Harvey Weinstein megaproducer and executive ousted over sexual harassment

[LilJen]

Al Franken now among the accused.

 

[Jenny]

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., called for an ethics investigations into Franken.

As long as the self-proclaimed pussy grabber is in the Oval Office I can't take McConnell, Ryan or any of them seriously on this issue.

 

[VGThuy]

Oh geez. He should probably step down since it seems there’s a photograph out there.

 

[snoopy]

I worked at a pool during high school. On my eighteenth birthday, I was corralled, carried, and tied up to a fence and then had shaving cream sprayed on the outline of my lady parts. It would never occur to me to me too about it. I had never even thought of the incident again until seeing the Franken picture. Guys are never going to talk to women again.

 

[MsZem]

I worked at a pool during high school. On my eighteenth birthday, I was corralled, carried, and tied up to a fence and then had shaving cream sprayed on the outline of my lady parts. It would never occur to me to me too about it. I had never even thought of the incident again until seeing the Franken picture. Guys are never going to talk to women again.

Maybe they'll just have to spraying teenagers with shaving cream and groping (or pretending to grope) women again. No great loss as far as I'm concerned.

 

[VGThuy]

Guys will definitely talk to women again, so I don't think we have to be fearful of that. I think if it teaches some people that it's wrong to grope a woman while she's sleeping, especially AFTER you were already being creepy to her and became aggressive and forced a kiss on you (which seems like retribution for the fact that she didn't want to "play along") after knowing she did not consent, then that is ok in my book. And we all know some people are kinky or have different a sense of humors and some would find the fun in an activity like being corralled, carried, tied up with shaving cream sprayed on the outline of her lady parts, especially if your relationship with said people are such where they know you're ok with that, so the idea is really consent and respecting someone's boundaries.

 

[skatesindreams]

All of this behaviour is symptomatic of the lack of respect generally shown to anyone; of either sex, that someone wishes to victimize, demean, and belittle.
The aftereffects last a lifetime.

 

[Buzz]

Very disappointed in Al Franken. There is nothing funny about that photograph. If the verdict from his victim and the powers that be is that he steps down then that is what he should do.

 

[Jenny]

If this is chronic behaviour like Weinstein, Spacey and Moore, that's one thing, but are we really at the point where someone's entire career and life should be ruined over one stupid moment?

 

[ilovepaydays]

Now, also today - there is also this allegation about Sylvester Stallone.

If this is true - what. the. actual. hell.

 

[overedge]

Very disappointed in Al Franken. There is nothing funny about that photograph. If the verdict from his victim and the powers that be is that he steps down then that is what he should do.

I am a huge Al Franken fan because of the progressive voice he brings to the Senate and the tough questions he asks, but "I don't remember it the same way" isn't really much of an excuse. If he was so insistent that he and the woman had to "practice" the kiss, I think he would remember that. I'm really kind of disappointed and sad about how he responded.

 

[ilovepaydays]

If this is chronic behaviour like Weinstein, Spacey and Moore, that's one thing, but are we really at the point where someone's entire career and life should be ruined over one stupid moment?

Stupid? The woman was asleep when he groped her. Consent and respecting boundaries isn’t that hard to understand, folks.

 

[Jenny]

I've seen the picture. Yes it's inappropriate and he should not have done it. But IMO relatively speaking, it's harmless. She's wearing a flight vest and his hands appear to be hovering over or just touching - not what I'd call groping or a physical assault. Not the right thing to do, not funny, but not that big a deal. Just as @snoopy said, people do dumb things that at the time seem like just goofing around, which is what this looks like to me. I don't know about the rest of you, but if I dig through my photos there are likely more than a handful that don't put me or others in the best light, stuff that perhaps seemed funny at the time but is now just stupid.

Interesting though that there's so much focus on the photo, which really is the least of it. The story she tells about the forced kiss is more problematic to me, but even there who are we to judge when there is no objective eye witness account to review?

I'm not defending Franken, and yes if others come forward and it's chronic behaviour, it's a problem. But to me, this is not the kind of thing the US Government should be spending time investigating (seriously - there is so, so much very important stuff going on right now, and this is what McConnell is talking about?), and it's not enough to negate a person's record of public service or ruin their life.

The larger issue to me is this mob mentality that has everyone passing judgement based on the smallest strands of information and without any due process. What if that happened to you or someone you loved? If Franken or some of the others were our father or brother or husband, would we all be so quick to say he should lose his job, reputation, everything over something like this?

