U.S. Pairs 2018 - News & Updates, Part VIII

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Sylvia said:
Jeremy Barrett and Silvia Fontana were coaching lower level pairs in San Jose (I assumed John Zimmerman was with James/Cipres?) -- the 3 Hubbart siblings won Novice silver (Joanna & William) and Intermediate gold (Nick, who is new to pairs this season, with partner Zoe).
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The pewter medalist at Novice (Elle McClellan and Jim Garbutt) also train with the Zimmerman/Fontana/Barrett staff, plus 2017 Novice Pairs Gold Medalist Derrick Griffin (rumored to have a new partner for next season).
 
semogal said:
There is a huge gap between the US pairs and the top international teams. Our teams have some good tricks but don't have the complete package. Partly, that is due to bad luck. Our top teams have all struggled with injuries and illness the last few years. Huge kudos to Haven and Tarah for even coming back after their knee surgeries. But study the protocols from the SP: only FOUR teams received positive GOE on their SBS jumps. Only ONE team had all positive GOE. You don't win international events with messy programs, downgrades and falls. Having said that, I think that if our top teams stay together and stay healthy, (and if a few are willing to make some coaching changes) by 2022 the story might be different.
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You also don't do well at international events just by landing a SBS jump. 3 pairs at Worlds landed a jump with +GOE (and were clean aside from weaker 3 twists) and didn't make it to the LP.

Yes, health issues have affected US pairs. But aside from that, nearly all the US pairs lack in standout pair elements. Several of them can land a jump (not always, but they can do them), but they don't excel in the pair skating. So when they miss the jump (and it happens to everyone), their scores completely fall apart. The Knierims are our only pair that has been able to score well with bigger mistakes.

Looking at the Nationals SP protocols, Stellato/Bartholomay, Denney/Frazier, and Knierim/Knierim were all scored fairly similarly on the 3 twist (7.4 to 8.2), which isn't correct and wouldn't have happened in an international event. S/B's twist is below average against today's international pair skating standards, while S/K clearly have one of the best twists in the world that routinely gets some +3s internationally. D/F's twist is somewhere in between those two. I'm not sure why the U.S. scored their teams so similarly as if they are all on the same level, and I was surprised by some of the scores in the SP. Even Kayne/O'Shea got a few +1s on their twist, and they have the weakest twist in the world among Grand Prix level teams. (They also somehow got +GOE on their throw, which was small with her chest down and slightly two footed).

Minimizing mistakes is important, but it shouldn't be the only focus. Tarasova/Morozov have had a lot of international success lately, but don't skate clean much. Sui/Han tend to have jump issues and still win major titles. Savchenko/Massot are a favorite for the Olympic title, but have had plenty of mistakes. These teams are separating themselves with very high quality elements/skating more so than lights-out skating. The U.S. should encourage more risk taking and less small and safe pair skating that may result in a solid landings, but won't stand out at all in an international field. Many pairs are not physically capable of big, explosive elements, but you can still create a culture that values it. (Russia and China clearly value this). One way to do this would be to not give such similar scores to twists and throws that are of differing qualities.
 
The US doesn't have many options for the second Worlds spot, and based on these SP scores, it looks like Kayne/O'Shea might end up there. This is an interesting situation given their international history. They likely would need a personal best SP score just to qualify to the free skate. Their current PB of 62 is from many seasons ago, and it is the only time in their career that they have ever even broken 60. The cutoff last season was 62, and it wouldn't be surprising if it's a little higher this season, especially since there's another Chinese pair entry. Stellato/Bartholomay are in a similar boat, with no 60+ scores in their competitive history.

Even just a couple seasons ago, we never had to think of such things because it was so easy to make it to the LP at an Olympics or Worlds. You basically just had to be breathing and you would get in. In 2017, there were pairs that skated great and still didn't get in. If this worldwide depth keeps up, it would be great if they could expand the LP field to 20 pairs.
 
stjeaskategym said:
The Knierims were 4 points from top 5 at Worlds and they didn't have their quad back yet. They aren't just a "cute couple", they are a high quality pair team that is worthy of respect and appreciation. You seem to be placing blame on the Fed for not providing some magical formula to help your personal favorites improve.
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And obviously, the Knierims are your faves. Kudos to them and to you. They are going to the Olympics. :) And nope I'm not 'placing blame on the Fed for not providing some magical formula to help my personal favorites improve.' I'm actually interested in the U.S. pairs discipline as a whole improving. I like and respect all of the teams. I enjoy watching pairs in general. It's always been my favorite discipline to watch.

