U.S. Ladies [#19]: Do You Know the Way to San Jose?

[kwanfan1818]

Karen Chen in the SP at Skate Canada. It impressed me that she was thinking on her feet.

 

[jlai]

I don't think it is fair to say US female skaters are weak competitors. I think they didn't learn the right technique at a young age, and of course, your skating confidence will get a boost if you can count on your technique.

BTW, I also don't think USFSA is ALWAYS getting it wrong (or always getting it right). They made some wrong bets on a couple of skaters in the past and were too slow to change their jgp selection process. But I think they have improved on that the last few years. Hopefully the jump bonus will help too.

 

[Willin]

Yeah! I've always been impressed with Courtney's jumping ability. I almost wonder if she'd do better if she was trying a quad before the 3-3. Not because I'm 100% sure she could do a quad, but rather because her problem seems to be that the triple is too huge to handle and maybe putting that extra energy/height in a quad would help her not have the problem coming out of that first jump.

@Coco As I've said before, a lot of US coaches/judges/execs don't like Ashley on a personal level or a skating level. The fact is that a lot of international judges are very forgiving to her, so while she's not the best skater, she's the one that consistently scores best internationally. USFS picks skaters not for domestic results, but rather for international results and potential, and as much as a lot of them hate it, Ashley gets those results much more often and more consistently than any other US lady. They may give her "special favors" if only for the political posturing those favors give her going into the Olympics. Since the rest of the US ladies are inconsistent or otherwise haven't gotten stellar results, I don't think they'll get the same look at Body of Work, but Ashley has certainly earned it.
An important thing I think we forget about body of work is that yes, it does take consistency and medals into account, but it also takes into account who scores well with international judges. Some skaters are just scored better by international panels than others, and Ashley is the prime example of that. It should be noted others are scored much better domestically.

I think USFS is sending a message that base value is important to those at the lower ranks. They're rewarding 3-3 attempts and 3's at lower levels and as a result a lot more skaters are trying them. That, at least, is working.
The bigger problem as I see it with US Ladies going forward is funding. The biggest reason for the lack of good Russian ladies in the late 00s-early 10s was an economic downturn making skating less affordable for middle class families to start at a lower level (before state funding is offered) and less funding available. In the US, we're not exactly having a downturn, but few families are willing and able to invest the money to get skaters good training from the start. Fewer still are able to continue investing when their skater gets up to Novice and higher levels. I've also noticed a change in the culture - when I started, it was a lot more acceptable for an upper middle class or wealthy kid to spend a lot of their time on sportsy; now, there's a much larger emphasis on AP classes and academics eating up what could be training time. Unless, of course, the child is in a sport that can get them a college scholarship or an NBA/NFL/NHL/MLS job paying them $$$. Not that that's a bad thing - college is good - just that it means the classes that can afford skating may be shifting priorities or shifting focus to other sports.

 

[Coco]

There's a group called the Positive Coaching Alliance that has some great materials for coaching struggling athletes. One of the things they discuss is preparing that athlete to compete on a bad day:

Another method described below in the excerpt is to prepare for “off days”. No athlete is at his or her peak performance every day of the year. You are bound to have days you feel better than others. Mentally prepare for how you might compete on a day you feel your best and how you would compete on a bad day. Instead of being further unprepared to play, have a plan for how you’ll deal with competition on your bad days.

http://devzone.positivecoach.org/resource/book/getting-mental-edge-preparing-compete

So if you are sending an athlete into competition with less than optimal technique, you are on notice that you have to prepare them for dealing with lacking confidence and/or rebounding from a fall.

I think an added complication for US coaches is how to promote a skater who, if they go all out, is going to have some falls on a regular basis. A fall is such an obvious thing that reporters can harp on. URs can be chalked up to getting a bad call or something.

 

[b-man]

Oh, I literally mean the spring is impressive. It was supposed to be a compliment.

I thought you were talking about her popping jumps. I want to retract my "like."

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

hmmmmm...well...

what if we have an Oly Team of Hicks, Chen and Tennell.

YASSSSSSSSSS I'm speculating...... but...... what if?

I personally would be in a million depressions.