 

[jeffisjeff]

Labeling this behavior as "harmless" (you know, boys will be boys) is what got us to the point where this kind of endemic in our society.

 

[Prancer]

Guys are never going to talk to women again.

Really? Most men I know can have a conversation with a woman without, say, spraying her with shaving cream or even telling her what great tits she has.

It's really not that difficult for men. I've seen many of them manage a conversation without making pigs of themselves.

 

[attyfan]

Labeling this behavior as "harmless" (you know, boys will be boys) is what got us to the point where this kind of endemic in our society.

I don't think a debate over certain standards (amount of proof required, what is or is not appropriate discipline, etc.) should be the same as labeling the behavior as "harmless". That Franken's behavior was not harmless doesn't mean that it is necessarily appropriate to treat what seems to be a one time incident with an adult the same way as someone who (apparently) repeatedly targeted minors.

 

[gkelly]

I think there has been a big change in the past month in the way the public perceives this behavior and in the sudden empowerment that those on the receiving end now feel to speak out.

Which is a positive development and long overdue. I hope that all men (and women, but much more often men) who have ever "joked around" in ways that gratified themselves at the expense of others, especially others in relatively powerless positions, now realize that the behavior was wrong, stop it immediately if they're still doing it, apologize sincerely, and make amends where possible.

If there were actual crimes involved, especially if statutes of limitations are not expired, then criminal investigations would be appropriate.

I don't think every famous person who behaved badly at least once and is now being publicly accused needs to quit his job or be fired immediately.

But if the public begins to sour on individuals with multiple or very disturbing accusations against them, probably voters will stop voting for them and audiences will stop buying tickets to their performances or turning on their shows.

Political committees, sponsors, and employers would be within their rights to drop support for a public figure who has lost the goodwill of the public.

But for politicians who are currently in office and who haven't committed crimes, I'm more interested in seeing them repent past actions and trying to make up for them in the future.

Regardless of political party.

If they just deny accusations and continue to behave inappropriately, they should now expect to be called out immediately and not decades later.

 

[jeffisjeff]

I don't think a debate over certain standards (amount of proof required, what is or is not appropriate discipline, etc.) should be the same as labeling the behavior as "harmless".

Jenny labeled the behavior as harmless. Her word. I was reacting to that.

 

[overedge]

In Franken's most recent book (Giant of the Senate) he talks about how when he first ran in the primaries, the Repubs were pulling up all sorts of skits and commentary he did in his performing career. And they tried to spin it as, e.g. Franken endorses using drugs, Franken thinks casual sex is great, and so on. But he did counter ads about how that was his work and while it may have been funny or stupid at the time, it didn't represent him as a person now. I kind of wish he'd said something like that today....

 

[VGThuy]

I don't think something has to be chronic to result in calling for someone to step down from their position. It depends on the incident, whether the behavior was admitted (Franken didn't deny it), the nature of the allegations, and the standards of behavior expected from that person's job. I know there are some jobs that take infractions less lightly than others. I could lose my license and be disbarred for life if I did certain things that other people at other jobs could get away with including acts that are not criminal. I would hope being a politician where you are the face and representative of your community would be one of them. That said, I also think it's up to the community to decide whether they believe Franken's infraction is severe enough to call him to step down. First, it'll be his peers in the Congressional committee, then, if he they find that he shouldn't be called to step down, his constituents.

 

[Buzz]

I think I would have more respect for Franken if he didn't hide from his colleagues and reporters. He should be a big boy and face everyone.

 

[PrincessLeppard]

The photographer of the picture is saying it was staged to be used for a skit. She wasn't really asleep.

I appreciate that Franken agreed to the investigation. Maybe this can be cleared up. And if he has to resign, he has to resign and I think he will.

 

[Buzz]

I am glad Franken agreed to an investigation and I hope we get the whole truth.

 

[ballettmaus]

The photographer of the picture is saying it was staged to be used for a skit. She wasn't really asleep.

I appreciate that Franken agreed to the investigation. Maybe this can be cleared up. And if he has to resign, he has to resign and I think he will.

That's what I was wondering about; if the photograph is really what it looks like. That said, I still find it tasteless.