Continue advocating for your personal faves. :watch:

Obviously the Knierims have improved every season. I am not saying they are 'cute' in a dismissive way. I enjoyed getting to know them better through the series of video features USFS has produced this season. I think they are great people and good skaters who've contributed a lot, but I'm not that moved by their skating. Sure they have good lifts, great power on throws and the spectacular throw twists (again by virtue of Sappenfield's admirable expertise, related to techniques she learned as part of a trapeze artist family). Alexa is a great pairs girl and Chris complements her well. I was more excited for them when they initially paired up, but they've never fully grabbed my interest. There's no way to tell what it is about skaters that will grab you, because it's not always based on whether or not they are champions who win all the time.

Obviously U.S. pairs in general have faced setbacks over the past several seasons due to injury and illness. The Knierims have been the U.S. team with the best record, and it's laudable how they came back at Worlds last year. As I said, the reasons why some skaters grab any fan and others don't, is just what it is. That's why I appreciated Brooke Castile's commentary because it offered great insights and perspective on all of the teams' strengths and weaknesses. Good luck to them all. I'm not going to try to change how I feel about teams that move me. I'm just going to keep watching, appreciating all of the skaters, rooting for my faves, and hoping the sport will change for the better and for the benefit of all the skaters.

Another huge problem for U.S. pairs is the politics and rep. Some of our pairs have done well in competitions over the past several years and still been low-balled in the scores. So it's a combination of bad luck, individual weaknesses, lack of political rep, the health issues, and then it takes time rebuilding in coming back. But since U.S. pairs do not have good reputation (buzz), and the fed doesn't really understand how to politick, it's going to take an exceptional pair coming along making inroads competitively to turn things around internationally. Actually, S-K/K were supposed to be that team and they made important inroads with their quad twist, but then they faltered slightly, and then Alexa's illness happened. Previously, it was supposed to be Denney/Coughlin, and before that Yankowskas/Coughlin, and before that McLaughlin/Brubaker, etc.

Some of the other current pairs could build over time, but it's going to take more than what's been happening to this point. We had a bit of success with a few teams who got into 6th and 7th place post-2002, but it was never sustained either due to injuries, other setbacks, break-ups, retirements, and growing depth internationally.
 
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I don’t like to coronate any skater(s) at any given time, but, IMO, this pairs’ comp is an uphill battle for anyone not named Alexa and Chris. Many crazy, quirky things could always happen in a free skate - and of course, have, but if they can just basically keep it together, I think they are on their way... Ok, so, now watch… KaBOOM! :slinkaway :saint:
 
^^^^ I think no matter what happens Knierims are the choice.

Going by the criteria of "body of work" they did for ladies earlier:

2017 Worlds: Knierims 10th, D&F didn't even qualify for free
2017 GPF : No one
2017 Nats: Knierims injured, everyone else: yawn
2017 4CC: Knierims the highest, too tired to look where D&F and C&L ended up.
 
Wow.... S-D&B won the technical portion...

Refresh my drink... how did Knierims get a +GOE on a twist that landed on 2 feet?

Man.. ADDING BOTH their jumping passes.... they got a grand score of 1.63 FOR BOTH JUMPING PASSES.... Wow.... (add in 1 point deduction for a fall and we're looking at a score of 0.63 for 2 passes)

I LOVE THEM to pieces but I think its a disservice to give them 135...an international panel would give that about 118.

I ended up liking K&O more than I thought I would... I do think usfsa hosed S-D&B tho. At least we will see them for 4CC.

Cain &LeDuc redeemed themselves here too. And they will punch a ticket to 4CC! No Oly members are going, right?

They look different than all the other teams which I adore.

But saying this is a team of singles skills? Child.......

@clairecloutier email me your review when done. :)
 
I think the podium is right, even if the scores are divorced from reality. From all the pairs, I enjoyed watching Stellato/Bartholomay the most. She is so expressive with wonderful carriage.

The Knierims have the power, speed and explosiveness that the rest of the teams lacks even with crappy SBS jumps (which is the case for many of the teams here, regardless). Kayne & O'Shea are fine and charismatic performers, but their elements lack explosiveness, which holds them back internationally. Their throws and twist are really small, and I think her skating skills in particular are the weakest of any skater on this podium. Still, the top two teams should be proud of how far they've come after surgery.
 
