Virtue, Moir hope revamped programs will lift them to Olympic gold

[IloveFS]

I feel like it's a repeat of 4 years ago in that for the games V/M don't have one of their best programs. Last time lots of blame on the coaches favoring D/W. that can't be true this time. Maybe they will win but a better program from Day 1 would have made it easier.

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[IloveFS]

I agree with you that they should have selected different music. I think that they wanted to skate to a piece of music that they like AND shows their versatility. I think that VM could easily skate both of PC's programs but I am not convinced that PC could perform VM's performances. Maybe it's a good idea for them to swap programs for the exhibition. I'd love to see that!

 

[Japanfan]

I feel like it's a repeat of 4 years ago in that for the games V/M don't have one of their best programs. Last time lots of blame on the coaches favoring D/W. that can't be true this time. Maybe they will win but a better program from Day 1 would have made it easier.

I agree with this. 'Moonlight Sonata' is just the superior program IMO. Clean to clean, I think they win. Though the SD could factor in to that. I don't recall P/C's SD, but do think that Tessa and Scott's was sublime.

They are known to be innovative, and it appears that much of their motivation for returning was to explore new dimensions of dance.

However, I don't know that their FP is the best choice for the Olympics. In years to come they may look back and say "What were we thinking?"

I think that VM could easily skate both of PC's programs but I am not convinced that PC could perform VM's performances.

ITA with this. As I've said in this or other threads, V/M are the superior skaters.
But, will it make any difference to the judges of the FD?

 

[debo]

I agree with this. 'Moonlight Sonata' is just the superior program IMO. Clean to clean, I think they win. Though the SD could factor in to that. I don't recall P/C's SD, but do think that Tessa and Scott's was sublime.

They are known to be innovative, and it appears that much of their motivation for returning was to explore new dimensions of dance.

However, I don't know that their FP is the best choice for the Olympics. In years to come they may look back and say "What were we thinking?"



ITA with this. As I've said in this or other threads, V/M are the superior skaters.
But, will it make any difference to the judges of the FD?

I’m not clear here. You said P/C have the superior fd in you opinion, but V/M are the superior skaters. So if you were one of the judges, would it make a difference to you and how would you score it? (Assuming both skate clean).

 

[ohashibiles]

ITA with this. As I've said in this or other threads, V/M are the superior skaters.

They should be, they a lot older and have many more years of experience. Papadakis & Cizeron are at an extreme disadvantage in that sense, it is amazing that they are already so competitive with the much older Virtue & Moir who are one of the best teams of all time, and have had the advantage of many more years to develop. Imagine what Papadakis & Cizeron given another 8-10 years of development will look like. They are definitely better than V&M in 2008 or 2009 were, about the same point in their careers P&C are now.

 

[Japanfan]

I’m not clear here. You said P/C have the superior fd in you opinion, but V/M are the superior skaters. So if you were one of the judges, would it make a difference to you and how would you score it? (Assuming both skate clean).

If I was a judge I think it would make a difference to me - where, I'm not sure - skating skills, other PCS? Superior skating doesn't necessarily translate into a higher tech score or higher levels or more transitions (but OTOH can do all of the above).

But programs should be judged according to how they are skated on the day. My concern is that P&C's choice of a beautiful classical piece will give them an advantage just because it's beautiful and classical. Much as I adore and root for V&M, I think Moulin Rouge may not have been the wisest choice for the Olympics, especially given how beautifully they can do classical (i.e Mahler, Valse Triste).

 

[debo]

Thanks, and I get from this that if a judge you’re very open to voting for P/C given the second paragraph.

For me the issue is I don’t like the music from Moulin Rouge but of course recognize V/M great skating. So if I were a judge should I allow the music to affect my decision or put my “bias” aside? Or is that completely wrong because of course the music is driving, dictating the very movements of the dance to a great extent.

I don’t know if there’s any guidance for a judge in this situation.

 

[Japanfan]

Thanks, and I get from this that if a judge you’re very open to voting for P/C given the second paragraph.

I would hope to judge based on the skating itself, not because of classical versus modern music.

For me the issue is I don’t like the music from Moulin Rouge but of course recognize V/M great skating. So if I were a judge should I allow the music to affect my decision or put my “bias” aside? Or is that completely wrong because of course the music is driving, dictating the very movements of the dance to a great extent.

I would think a judge would have to put bias for one piece of music aside - music choices can't be the thing that drive a judge's decision. I just worry that 'Moonlight 'Sonata' will do just that!