 

[bardtoob]

I thought you were talking about her popping jumps. I want to retract my "like."

@Maximillian

. . . I love my ability to make nobody happy

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I feel like the US ladies are encouraged to purse EVERYTHING in a way the was more respected under 6.0. Watching U.S. ladies programs sometimes feels like I'm watching a manifestation of Miss Havisham's wedding dress.

With so-so rather than GREAT expectations, or so it would seem...

It just feels sometimes like the newer generation of Russian and Japanese ladies have gone on to another level and a more contemporary style of skating. I don't know. I could be wrong but it feels like that to me sometimes. And international panels of judging are rewarding such skaters for it at competition after competition.

 

[Frida80]

Why is everyone so upset about us not being competitive this year? It’s not like we’ve been all that competitive for the last two Olympic seasons. I think people were more comfortable with the idea that we “could” be competitive if ________ happened. For the last four years, it’s been of Gracie could get her head together, she’s be winning world medals. I think it’s high time we all made peace that medals are probably not going to happen with single ladies. It wasn’t probable the other two times. We just got lucky that someone was good enough for a distant fourth.

Maybe we’ll get lucky and someone will rise to the challenge. But I’m not going to get depressed and start slamming these athletes just because they can’t get on an Olympic podium. Instead, I’m going to watch as they do their best to achieve their own personal dreams and cheer them on from the sidelines.

 

[Coco]

Well....4th and 5th at 2015 Worlds, 2nd and 4th at 2016 Worlds, 4th and 7th last year (although who could have predicted that).

This year, achieving 4th would be a huge upset.

 

[toddlj]

I fully expect the US ladies to bring it at Skate America. I'll be surprised if Ashley doesn't medal there.

 

[toddlj]

This year, achieving 4th would be a huge upset.

The Russian team and the Japanese team both have shown cracks in their armor. The medal stand is not set. Let's not pretend we can predict it. 4th for Karen last year was an upset. Ashley's silver in Boston was an upset. Daleman's bronze was an upset Upsets happen.

 

[aftershocks]

With regard to the K & C, Courtney and Karen probably are to a limited extent mugging for the camera.

The expressions I am referencing had nothing to do with mugging, IMO. There was a look on Karen's face as if she was praying and almost delusional about how many points she had left on the table. The tech panel was having none of being gingerly and protective toward the skaters at this competition, as others have pointed out already.

Courtney was feeling good after her skate and hopeful too that she might maintain her position. But she seemed to forget that she had left points on the table too with some of her jumping passes. Skaters' expressions in the kiss 'n cry are likely partly due to simply never knowing what the judges are going to do, even when as a skater you know how many mistakes you made.

 

[aftershocks]

I tip my hat to Osmond and while I doubted her consistency, the world medal has done wornders for her confidence.

True, but was it just something in the air that was 'splat-contagious' and 'pop-itis' that slightly infected Kaetlyn in the fp at Skate Canada? Kaetlyn is looking lovely and confident, but she's got to hit her programs when there's no pressure, and even moreso when there's loads of pressure. But that's a topic for Canadian ladies thread.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I think Rohene Ward has done a great job with Courtney in her SP. I prefer it to her long. One can see how hard Courtney has worked to improve on that second mark. I look at her and then I wish Mirai would have done the same starting four years ago. It's not too late but maybe it won't happen this Olympic season. Don't get me wrong! I'm so proud of Mirai for adding two jumps to her arsenal, first she put the 3S back and then the super hard 3A! And at age 24! Even the Russians are impressed by her 3A attempts to the point of showing Mirai's 3A videos to their youngsters! I'm supremely proud of Mirai for that too! It takes tremendous guts to keep throwing such hard jump content especially a 3A in the SP! I just wish she'd put as much effort in presentation, choreo, performance, etc. Coach Tom Z should have insisted on it although skaters with some artistry has never been his strong suit. Those PCS scores (and I've said this before) hold Nagasu down even when she hits! PCS scores saved Ashley at SC! And Carolina Kostner at other events when her jumps weren't on! Wagner has worked hard on that aspect over the years and, like Kostner, she is consistently rewarded with high PCS marks even when the jumps aren't quite there or she URs!