Deanna Stellato is a goddess. I hope she continues on in pairs with Nate for another season or two. I was happy with Kayne and O'Shea's skate, (not perfect naturally this is American pairs) but they've come a long way after her injury. As for the Knierems, while they're not my favorite, they did enough to squeak out a win IMO.

Looking forward to learning which teams are assigned to 4CC and worlds.
 
As was obvious Alexa and Chris did not want to back their way in, and I think USFS did not want to have to name them to the sole Olympic spot either. Alexa was very emotional knowing they did not skate their best. No matter, they were over-scored slightly to ensure their victory. I thought maybe 130, but the judges gave them 135+.

Andrea Joyce should not have stuck the microphone in Alexa's face right afterward. They need to allow skaters time to catch their breaths and pull themselves together before sticking a microphone in their faces and asking them questions designed to make them cry or become visibly emotional. Kudos to Alexa for her honest reactions later to Rusty Kath and during the press conference. Chris was honest and gracious too, as were K/O and S-D/B. I think K/O's programs are very good this season (my favorites of U.S. pairs programs this season, along with D/F's programs and C/T's fp). K/O should probably keep one or both of their programs for next season in order to build them, and to take more time working on improving aspects of their skating during the off-season, rather than trying to learn new programs.

Good on S-D/B for bringing back their Hallelujah sp. I like that they went for the quad throw in the fp. They were in a good position to do so, and despite the fall they came back well. Deanna is amazing.

It was nice to see C/L come back strong and pull up to 4th position. They showed spunk, fight and determination. I don't particularly care much for either of their programs this season, but they ended up making the fp work somewhat better than their sp -- they maybe should have kept their last year's sp since it was so similar. The issue for both C/L and S-D/B was trying to up their program difficulty in only their second season together -- a pressure-filled Olympic season no less.
 
U.S. FIGURE SKATING ANNOUNCES PAIRS NOMINATION FOR 2018 U.S. OLYMPIC FIGURE SKATING TEAM
(1/7/18) - U.S. Figure Skating announced today the pair who will compete at the Olympic Winter Games PyeongChang 2018 as part of the U.S. Olympic Figure Skating Team.

The pairs team is Alexa Scimeca-Knierim and Chris Knierim.

Alexa Scimeca-Knierim and Chris Knierim are the 2018 U.S. champions. They won their first U.S. title in 2015, and are the only U.S. pair to compete a quadruple twist. In 2015, they were the first U.S. pair to qualify for the Grand Prix Final since 2007. Although they missed the 2016-17 season due to illness, they have earned the highest U.S. finish at each of their international assignments since their return to competition at the 2017 ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships.

Alternates for the 2018 Olympic Team have been named as Tarah Kayne and Danny O’Shea (first alternate), Deanna Stellato and Nathan Bartholomay (second alternate), and Ashley Cain and Timothy LeDuc (third alternate).
 
Spiralgraph said:
Deanna Stellato is a goddess. I hope she continues on in pairs with Nate for another season or two. I was happy with Kayne and O'Shea's skate, (not perfect naturally this is American pairs) but they've come a long way after her injury. As for the Knierems, while they're not my favorite, they did enough to squeak out a win IMO.

Looking forward to learning which teams are assigned to 4CC and worlds.
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At this point Deanna and Nate want to continue. They have no plans to retire.
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
Refresh my drink... how did Knierims get a +GOE on a twist that landed on 2 feet?
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My guess is the judges were looking at the catch and not down at her feet.

Or, they may have just been rewarding K/K for the massive size and explosiveness of the twist and the difficulty in doing a quad. Typical standards for GOE seemed to have been thrown out the window at this event. Stellato/Bartholomay got a couple +3s on their twist that isn't lateral at all and lacks in height. Even Cain/LeDuc got a +3 on their twist. The US is not a pair country with a bunch of elite level twists. The TES for everyone was inflated across the board, but at least it was across the board.

I'm impressed the judges can inflate everyone's scores like that and still be able to keep track of it enough to get the order of placement correct. To me it seems like it would be a bit confusing to drift from typical international scoring and just give out +2s and +3s all over the place, but somehow they keep track of it all.
 
