The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[VGThuy]

I think you have a really disgusting view. The lift represents conflict ...a fight...not hot monkey sex. It is fine if you do not like them as a team and if you really hate their music and programs. But pls try to keep your head out of the toilet.

The lift starts during the conflict and then transitions into the second position as "Come What May" starts. So the conflict is solved during the lift. And just for you, they emphasize the come in "Come What May".

 

[barbarafan]

The lift starts during the conflict and then transitions into the second position as "Come What May" starts. So the conflict is solved during the lift. And just for you, they emphasize the come in "Come What May".

I hope you heal one day from whatever sends you to those dark ugly places. Have a joyful life.

 

[VGThuy]

I hope you heal one day from whatever sends you to those dark ugly places. Have a joyful life.

And I hope you learn to stop being so squeamish about things just because they're about your faves. I mean what's wrong with "hot monkey sex"? And why did you think of monkeys?

 

[Tak]

I thought the first section was portrayal of the villain(s) in the story. The second part was supposed to be Christian and Satine.

ITA that this dance is not all that easy to understand if you never saw the movie, and apparently even if you know the story there's some confusion about who the characters are. I think this goes back to Nmsis original point - the tone and feel of the 2 parts of the dance are so completely opposite, it's easy to take it as 2 different characters on first viewing.

I think putting in more of a transitional part would make the interpretation easier [for the audience] - maybe they could soften the end of the tango into some kind of sultry, romantic tango instead of an angry, violent one. But I don't know how this would work with the music.

My first choice would still be straight tango to Roxanne.

 

[mollymgr]

The tango is definitely the more powerful piece. It would make sense musically to use it at the end but it doesn't seem to go with story at all that way. W/P used it at the end in their FD from several years ago.

 

[firstflight]

Really?! I’ve read and agreed with multiple posts of both of you over the decades. Way back in fsu days...
You both are known quantities.

Why is one of you trying to pretend to not know how the other person posts at all?

I hope you heal one day from whatever sends you to those dark ugly places. Have a joyful life.

 

[cocotaffy]

I thought the first section was portrayal of the villain(s) in the story. The second part was supposed to be Christian and Satine.

From Scott's scary and utterly threatening faces like he's about to eat her in the beginning of the FD in GPF, I thought so too. He needs to tone it down then because it's confusing as hell.
@VIETgrlTerifa I totally agree with your interpretation of the cunniliftus and what's wrong with that. However, I don't like it because I just don't find it aesthetically pleasing and too much of an obvious "ta-da" type of moment.
Otherwise, I really don't think the judges don't like MR because otherwise there would be a much wider gap between P/C and V/M PCS. The key is TES and GOEs, that's all.
I also don't think MR is harder than MS, this is a bit of a cop out type of explanation. This kind of program is as much V/M's forte as MS is P/C's so they're off on an even ground here. They both play to their strengths. I would even add V/M's SD is in the same tone as their FD, an all out performance with Tessa gyrated like crazy in the opening poses and crowded choreo, so the range this year is not as big for them. Basically, everyone needs to hit their level in the cleanest way possible.
The same goes for the Shibs, as much as I don't completely get what they're going for, the judges don't mind as long as they skate as clean as a whistle otherwise they wouldn't have had a 115 points in SA.

 

[Bigbird]

There's no need to feed the trolls. You do not need to watch the movie to understand what they're portraying on ice. If you've ever fallen in love or had a difficult relationship there's nothing in need of explaining.

 

[allezfred]

The lift starts during the conflict and then transitions into the second position as "Come What May" starts. So the conflict is solved during the lift. And just for you, they emphasize the come in "Come What May".

#ClutchesPearls

 

[lauravvv]

Then they make up during the vagina in face lift (dance imagery of sex...image showing oral) and it's their reconciliation and declaration of love and that come what may they will always love each other.

The lift starts during the conflict and then transitions into the second position as "Come What May" starts. So the conflict is solved during the lift. And just for you, they emphasize the come in "Come What May".

