U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

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pairskatingfan said:
... I think Chris' mistakes on the jumps are more mental than physical. Clearly he has the ability to land the jumps or they wouldn't be in the program. I also don't know why anyone would push him to take advice from Peter Oppergard, who is known for verbally, emotionally, and physically abusing pair girls over the years.. Not to mention how much of a creep he is for marrying his student who is almost 20 years his junior. Nothing wrong with Karen, of course she is beautiful, but still he is repulsive.
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^^ Oh my!? I don't know anything about Peter's character and personality. I'm also not aware that Peter was ever Karen's teacher. I know he taught at the same rink where she was coached by Frank Carroll when she was training with her sister, Michelle. But jeez, if you think you know that much about it, good grief. Repulsive?? I've never heard anything of that nature. I saw Peter and Karen together at Nationals back in 2000 when they were still dating. They looked fine together. And they've been married for quite some time and have two daughters.

And btw, I'm not 'pushing' Chris to take advice from Peter or from anyone. I just queried about it, thinking advice from tall former skaters might be helpful. I personally have nothing to do with it. I'm just a U.S. pairs fan speaking out on the sidelines. And re the vehemence of your slanderous accusations, maybe remaining on the sidelines in this case is where it's safer. :yikes:
 
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pairskatingfan said:
I think Alexa and Chris looked great at NHK, despite the jumping mistakes. 2 of them were sloppy, and one was a full miss, the pop on the toe. Still, with everything else solid, they are in by far the best place of any of our teams. As someone said earlier, their throws were very impressive. Timed with the music, big, and great flow.
I think Chris' mistakes on the jumps are more mental than physical. Clearly he has the ability to land the jumps or they wouldn't be in the program. I also don't know why anyone would push him to take advice from Peter Oppergard, who is known for verbally, emotionally, and physically abusing pair girls over the years.. Not to mention how much of a creep he is for marrying his student who is almost 20 years his junior. Nothing wrong with Karen, of course she is beautiful, but still he is repulsive.
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Those are some pretty big accusations you are making against Peter. Do you know him personally? Because saying someone is abusive is serious to me. As someone who actually trained in the same rink he coached in I would say that is very unfair. And I don't recall Karen ever being his student. Frank was Karen's coach.
 
If you break down some of the elements for SK/K -

Their twist, throws and DS all receive over +1.0 and / or achieve LV 4. I think they have completed a 4tw3 before(?). On these elements, SK/K are world class and compete w/ the best

Their lifts are usually LV 4 and got close to +1.0 at NHK, but I think they have gone above +1.0 in the past? Again, close to world class level.

The pairs spin is usually adequate, but no wow factor. Probably with more tension (primarily in his body) and imagination, they could do better.

Weak spots are not only the SBS jumps, but the SBS spins. The jumps are the biggest problem but no one is talking about the SBS spins: While they can achieve a LV 4 (normally), the spins barely rise above GOE of 0 and look like they eke them out. From the beginning, they have said the SBS spins are their least favorite element but when you are fighting for a place against like 10 other teams, you have to nail everything to stand out.
 
Interesting point about their SBS spins, Olympic. When I watched their FS over on youtube, I noticed how far apart they were on their spins. That seems that can be fixed easily enough. Certainly their spins can be improved easier than solving their jumping problems. And if I remember right, the speed in their pair spin most of the time is very good, certainly compared to the labored spins I've seen from other US teams.
 
Spiralgraph said:
Interesting point about their SBS spins, Olympic. When I watched their FS over on youtube, I noticed how far apart they were on their spins. That seems that can be fixed easily enough. Certainly their spins can be improved easier than solving their jumping problems. And if I remember right, the speed in their pair spin most of the time is very good, certainly compared to the labored spins I've seen from other US teams.
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Yes. Good point @Spiralgraph . They spin far apart and you get a sense just watching that it is not a favorite element of theirs. They get LV 4 but it’s so labored and lacks a certain aesthetic.

I think the pairs spin is marginally better. He spins her like a top when she is in a camel position/ he crouches. Nice and fast! But the rest is just adequate. They skate to romantic music, so I think there are certain better ‘romantic’ positions out there. For example, Moskvina’s teams used to hold beautiful positions where the lady is underneath the man. That could work for SK/K because he is tall and has reasonably good extension and she is a rock star
 
Cleo1782 said:
Those are some pretty big accusations you are making against Peter. Do you know him personally? Because saying someone is abusive is serious to me. As someone who actually trained in the same rink he coached in I would say that is very unfair. And I don't recall Karen ever being his student. Frank was Karen's coach.
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I thought it was a pretty well-known fact about his unacceptable behavior with his students and short fuse. It's why he has lost many students over the years. From what I have heard is that he doesn't seem to get so mean to the point of abuse with men, but with the girls, even young teenagers, he most certainly has on many occasions.
Maybe my info on Karen was wrong, but my hearsay is that they started dating when she was 16, which would have made him about 35?
 