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Stellato is amazing - seriously, I wish she could have come back to skating sooner! She and Bartholomay are such an interesting team, and I just love watching her skate. I'm glad they are continuing after this season, I think they really have potential.

Also intrigued by Kayne/O'Shea; they lack amplitude in their pairs elements and they need some polishing/work on skating skills, but they have a lot of fight.

I'm still hoping that Denney/Frazier and Castelli/Tran can put it all together - especially the latter. They should be so good, but I think at this point if that potential is going to actually be realized, they need a coaching change (which I'm sure many have already said before).
 
lmarie086 said:
Stellato is amazing - seriously, I wish she could have come back to skating sooner! She and Bartholomay are such an interesting team, and I just love watching her skate. I'm glad they are continuing after this season, I think they really have potential.

Also intrigued by Kayne/O'Shea; they lack amplitude in their pairs elements and they need some polishing/work on skating skills, but they have a lot of fight.

I'm still hoping that Denney/Frazier and Castelli/Tran can put it all together - especially the latter. They should be so good, but I think at this point if that potential is going to actually be realized, they need a coaching change (which I'm sure many have already said before).
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Castelli/Tran were marked down on PCS..They were exquisite ...did not get their jumps but the jumps were not messy.
 
I just came across this YT user that has some fancams from the men's & pairs event, including SPs from Denney/Frazier, Stellato/Bartholomay & Cain/LeDuc + FPs from S/B & C/L.
 
Sylvia said:
Pairs SP article that covers the top 10 teams by @clairecloutier with many interesting quotes from the top 3: http://figureskatersonline.com/news...rim-lead-pairs-field-following-short-program/
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@clairecloutier's FS recap article that again covers the top 10 pairs: http://figureskatersonline.com/news...mpionships-get-nominated-to-u-s-olympic-team/

Phil Hersh covered the pairs event for IN (FS recap): http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/06/264370460/back-on-top-knierims-capture-second-us-title
"There is this dark rain cloud over pairs," Kayne said.
...
"We have to prove ourselves," Kayne said. "But it also would be great if people would stop counting us out."
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clairecloutier said:
American pairs teams reflect on state of U.S. pairs skating
http://figureskatersonline.com/news...-teams-reflect-on-state-of-u-s-pairs-skating/

An article I did from Nationals, with quotes from the top 4 teams
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Deanna and Nate so deserved second place. It will be very interesting to see if Tarah and Danny will even get to Worlds since Danny Osheas legal troubles came to a head and he was sentenced to 12 months probation. Most countries will not issue Visas or allow someone to enter another country whilst on Probation which just happened on Dec 27, 2017. Apparently per the public court records At Manatee County Courts he was arrested for serious Charges of DUI, causing an accident with Injury/property damage and leaving the scene of the accident. Based on all the court appearances Danny had to attend perhaps Tarah never had a knee injury and maybe they really were just covering up the court date conflicts since they were around their Grand Prixs. Now that Danny has accepted a plea deal and was sentenced the Big Question is can they travel? even if the probation officer grants permission, a country requiring visas will not issue to someone who has been convicted of a crime and currently on probation. Manatee County Courts can be googled and online records search by just entering OSHEA D all information is public record. When I saw his mug shot in Bradenton Herald after his arrest I was shocked. Manatee County posts everyone's Mug Shot in the paper. DUI's happen often but causing an accident then leaving the scene typically has jail time so he was very lucky to only get 12 months probation. The court case has been open for a couple of years and was scheduled to go to a Jury Trial on January 8, 2018, but since he took the deal he bypassed jail time and now as of December 27, 2017 was sentenced to 12 months probation. Deanna and Nate hopefully will get to go to Worlds if in fact Danny can't travel. His own Coach, Jim Peterson is listed as the person that posted his Bail/Bond. Claire do you know if Danny can travel? This is all public records and I'm shocked that Danny or Tarah never mentioned this because everyone makes mistakes, but this is quite serious and these athletes are suppose to set an example. Deanna and Nate are the nicest people, have integrity and clearly have improved but most of all are stellar examples for young Figure Skaters. What kind of message does it send to young athletes that you can be convicted of a crime, be on probation and oh hey go represent USA at Worlds! How embarrassing for the USA and for US Figure Skating.
 