And I hope you learn to stop being so squeamish about things just because they're about your faves. I mean what's wrong with "hot monkey sex"? And why did you think of monkeys?

I don't agree with you about this. I don't have a problem with an ice dancing program showing sex or some separate element representing sex. But in this case the simple fact, as some other posters have pointed out, is that Scott's face is on Tessa's belly in this lift, not between her legs. So I too take this lift as a representation of conflict, not oral sex. Simply someone started with this "crotch lift" thing back when we first saw the lift in their 'Carmen' FD, and other people (mainly the "pearl clutchers" and the most intense Davis/White ubers who just wanted to find something bad in V/M's programs, but some others too - like you, apparently) just went with it without really paying close attention.

In that light, I also don't think that V/M chose the song 'Come What May' or put this lift before and on it's beginning to represent that kind of a "come". Although I understand that you probably didn't even mean it seriously.

 

[Anyasnake]

Excuse me if this is a very weird/dumb question : What is this "pearl clutchers" thing ? I don't understand

 

[mollymgr]

Yeah face to belly makes more sense? The way to a woman’s heart is through her stomach.

 

[Areski]

Excuse me if this is a very weird/dumb question : What is this "pearl clutchers" thing ? I don't understand

Idiom:


To react in a scandalized or mortified manner to once-salacious but now relatively common things, events, situations, etc. Parents should try not to clutch the pearls every time their teenagers come out of their room dressed outrageously—it only makes them want to push the envelope even further. My mother would always clutch her pearls whenever I began telling her about a new boyfriend, so eventually I stopped filling her in altogether.

 

[ice crystal]

Excuse me if this is a very weird/dumb question : What is this "pearl clutchers" thing ? I don't understand

Clutch your pearls (from the Cambridge dictionary): "to behave as if you are very shocked, especially when you show more shock than you really feel in order to show that you think something is morally bad"

 

[lauravvv]

Yeah face to belly makes more sense? The way to a woman’s heart is through her stomach.

Not that it makes more sense, the point was that Scott's face is not between Tessa's legs in this lift like many people keep saying.

 

[skategal]

I took the lift as the height of their conflict and the moment when Christian accepts all of Satine, including her courtesan ways and Satine accepts that she is in love with Christian and submits to the love.

My interpretation of the FD:

First part of dance: Roxanne

Christian is attracted to Satine. He wants her but wants her not to be a courtesan. He's jealous of the other men she has in her life but can't accept her courtesan ways.

Satine is attracted to Christian but she has no room in her life for romance. She is busy working and trying to create a stable life for herself.

Second part of dance: The tango (the dance of love)

Christian and Satine are falling in love with each other but each is struggling against it for the reasons above.

The lift = the height of conflict and the beginning of acceptance

Part 3: Come what may

Christian and Satine are in the headiness of love...come what may.

Part 4: Death

Satine's tragic death but their love will live on

 

[kittysk8ts]

Hahahahhahahahaha re all these recent posts about the V/M lift. It's just a frigging lift people. And one they have done before. And it's awesome. I am not offended by "cunniliftus". I love it. Does that make me a dirty birdy? Maybe. Giggle.

 

[GreenGan]

"Face to belly" argument doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah technically he's right in front of her belly, but how do you interpret the way she puts her hand on his head and the way she's looking down? Representation of conflict, as in "just keep your face to my belly!" ?
Not that it matters much to me anyway, the sex side of it, that is. That lift is simply great, the hands and the way she faces him by looking down a little too much but not that outrageous.

The main problem I have with their interpretation is that in the tango Tessa is picturing a femme fatale, which Satine is not. She's supposed to lure men in, to fake submission to get into their bed and get money. Like when she asks the owner of the cabaret what kind of woman does the Duke like. There is no domination in her character.
She's a strong women, that's for sure, but for most part of the movie she just wanna fulfill her bigest dream ie becoming an actress, and love just happens to her. She fights against her desire and Christian - not long- but she eventually end up by letting it happen. She wants to be an actress and to save the show so she goes to the Duke during the tango scene. She doesn't tell Christian about her disease. She manages to get into the scene and be applauded for her talent, and then die because of a disease.