I don’t know if there’s any guidance for a judge in this situation.

I would hope that it would be to judge the performances as they are skated on the day, according to the specific criteria.

 

[annie_mg]

I think that VM could easily skate both of PC's programs but I am not convinced that PC could perform VM's performances.

V/M could definitely skate P/C's short dance, but they could never dance the Moonilight Sonata with such fluidity. It's just not who they are. I cannot imagine P/C doing one of those "ta-da" acrobatic lifts that V/M do either. And that's not because they aren't technically capable of them, but because they simply don't suit them.Both teams are excellent but both have different strengths.

 

[maglia]

V/M could definitely skate P/C's short dance, but they could never dance the Moonilight Sonata with such fluidity. It's just not who they are. I cannot imagine P/C doing one of those "ta-da" acrobatic lifts that V/M do either. And that's not because they aren't technically capable of them, but because they simply don't suit them.Both teams are excellent but both have different strengths.

I fully agree. No chance for V/M to skate Moonlight Sonata with P/C style. Marie-France actually explained that. Both couples have different strengths and different artistic goals.

And the same applies to the SD. In any case, regardless of the music and short or free dance, the point is that P/C and V/M have completely different approaches and visions of ice dance

 

[starrynight]

The rather frustrating thing about dance (particularly in the case of lifts) is that the technical levels i.e. level 4 has been totally maxed out. There's no extra points to be gained from acrobatics (ta daa moments) because you can get a level 4 with substantially less technical difficulty and there's no level 5. Which explains why some people get super frustrated at lift scoring which I think is a big part of the VM vs PC rivalry. It's why most conversations end up coming back to the lifts.

The thing about ice dance is that it is not like singles or pairs where there is a clearly identifiable way of increasing technical difficulty. You can do a jump no one has done before. Add a quad. In ice dance the level of difficulty is capped by how high the scoring system goes and it's maxed out at the moment and in my opinion obviously so. It's sort of like if singles skating judging only went as high as triples and quads couldn't be rewarded with extra points (even though some people were doing them). It's just then in the judges hands to distribute GOE any which way they want.

Overall, I feel I'm stuck in a bit of a time warp/holding pattern with this rivalry. I sincerely hope that next time there is a big rivalry that both teams aren't coached by the same coaches. I feel like it limits the likelihood of one team trying to slam dunk the other (as the coaches are kind of protecting both their teams and hoping to avoid favouritism) Gosh even VM and PC's FD costumes are really quite similar in style - long sheer sleeves, clean lines, no embellishments.

 

[maglia]

The rather frustrating thing about dance (particularly in the case of lifts) is that the technical levels i.e. level 4 has been totally maxed out. There's no extra points to be gained from acrobatics (ta daa moments) because you can get a level 4 with substantially less technical difficulty and there's no level 5. Which explains why some people get super frustrated at lift scoring which I think is a big part of the VM vs PC rivalry. It's why most conversations end up coming back to the lifts.

The thing about ice dance is that it is not like singles or pairs where there is a clearly identifiable way of increasing technical difficulty. You can do a jump no one has done before. Add a quad. In ice dance the level of difficulty is capped by how high the scoring system goes and it's maxed out at the moment and in my opinion obviously so. It's sort of like if singles skating judging only went as high as triples and quads couldn't be rewarded with extra points (even though some people were doing them).

Well, pairs are there for jumps and acrobatic stuff. Ice Dance is something else to me. And it goes back once again to the different visions of ice dance. I really love programs where all technical elements are thought and performed to magnify the choreography. This is a real challenge and all the beauty of ice dance. Too much acrobatic stuff would definitely kill this and I have sometimes the feeling that some acrobatic moves (or pretended to be as such) are introduced to compensate the lack or the difficulty to merge elements into the artistic part.
As for the qualification of "acrobatic", I would be quite cautious as some spectacular acrobatic moves are sometimes much easier to perform than people may think!

 

[butyrskafanatic]

The rather frustrating thing about dance (particularly in the case of lifts) is that the technical levels i.e. level 4 has been totally maxed out. There's no extra points to be gained from acrobatics (ta daa moments) because you can get a level 4 with substantially less technical difficulty and there's no level 5. Which explains why some people get super frustrated at lift scoring which I think is a big part of the VM vs PC rivalry. It's why most conversations end up coming back to the lifts.

This is true but in fairness this probably helped V&M in their rivalry with D&W as D&W had insanely difficult lifts which couldnt be fully rewarded in points under IJS.