I doubt they started dating when she was 16. I was at a summer camp for a couple of weeks at Lake Arrowhead in 1996, when Karen was around 18. My roommates and I never saw anything hinting of any romance between them or any abusive behavior on Peter's part. Believe me, we were bored and starstruck, so we noticed everything. I remember one roommate commenting that Karen went in to get an apple from the dining room (ooh, she ate something!), and another time, she was excited that Peter said hi as they crossed paths. As far as I know, Karen was never Peter's student either.
 
Danny Kwan would never have allowed either of his daughters to date a man twice their age when they were teenagers. He was super strict with the girls. In any event, Karen moved to the east coast at age 17 to attend Boston University so the dating aspect at 16 is just not plausible.
 
pairskatingfan said:
I thought it was a pretty well-known fact about his unacceptable behavior with his students and short fuse. It's why he has lost many students over the years. From what I have heard is that he doesn't seem to get so mean to the point of abuse with men, but with the girls, even young teenagers, he most certainly has on many occasions.
Maybe my info on Karen was wrong, but my hearsay is that they started dating when she was 16, which would have made him about 35?
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It's probably not a good idea to make accusations based on hearsay. You also spoke of "physical abuse," which should not be thrown about lightly, especially without personally having firsthand direct experience or knowledge. Nor is an Internet forum the right place to make such accusations.

Yes, some coaches are known to be strict and/or short-tempered. It's important for every skater to find a coach they feel comfortable working with. A coach, no matter their experience and/or former skating success, is not always the right fit for every skater, which is something we've seen quite often in figure skating. And again, specific details and knowledge that is firsthand should be the criteria before making harsh claims. Rumors are not hard evidence.

There's about a 19-year difference in age between Karen and Peter. Seemingly, Karen began dating Peter sometime after she graduated from college. When I saw them at Nationals in 2000, Karen was 21 going on 22, and probably they had been dating for less than a year or so at that point. Of course I don't know for certain. In any case, they were married in 2003 and they have two daughters. They are often together in the kiss 'n cry at Nationals supporting their charges. And they have both done choreography over the years for some of their students. As we know, Peter choreographed the ambitious but misunderstood at the time, Miraculous Mandarin, for Michelle. And I believe that Karen has designed skating costumes.
 
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aftershocks said:
It's probably not a good idea to make accusations based on hearsay. You also spoke of "physical abuse," which should not be thrown about lightly, especially without personally having firsthand direct experience or knowledge. Nor is an Internet forum the right place to make such accusations.

Yes, some coaches are known to be strict and/or short-tempered. It's important for every skater to find a coach they feel comfortable working with. A coach, no matter their experience and/or former skating success, is not always the right fit for every skater, which is something we've seen quite often in figure skating. And again, specific details and knowledge that is firsthand should be the criteria before making harsh claims. Rumors are not hard evidence.

There's about a 19-year difference in age between Karen and Peter. Seemingly, Karen began dating Peter sometime after she graduated from college. When I saw them at Nationals in 2000, Karen was 21 going on 22, and probably they had been dating for less than a year or so at that point. Of course I don't know for certain. In any case, they were married in 2003 and they have two daughters. They are often together in the kiss 'n cry at Nationals supporting their charges. And they have both done choreography over the years for some of their students. Peter choreographed Miraculous Mandarin for Michelle. And I believe that Karen has designed skating costumes.
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I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. It's hearsay that I had a problem with. I don't think it's a secret Peter was very passionate about his work and perhaps may have been critical to his students. I have myself taken lessons from Peter and know several of his former students. Strict and Intense? Sure, but I have never heard claims nor witnessed (from male or female skaters) any sort of abuse. Several skaters speak very well about him and their time spent with him.
He also seems like his mellowed a bit with age, time, and marriage/children. As for when Karen and Peter got together? It's really none of our business since it is obvious when she was 16 or 17 they were not together and when they did come forward together as a couple she was an adult. They are married and have two children. Clearly, whatever situation they had worked for them as it has been almost 15 years now.
 
aftershocks said:
It's probably not a good idea to make accusations based on hearsay. You also spoke of "physical abuse," which should not be thrown about lightly, especially without personally having firsthand direct experience or knowledge. Nor is an Internet forum the right place to make such accusations.

Yes, some coaches are known to be strict and/or short-tempered. It's important for every skater to find a coach they feel comfortable working with. A coach, no matter their experience and/or former skating success, is not always the right fit for every skater, which is something we've seen quite often in figure skating. And again, specific details and knowledge that is firsthand should be the criteria before making harsh claims. Rumors are not hard evidence.