This is tragedy, this is great dramaturgy. Where is that dramaturgy, the struggle Satine fails to overcome in that free dance ? The tango part is filled with sorrow, hatred and fatality/despair in the movie. The Duke basically rape her. There's nothing like it in their tango. All I see is a femme fatale who's pursued by some man, finally fall in love with, live happily for a little while and then die.

I don't have any problem with this story-telling, but I don't see Satine on the ice. I see a mix of V/M's Carmen and V/M's Mahler. And it IS a great programme. But on the MR music I don't buy it. Just my opinion.

 

[chapis]

"Face to belly" argument doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah technically he's right in front of her belly, but how do you interpret the way she puts her hand on his head and the way she's looking down? Representation of conflict, as in "just keep your face to my belly!" ?
Not that it matters much to me anyway, the sex side of it, that is. That lift is simply great, the hands and the way she faces him by looking down a little too much but not that outrageous.

thanks God, I was getting worried for people not knowing where mouth must to be to give oral sex . Then it is a compliment that people say that they clearly see how V/M try to express sex in that lift. It has been argued that acrobatic lifts do not say anything and that they are not coherent in a program. But here you have to V/M who manage to make a acrobatic and coherent lift that means something for the story of the program. And they got it by just putting her belly on his face .

 

[barbarafan]

Really?! I’ve read and agreed with multiple posts of both of you over the decades. Way back in fsu days...
You both are known quantities.

Why is one of you trying to pretend to not know how the other person posts at all?

Everyone has lines that they draw internally on behavior. Such total disrespect of 2 great people who are also great artists for me crosses that line. But I have dealt with it and will no longer see any posts from that particular source.

 

[VGThuy]

"Face to belly" argument doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah technically he's right in front of her belly, but how do you interpret the way she puts her hand on his head and the way she's looking down? Representation of conflict, as in "just keep your face to my belly!" ?
Not that it matters much to me anyway, the sex side of it, that is. That lift is simply great, the hands and the way she faces him by looking down a little too much but not that outrageous.

The main problem I have with their interpretation is that in the tango Tessa is picturing a femme fatale, which Satine is not. She's supposed to lure men in, to fake submission to get into their bed and get money. Like when she asks the owner of the cabaret what kind of woman does the Duke like. There is no domination in her character.
She's a strong women, that's for sure, but for most part of the movie she just wanna fulfill her bigest dream ie becoming an actress, and love just happens to her. She fights against her desire and Christian - not long- but she eventually end up by letting it happen. She wants to be an actress and to save the show so she goes to the Duke during the tango scene. She doesn't tell Christian about her disease. She manages to get into the scene and be applauded for her talent, and then die because of a disease.

This is tragedy, this is great dramaturgy. Where is that dramaturgy, the struggle Satine fails to overcome in that free dance ? The tango part is filled with sorrow, hatred and fatality/despair in the movie. The Duke basically rape her. There's nothing like it in their tango. All I see is a femme fatale who's pursued by some man, finally fall in love with, live happily for a little while and then die.

I don't have any problem with this story-telling, but I don't see Satine on the ice. I see a mix of V/M's Carmen and V/M's Mahler. And it IS a great programme. But on the MR music I don't buy it. Just my opinion.

I think the program works if you just think of it as a take on MR or borrowing elements from the story to tell a different, if similar, story rather than a literal retelling of MR. Skaters do that all the time. They take music from a source and put their own spin/story/themes into it. What they choose to tell may have some overlap with the original source because the music already is meant to convey a certain mood/emotion, but it doesn't have to be the exact same story. Plus the limitations of ice dance and only having two partners limits the ability to always faithfully recreate a story in the same exact way.

 

[Rafter]

I didn’t realize figure skating fans were so prudish.