 

[maglia]

(...) even VM and PC's FD costumes are really quite similar in style - long sheer sleeves, clean lines, no embellishments.

LOL! Please, how can you say something like that? I guess you know Guillaume designs all P/C costumes and he would NEVER design nor wear the type of costumes Scott usually wears! No way!

 

[starrynight]

This is true but in fairness this probably helped V&M in their rivalry with D&W as D&W had insanely difficult lifts which couldnt be fully rewarded in points under IJS.

I think Davis/White did an extraordinary job at legitimising the sporting aspect of ice dance and approaching the discipline like athletes. It's crazy to me that what they did is awarded the same level of difficulty as some of the current level 4 lifts. But as I said, there's no level 5.

I think ice dance took a huge leap forward in its technical standard over about a 6 year period or so from about 2008 to 2014.

 

[Anyasnake]

Well, everyone and its narrative... I'll cut it short for you :

V/M will never do Moonlight Sonata as well as P/C. Vice-Versa for Moulin Rouge. But that is not even the point, stop convicing yourself of anything.

The narrative : "V/M are the superior skaters but P/C have the better programs"... come on. Hear all commentators praising BOTH their "incredible" skating techniques. Plus one can prefer MR over MS. Apples and oranges. I tend to think that one prefers the way a team is skating, that would be accurate.

In their first Olympic cycle, V/M did : Valse Triste, Umbrellas, Mahler (out of the box = Pink Floyd). Today you would consider that "same style" (I don't, but with the V/M uber logic this is where I'm at).
P/C are still in their 1st Olympic cycle (people forget that) and went out of the box last year (and got hammered for it until worlds). Almost exactly like V/M path in a way ! (Pink Floyd was amazing... but not as well received).
So there is no comparaison in sense of style/versatily when you have the same path and 2 Olympics cycle less ?
So V/M ubers, drop this narrative. Pointless.

Lifts, lifts, lifts : read the rules, find what you can do to get your level 4, but make it accurate please. I don't need to see a triple-backflip-twist-standing on his thumb only-type of lift if it does not make sense.

About who will win gold : the one that skate better on the day. No weird pattern or choctaw, every turn clean, excellent execution, twizzle impeccable and getting everyone to forget you are actually skating.

 

[ohashibiles]

This title exemplifies their epic determination. They may lose the Olympic Gold to Papadakis & Cizeron but they are not going to give up without a fight. Which is a hallmark of their careers, always giving their all and never giving up the battle. What legends!

 

[Rafter]

They should be, they a lot older and have many more years of experience. Papadakis & Cizeron are at an extreme disadvantage in that sense, it is amazing that they are already so competitive with the much older Virtue & Moir who are one of the best teams of all time, and have had the advantage of many more years to develop. Imagine what Papadakis & Cizeron given another 8-10 years of development will look like. They are definitely better than V&M in 2008 or 2009 were, about the same point in their careers P&C are now.

Uh, Tessa Virtue was 18 years old in 2008. Scott Moir was 20. Aren’t P/C currently 22 and 23? In oother words, Papadakis is 5 years older now than Virtue was in 2008.

 

[Rafter]

V/M could definitely skate P/C's short dance, but they could never dance the Moonilight Sonata with such fluidity. It's just not who they are. I cannot imagine P/C doing one of those "ta-da" acrobatic lifts that V/M do either. And that's not because they aren't technically capable of them, but because they simply don't suit them.Both teams are excellent but both have different strengths.

To echo what Sandra Bezic said in a TSL interview, Virtue and Moir did their fluid, floaty, ethereal free dance in 2010. I’m not surprised they wanted to do something completely different this year.

As for P/Cs Moonlight Sonata, IMO it’s their least interesting FD of the last 3-4 years. There aren’t enough highlights in it.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

To echo what Sandra Bezic said in a TSL interview, Virtue and Moir did their fluid, floaty, ethereal free dance in 2010. I’m not surprised they wanted to do something completely different this year.

Especialy as it didnt go over that well with the judges or even the fans that year. The consensus seems to be that they were robbed in the OD of being closer to D&W or perhaps even winning that phase, but Davis & White clearly won the FD and the gold, despite that V&M skated their FD excellently. The program just wasnt enough for most.

 

[IloveFS]

I fully agree. No chance for V/M to skate Moonlight Sonata with P/C style. Marie-France actually explained that. Both couples have different strengths and different artistic goals.

