for me. Like Bolero and Torvill & Dean.

 

[maglia]

Cizeron on the subject of records:

See also here.

Not surprising, Guillaume Cizeron is a very modest and humble person. Even if he beats 20 WRs, he will never claim he did!
Anyhow, he's right. We all know BV are subject to revisions hence it's a bit subjective but still, in a given season, it's a goal for all skaters to get SB which potentially means WR for the top teams. You should see Guillaume's happiness in the K&C when they broke the 200 pts after the free dance at the Cup of China. Still in the K&C, he says a few words and one can understand he was really hoping for this to happen given their hard work and their performance. Furthermore, they obviously make comparisons when he talks about "a sign that we are on the right track".

 

[IloveFS]

Is this a V&M fan thread?

If it is not, I would rather see P&C win their First (may be the only) OGM, than see V&M win their second.

The pressure to execute every element perfectly will be tremendous on both teams.

Carolla5501 - Shouldn't the best team win the Olympics? The team that skates the two best performances. It should be irrelevant whether VM have previous Olympic medals OR PC currently hold the record in dance.

 

[IloveFS]

I know they'll do Beijing 2022, not sure after that though.

VM are also young enough that Beijing 2022 isn't completely out of the question in terms of their ages. If they win the OGM, why wouldn't they continue for 4 more years?

 

[IloveFS]

I think if P&C were not in the competition, V&M wouldn't have to do a thing to their program. But P&C are and unless they have a major stuff up at the Olympics, V&M will have to take the silver. P&C are just sublime.

Neither team is guaranteed the OGM. Please don't count your chickens until they hatch.

 

[Japanfan]

Carolla5501 - Shouldn't the best team win the Olympics? The team that skates the two best performances. It should be irrelevant whether VM have previous Olympic medals OR PC currently hold the record in dance.

Yes, but should is the operative word. Ice dance has always been the discipline that is most suspect in terms of corrupt judging (just don't get me started on the judging of FS in Sochi generally).