 

[VGThuy]

I just want to be clear that I may have been a bit much with my description of that lift, but I honestly did not intend any disrespect to Tessa/Scott as I actually do see that lift (like the way it was used in Carmen) as their interpretation of sex (as much as they can get away with in the figure skating world because there are actually rules about family friendliness or whatever they call it) and the second part of that lift being much more romantic and pure as it goes into "Come What May". I truly do believe that's why they chose to do it at the height of conflict and used it as a transition from conflict to reconciliation and harmony.

Whatever issues people have with my post, I admit my description was a bit bold, but any other feelings people have about sex and why they automatically think sex must be "disgusting" or an insult is their problem, not mine. I don't see sex or people trying to show sex (even in the most abstract way) in their dance as a negative...actually quite far from it. And further, since it seems my post naming a particular act is what some had issue with, there's nothing wrong with an act meant to give a woman pleasure as long as the parties are consenting.

 

[lauravvv]

barbarafan, I think you have misunderstood something. Obviously even a suggestion that some element in an ice dancing program could be portraying sex is something very bad and horrible in your view, but I think VIETgrlTerifa didn't mean it as something bad. She has never been a V/M hater. You simply have different views on things.

 

[skategal]

Hahahahhahahahaha re all these recent posts about the V/M lift. It's just a frigging lift people. And one they have done before. And it's awesome. I am not offended by "cunniliftus". I love it. Does that make me a dirty birdy? Maybe. Giggle.

I agree. The lift is effing awesome.

If another team was doing it, everyone on FSU would be saying "They are bringing THE SEX."

 

[cocotaffy]

I didn’t realize figure skating fans were so prudish.

Yes you'd think they'd be used to it by now with all those " trip to the gynecologist lifts."

And further, since it seems my post naming a particular act is what some had issue with, there's nothing wrong with an act meant to give a woman pleasure as long as the parties are consenting.

Absolutely.

 

[MsZem]

If another team was doing it, everyone on FSU would be saying "They are bringing THE SEX."

I would still be saying that it's an aesthetically unappealing lift. I'm sure it's very difficult, and I think it's obvious what it's meant to depict. But that doesn't make it any more attractive.

Disclaimer: I'm generally not a fan of acrobatic or showstopper lifts. Many of them look ugly to me, and interrupt the flow of the program. It's distracting, and not in a good way.

 

[sap5]

I'm reading that V/M's FD is more difficult to comprehend than P/C's FD. I don't think MR is a difficult story to get at all and in fact it's pretty literal and easy to get. I just don't know if it's successful in bringing out the emotions that they are obviously intending it to bring out because they're trying to say a lot in 4 minutes and I'm not sure if there's enough breathing room to let the audience really soak it in and I'm not sure if the construction is the most successful in telling the dtory. And as acknowledged by others, it's also a very technically-demanding and dense piece of choreography so there's a lot more to pay attention to outside the story that I wonder if that busy quality hinders some people's appreciation of the program. I also wonder how many are actually carefully watching the program to notice the intricacies and how many are just finding things to judge about it and running with that.

If they find that thread that will unite all the choreography, then imo, most, if not all, of the problems you are mentioning will go away. When it's hard to see what is trying to be said in a piece, things will look busy, dense, overly complicated, etc. But when it's clear, all those pieces usually serve to make a richer program. The question will be, can V/M figure out how to pull this off? Now that the GP series is over, they actually have quite a bit of time to go in and make fixes. I will be interested to see how this all turns out.

 

[sap5]

Otherwise, I really don't think the judges don't like MR because otherwise there would be a much wider gap between P/C and V/M PCS. The key is TES and GOEs, that's all.

I agree with this.

 

[mollymgr]

From Scott's scary and utterly threatening faces like he's about to eat her in the beginning of the FD in GPF, I thought so too. He needs to tone it down then because it's confusing as hell.

I don't get the expressions. It made me think he was playing the role of the Argentinian for the first half and Tessa was Nini, like the movie? Then they switch to being Christian and Satine once the tango ends.

He eats her later though.