And the same applies to the SD. In any case, regardless of the music and short or free dance, the point is that P/C and V/M have completely different approaches and visions of ice dance

With respect, I totally disagree. Look at their 2010 Olympic program as an example (and btw, they won with that program). They are more than capable of skating to any genre of music and they are the most versatile ice dance team ever. I much prefer VM to PC and I think VM will leave much more of a legacy than PC. I much prefer DW (even though they are retired), WP, GP, CL, SS, HD to PC as well. I just don't like their vision of ice dance or their style.

 

[ohashibiles]

Uh, Tessa Virtue was 18 years old in 2008. Scott Moir was 20. Aren’t P/C currently 22 and 23? In oother words, Papadakis is 5 years older now than Virtue was in 2008.

Good point, but I was also thinking within their own development curve. Papadakis & Cizeron didnt even win a junior worlds and sort of sucked their first couple years as seniors so they werent instant teen phenoms with an unusually early development track like Virtue & Moir. So within the confines of their own careers they are probably about the same place as Virtue & Moir were on their own development in 2008 and 2009, despite being a year or two older.

 

[MsZem]

Uh, Tessa Virtue was 18 years old in 2008. Scott Moir was 20. Aren’t P/C currently 22 and 23? In oother words, Papadakis is 5 years older now than Virtue was in 2008.

V/M were wonderful in 2008 and 2009. But I don't think they could have skated the Mozart FD that P/C did in their second senior season, at age 19.

That said, the two teams are very different in terms of style now, so the discussion of who could do the others' programs is really irrelevant. I mean, neither of them could do Cappellini and Lanotte's programs, and that doesn't make Anna and Luca the superior skaters.

 

[skatingguy]

Good point, but I was also thinking within their own development curve. Papadakis & Cizeron didnt even win a junior worlds and sort of sucked their first couple years as seniors so they werent instant teen phenoms with an unusually early development track like Virtue & Moir. So within the confines of their own careers they are probably about the same place as Virtue & Moir were on their own development in 2008 and 2009, despite being a year or two older.

Papadakis were 2nd in 2013 Junior Worlds - sort of like Virtue & Moir in 2005 - and the next season Papadakis & Cizeron skated senior and Virtue & Moir skated junior and won Junior Worlds. In 2015 Papadakis & Cizeron won the World Championships, the 2nd season in senior competion.

 

[Anyasnake]

In any other words, yes, both teams have very similar career debut in Seniors. Both have been extremely criticized for winning too early. But why waiting for your turn when you have that much talent...
Also, even without winning it all in Juniors like some other teams (who were or are now ranked lower), both were praised for the technique and most importantly, the Star quality/X-factor. Something you cannot teach.

 

[yurokis40]

V&M could easily do a successful program to moonlight sonata, after all didn't Marina compare them to Gordeeva and Grinkov and I honestly feel it would be a superior program to P&C due to Tessa's Balletic quality plus they skated to harder classical pieces like Mahler and Glazunov , P&Con the other hand would look foolish to attempt something like Moulin Rouge.

 

[Rafter]

Especialy as it didnt go over that well with the judges or even the fans that year. The consensus seems to be that they were robbed in the OD of being closer to D&W or perhaps even winning that phase, but Davis & White clearly won the FD and the gold, despite that V&M skated their FD excellently. The program just wasnt enough for most.

Are you talking about 2014? I’m talking about 2010.

 

[barbk]

P&Con the other hand would look foolish to attempt something like Moulin Rouge.

That's because Moulin Rouge is a sucky piece of music for everyone.

 

[millyskate]

No, they'd manage to capture what edgy means https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrlnJRy1mz4

PS: for anyone wondering if they'd cope with more acrobatic lifts https://youtu.be/TrlnJRy1mz4?t=218 - Gabby's position IMO beats any of the current variations of this being performed, and it has a complex entry + smooth & complex exit too

 

[Anyasnake]

V&M could easily do a successful program to moonlight sonata, after all didn't Marina compare them to Gordeeva and Grinkov and I honestly feel it would be a superior program to P&C due to Tessa's Balletic quality plus they skated to harder classical pieces like Mahler and Glazunov , P&Con the other hand would look foolish to attempt something like Moulin Rouge.

Again, another narative. In terms of music, Moonlight Sonata is NOTHING like Mahler, the interpretation of the music, the feel, is just SO different, so we don't know what V/M will look like with it. Again we don't know what P/C would look like with MR and we don't care because they will never skate to it anyway.