I've never forgotten a tweet that Rohene sent out some years ago (maybe after one of Mirai's Nationals??) pretty much saying that he would love to work with Mirai. I wish Mirai had worked with him this year particularly on her SP. I adored her Chopin number from last year by Jeff Buttle, but this year it is but a shadow of it's former self because so much of the choreo/transitions are gone or rearranged. Surely Tom Z is aware that the judges are not showing it the same love this year. I hope if she skates on after the Olympic season (please do Mirai) that she will consider having Rohene create a program (or two) for her. Ward expressed an interest in creating something for her and I believe he might just be the one to help draw Mirai out of that shell she seems to have put herself into post 2011 after she matured. I still believe in Mirai, and I still believe she can put two great programs together. She has done it before and hopefully she can do it again at her final GP this year and for the rest of the Olympic season.

I’ve assumed carrot comes from caret even if it’s pointing in a different direction. Personally I dont see a carrot when I look at a less than sign.

Neither do I. All this time I thought the exclamation point (!) next to a jump call was the carrot since it looks closer to a carrot to me. Show's you how much I know.

 

[Bellanca]

hmmmmm...well...

what if we have an Oly Team of Hicks, Chen and Tennell.

YASSSSSSSSSS I'm speculating...... but...... what if?

What a breath of fresh air that would be. I would be singing a thousand hallelujahs. This would suggest that progress was being made, that competition manipulation had been axed -- for a change, that sponsors had taken a back seat and were not allowed to influence or call the shots, that USFS had finally managed to pull their heads out of their a$$es... So, nah, it would never happen.

Re: the team event, any number of skaters could shore up a team. Heck, even meltdown and still manage to receive a team event medal, e.g., Jeremy Abbott. To use the team event as a reason or an excuse to put someone on the team is and then some.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

...... but I do feel that this year things are a bit more bleak without Gold in the picture. While Gracie never fulfilled her potential and had all sorts of issues with clean skates, she was always right up there in terms of being a contender for a podium placement at worlds (always with the caveat, if she hits) and even then when she didn't hit she was usually top 5.

I do think US women's skating has a lost a center with Gracie out of the picture. Like you say she was in the class of a Kostner or Med. The US field seems in disarray. Karen unpredictable. Mirai still subject to her demons. God love her, Ashley may just be too tired. In the ladies there is no one like Nathan who is a sure bet to be on the Oly team.

 

[haribobo]

Looking at the seasons best list, yes, I would agree with disarray, at this moment. I am really not that worried about Karen since her program was brand spanking new. If she is still struggling at Skate America, then maybe... Its a real shame that Angela Wang couldn't garner a GP spot being off the seasons best list altogether last season, but at least she has another international coming up. I think the US ladies have some life in them yet, but it is definitely a little less stunning without top form Gracie or Polina around. Pac Coast and Midwestern sectionals should be fairly competitive, I think we will have a better idea of some dark horses once we see those. I'll wait for a couple more GPs to go by...and not having the home advantage SA first in the lineup, things probably seem a little more dire at this point in the season than usual. However with the ladies field at SA this season, its not too hard to imagine a podium of no US skaters...or 3...who knows...either way, there is still plenty of talent in the US...

 

[ZilphaK]

Fewer still are able to continue investing when their skater gets up to Novice and higher levels.

In the Venn diagram of US figure skating, the intersection of "Has athletic talent" + "Drive" + "Availability of good coaching" + "Has money to fund a higher level skater" is very, very, very slim.

Some things that could fix that would be somehow switching from private lesson structure to class structure up through higher levels -- I don't see why things like MIF and jumps up through double axel and even triples couldn't be taught in groups, saving parents lots of money and keeping talented skaters in skating longer.

Clubs/rinks offering more varieties of lower-cost "package" pricing for families that includes on-ice, off-ice, ballet and ice time. (This is still a tough sell because it's mostly hockey that makes rinks money; figure skating at many rinks is a sort of "we'll give you some ice here and there, but only until a hockey tournament comes through.")

Skating becoming a college sport.