@harvard39 Probably inappropriate to bring that up, but if that is indeed the correct Danny O'Shea born in 1991 cited in that case, it is a good question.
DUIs are somehow even more idiotic than before in the age of Taxis/Ubers (not to mention skaters probably have money for a cheap hotel or AirBnB if they need it). Especially as a skater, making that kind of mistake is idiotic - you have to travel around the world, and a DUI takes away at least three GPs and two Senior Bs, and possibly future World Championships and Olympics.
From what I've been able to find, he can go to anywhere in the EU (minus the UK), but would be barred from going to Japan and China. For Canada he would have to apply for a special waiver to enter. Therefore, if this indeed the correct Danny O'Shea, the pair won't be able to compete in Beijing 2022 or Worlds in Saitama Japan in 2019. If he does not get the Canadian waiver, he also can't compete at 2020 worlds.

Still, aside from that discussion, you seem like a troll or a Deanna and Nate stan. Danny O'Shea is a name that could forseeably belong to two people born in 1991, so we don't know if it's the same guy. As for being an example - no, I would not want my kids looking up to someone with a DUI - but this information is impossible to find unless you're looking for it - like you apparently were. But - if this is indeed the correct Daniel O'Shea - maybe that's why he hid it: because he knew kids looked up to him and he didn't want to let them or their parents down.
Yes, Deanna and Nate are a good pair and fun to watch, but that's no reason to accuse another pair of being dirty and making their dirty laundry known. That is disgusting. Let them compete on the ice and stop spreading your conspiracy theories about faked injuries and trying to hide this.
 
Willin said:
@harvard39 Probably inappropriate to bring that up, but if that is indeed the correct Danny O'Shea born in 1991 cited in that case, it is a good question.
DUIs are somehow even more idiotic than before in the age of Taxis/Ubers (not to mention skaters probably have money for a cheap hotel or AirBnB if they need it). Especially as a skater, making that kind of mistake is idiotic - you have to travel around the world, and a DUI takes away at least three GPs and two Senior Bs, and possibly future World Championships and Olympics.
From what I've been able to find, he can go to anywhere in the EU (minus the UK), but would be barred from going to Japan and China. For Canada he would have to apply for a special waiver to enter. Therefore, if this indeed the correct Danny O'Shea, the pair won't be able to compete in Beijing 2022 or Worlds in Saitama Japan in 2019. If he does not get the Canadian waiver, he also can't compete at 2020 worlds.

Still, aside from that discussion, you seem like a troll or a Deanna and Nate stan. Danny O'Shea is a name that could forseeably belong to two people born in 1991, so we don't know if it's the same guy. As for being an example - no, I would not want my kids looking up to someone with a DUI - but this information is impossible to find unless you're looking for it - like you apparently were. But - if this is indeed the correct Daniel O'Shea - maybe that's why he hid it: because he knew kids looked up to him and he didn't want to let them or their parents down.
Yes, Deanna and Nate are a good pair and fun to watch, but that's no reason to accuse another pair of being dirty and making their dirty laundry known. That is disgusting. Let them compete on the ice and stop spreading your conspiracy theories about faked injuries and trying to hide this.
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No conspiracy like I said it's all public records and if you review the arrest report and all the court appearances Jim Peterson is listed as the person who has the bond. I've been following the case since I saw Danny's mug shot in the Bradenton Herald. I'm just curious how he will be able to travel and even if he can travel most countries will not issue visas. It's not a concpiracy it's a fact and again Public Record!

Website is www.manateeclerk.org. Go to search court records and enter Oshea for last name and D for first name and open the 1 case listed all the facts are there! Read the arrest report it references he's a figure skater. Read all the court appearance records that reflect Jim Peterson as holding the bond. I just think it's quite interesting that usfsa did not send Deanna and Nate to Worlds when Danny was just sentenced to 12 months of probation! Hmmm great representation for the support!

http://www.manateeclerk.org/DesktopModules/AwsModules/Clericus/PDF.aspx?page=1[/QUOTE]
 
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Danny O'Shea will be allowed to travel obviously. Tarah obviously had a knee injury. Do you think the USFSA would name a team to Worlds and 4CC's without visas properly being in place even if this nonsense was true? This a ridiculous thing to bring up and post on your first post here ever. Moving on......Best of luck to Tarah and Danny and Deanna and Nate at 4CC's.
 
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Ridiculous that you would even bring that up, it looks like it happened many years ago. Everyone makes mistakes, you're obviously some sort of Danarah hater for bringing it up at all.
 
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