There's about a 19-year difference in age between Karen and Peter. Seemingly, Karen began dating Peter sometime after she graduated from college. When I saw them at Nationals in 2000, Karen was 21 going on 22, and probably they had been dating for less than a year or so at that point. Of course I don't know for certain. In any case, they were married in 2003 and they have two daughters. They are often together in the kiss 'n cry at Nationals supporting their charges. And they have both done choreography over the years for some of their students. As we know, Peter choreographed the ambitious but misunderstood at the time, Miraculous Mandarin, for Michelle. And I believe that Karen has designed skating costumes.
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To be clear, his relationship information with Karen was only hearsay. The abuse allegations are not. He most definitely has. It’s not my place to tell the girls’ stories for them so I don’t need to get into the details, but physical, emotional, and verbal abuse are all not uncommon for him. The way that he treats young women makes him human garbage and he shouldn’t be in the sport at all.
 
pairskatingfan said:
To be clear, his relationship information with Karen was only hearsay. The abuse allegations are not. He most definitely has. It’s not my place to tell the girls’ stories for them so I don’t need to get into the details, but physical, emotional, and verbal abuse are all not uncommon for him. The way that he treats young women makes him human garbage and he shouldn’t be in the sport at all.
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I am sure you are prepared to back all this up should you end up in court for it--because you might.
 
pairskatingfan said:
To be clear, his relationship information with Karen was only hearsay. The abuse allegations are not. He most definitely has. It’s not my place to tell the girls’ stories for them so I don’t need to get into the details, but physical, emotional, and verbal abuse are all not uncommon for him. The way that he treats young women makes him human garbage and he shouldn’t be in the sport at all.
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Until we know for sure, I say innocent until proven guilty.

If he is simply a tough, demanding coach, then any "allegations" are on his students.
 
Don't they have Dartfish in Colorado Springs where S-K/K train? I'm betting they've used that. (If they haven't, Delilah's a fool.)
 
^^ So how is Dartfish supposed to work? Are Chris' difficulties and inconsistency then mostly physical due to injuries or largely mental (i.e., difficult to break a bad habit pattern, such as turning his head in the air which throws off his ability to get his weight over the correct landing foot)?
 
Did Jillian/Miles and Elli/Jonah drop out of Easterns? There are only 2 teams now and 5 in each of the other sections.
 
I believe there are only 4 Junior pairs at Easterns so it appears Kopmar/Barrett and Smart/Addison have elected not to compete and will advance to Nationals. BTW, Elli Kopmar competed in Juvenile Girls this morning and finished 5th (1st alternate to Nationals).

Natasha Mishkutionok/Daniel Tioumentsev just won the Juvenile Pairs event at Midwesterns (ETA direct link to the protocols): http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2018/25074/SEGM005.html
M/T received no points on their pivot figure element (introductory version of a death spiral) and they had a mistake on their planned sbs 2Lz+2T at the end.

Required elements chart for Pairs FS, Pre-Juvenile through Senior, for those interested: http://www.usfsa.org/content/2017-18 Pairs FS Chart.pdf
 
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^^ Hmmm, I'd rather see skilled and dedicated Russian pairs coaches collaborating with various clubs and connecting with talented young U.S. skaters to build a winning pairs discipline in the U.S., similar to what happened in ice dance for the U.S. A 'Mishkutionok' in U.S. pairs will still need a skilled U.S. partner who sticks, along with a consistent and skilled coaching environment.

Brava for what her mother accomplished for Russia back-in-the-day. And it will be nice if Mishkutionok's daughter can rise on her own talent and develop magic with a committed partner without over-expectations because of her name and her mother's accomplishments.
 
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Because of the name Mishkutionok? :COP: :p Obviously, it will take more than that, unless it's the name that garners extra nostalgia points in the way that some Russian skaters tend to gather rep points, even as newbies.

Spun Silver said:
US pairs will rule again!
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:huh: U.S. pairs never exactly 'ruled,' although they did shine at different periods beginning in the 1950s, and throughout the 1970s (with Shelley/Starbuck and Tai/Randy), the 1980s, and here and there in the 1990s, up till 2002. There's been a podium drought ever since, of course.

It will take much more than young Mishkutionok and partner for U.S. pairs to 'rule.' :drama:

Checking them out beats going into frenzies over Natasha's last name:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mkd3eWPolk

They are obviously promising, with Russian-themed music and all. ;) Let's see how they both grow and develop. And above all, let's see if they will stay together and avoid becoming infected by the virulent U.S. pairs split-itis.
 
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DDNatalia said:
Tamara Moskvina, who has coached in the US before (Stamford CT back in the 200s)
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I forgot about Stamford -- Moskvina's wiki entry states: "In 1998, Moskvina and her students spent some time at the Stamford Twin Rinks in Stamford, Connecticut. In 1999, Moskvina moved to Hackensack, New Jersey's Ice House and spent several years coaching there."

I forgot to mention earlier that Castelli/Tran withdrew from CS Tallinn Trophy after they got France as their 2nd GP.

Chelsea Liu/Brian Johnson and Jessica Pfund/Josh Santillan are competing at CS Warsaw Cup -- they drew the last 2 spots (#7 & 8) in the SP tomorrow. For those who don't have Kiss & Cry access and want to watch online: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/2017-isu-challenger-series.101077/page-7#post-5185213
 
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