Are the accuser of the kiss and the woman in the photograph one and the same? I'm asking because I heard that the accuser (of the kiss) has accepted his apology. I have to admit, after I heard that she had accepted the apology, I began to wonder if this is about abuse or 15 minutes of fame.
It seems that all the other women who have come forward don't want apologies. They want the world to know what has happened to them and they want the attitudes of men to change and they want women to not be afraid in the future when sexual abuse happens. Accusing someone in the morning and accepting an apology in the afternoon doesn't scream "I'm finally coming forward because I want sexual abuse to finally stop" to me.

 

[Wyliefan]

Are the accuser of the kiss and the woman in the photograph one and the same?

Yes.

It seems that all the other women who have come forward don't want apologies. They want the world to know what has happened to them and they want the attitudes of men to change and they want women to not be afraid in the future when sexual abuse happens. Accusing someone in the morning and accepting an apology in the afternoon doesn't scream "I'm finally coming forward because I want sexual abuse to finally stop" to me.

I wasn't aware that accusers had to pass a test on their motivations before they could be accepted.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm glad Al Franken invited a congressional investigation. I hope all of this will be cleared up. Franken's own statements, seemed to acknowledge some of what Tweeden alleged and he apologized for it. I do think he did the right thing in acting quickly. I do hope the appropriate measures are taken once the facts are out.

OT since often times prison is not an option in these cases as the statute of limitations have already run out or the types of acts being alleged won't result in prison time or there's never going to be enough evidence to bring charges up anyway, but I do think Jenny brought up a good point about how people on social media and beyond want to burn the accused and make sure someone is destroyed forever for past acts as a way to punish the perpetrators. I still stand by my earlier statements, but I also wonder if this is the place to start talking about a "restorative justice" model as opposed to, what some argue, is an unduly punitive one including public shaming and essential exile. I've been thinking about "restorative justice" alternatives to imprisonment and etc. for a while because I find our country is way too entrenched in the prison model as a way to punish people, but I'm also wondering about whether this issue would be an appropriate issue to jump start that conversation.

 

[Wyliefan]

I'm all in favor of a restorative justice model myself, when possible. It's not easy -- it takes a LOT of commitment and effort on all sides -- but I think it's worthwhile to try. The Weinsteins of the world, who make this behavior a pattern for decades and refuse to admit wrongdoing, aren't good candidates for it, but others might be.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm all in favor of a restorative justice model myself, when possible. It's not easy -- it takes a LOT of commitment and effort on all sides -- but I think it's worthwhile to try. The Weinsteins of the world, who make this behavior a pattern for decades and refuse to admit wrongdoing, aren't good candidates for it, but others might be.

Definitely agree with you on that.

 

[Japanfan]

I'm all in favor of a restorative justice model myself, when possible. It's not easy -- it takes a LOT of commitment and effort on all sides -- but I think it's worthwhile to try. The Weinsteins of the world, who make this behavior a pattern for decades and refuse to admit wrongdoing, aren't good candidates for it, but others might be.

I'm in favor of that model too, but don't know that it can ever work for men who commit sexual assault. Even those with less power and privilege than Harvey Weinstein usually have greater power and privilege than women in their own class.

I'd be interested to know whether any Indigenous communities that practice restorative justice have found it to be effective for sexual offenders.

I really hope that more men have learned that sexual assault is wrong in recent decades - when I was growing up in the 70s date rape was normal, although there wasn't yet a word for it. And women didn't talk about it. I have friends who only spoke about it decades later. Since it is ultimately such a shaming experience, women tend to deny it or bury it.

Parents really need to educate their kids that sexual assault is wrong when they are young and high schools should engage teens in dialogue about it.

 

[ballettmaus]

I wasn't aware that accusers had to pass a test on their motivations before they could be accepted.

I never said that. I simply said that I'm questioning her motives.
I was wondering what in the world was wrong with men and why Franken hadn't announced his resignation yet all day long. Then I saw a segment with her on CNN readily answering questions, heard about her acceptance of Franken's apology, read about the photographer having said that the photograph was staged and all of that made me start questioning her motives.
Sexual harrassment is a serious issue and if all one wants are 15 minutes of fame then I think they should keep their mouth shut as that is not helping fight sexual harrassment. To the contrary, I think that it has the potential to do a great deal of harm. (And for the record, I'm not saying that 15 minutes of fame is what she wants or wanted. I'm just saying that the way it went down made me wonder about it all.)

And I'm still finding the photograph absolutely tasteless and I'm wondering if that alone shouldn't be grounds for resignation. This is not a joking matter and this is not a photograph that you take, staged or otherwise.