A nuclear option to force some of this would be to make all skating competitions team events, with representatives from different clubs earning spots on teams and then earning spots to qualifying competitions via points leading up to Regionals. This would encourage more collaborative coaching and possibly better pricing for students. There could be different levels of teams within a club/rink (as in gymnastics), and yes, kids would switch to better rinks/clubs (as they do in other sports) for a shot at going to Regionals/Sectionals/Nationals, etc. But by making figure skating a team event, you also open up more fundraising and sponsorship opportunities as a 501c3 that are not open to individual competitors. Right now, individual skaters have very limited opportunities at lower levels to receive tax-deductible donations (I know it's done, but the IRS says fundraising cannot inure to the benefit of individuals, only to teams.)

Anyway...those are my thoughts on solving all the problems.

 

[ilovepaydays]

Skating will NEVER become a NCAA sport. Colleges are already not wanting to keep any sport that doesn’t at least break even. Every year, even Division I colleges are dropping many men’s programs like gymnastics, swimming, cross country, track & field, etc. because of the finances. A lot of this is the result of Title IX compliance and a school having to equal the #s and scholarships for women’s programs despite almost all those programs losing money.

 

[ZilphaK]

Skating will NEVER become a NCAA sport. Colleges are already not wanting to keep any sport that doesn’t at least break even. Every year, even Division I colleges are dropping many men’s programs like gymnastics, swimming, cross country, track & field, etc. because of the finances. A lot of this is the result of Title IX compliance and a school having to equal the #s and scholarships for women’s programs despite almost all those programs losing money.

Frankly, I'm all for colleges and high schools getting out of the sports business all together and only offering intramural and club sports. Especially at high school level. As much as I'm a sports fan, I think too many parents and kids are being led to varying levels of financial difficulty, if not ruin, betting on sports as an in to education.

 

[Willin]

Some colleges are offering synchro varsity programs (Miami, Adrian, Lindenwood). Alongside that, the synchro skaters are allowed to participate in collegiate solo competitions. A lot of singles athletes are trying out for Adrian because they are really supportive of that structure - or they were when I was in college. Other synchro teams are subsidized by the university at a club varsity level, like University of Michigan. Basically, they get some money for training and some free gear from the school's athletics apparel sponsor. Cal doesn't have a synchro team, but their figure skating team is getting very good at recruitment. I've think that the university itself might play a role in this, but that might just be weird wording from the skater I heard it from.
I think Synchro or Club Figure Skating may go club varsity at more schools because it's relatively cheap to sponsor certain aspects of it (if the university has its own ice arena and an associated athletic brand), but I can't see it going full varsity.

Either way, synchro skaters aren't training to get to the Olympics in ladies singles (or probably even synchro, since it's not in the Olympics). Some top singles skaters do go on to compete collegiately (Mirai comes to mind), but for the most part they don't compete in normal collegiate competitions, only the singles championship over the summer. I do think if more top schools had skating teams it would encourage more who are right below that top level to continue. I believe MIT has a very small one, as does UCLA. Dartmouth's is (or was?) one of the top in the country. University of Michigan's is pretty good as well.

It's not going to save the US ladies. The US Ladies who are competitive internationally are those who survive without thinking much about college right away, and those who compete in college are the ones who think about college. It's two very different groups.

 

[Carolla5501]

The Russian team and the Japanese team both have shown cracks in their armor. The medal stand is not set. Let's not pretend we can predict it. 4th for Karen last year was an upset. Ashley's silver in Boston was an upset. Daleman's bronze was an upset Upsets happen.

The Olympics is a WHOLE different event. If it wasn't then Kurt Browning, Michelle Kwan, Brian Orser, etc... would all have OGM hanging in their trophy case. Kurt's a prime example. He came into the Olympics as the dominate men's skater...He had been World Champion 3 years in a row before the 92 games... where he finished 6th. He then went on t win another World Championship in 93 before the 94 games (that was the time the did the shift so the winter and summer games were in different years....) And in 94 he finished 5th.

Does the US have a shot at an Olympic Medal? Who knows... the pressure does strange things!

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Does the US have a shot at an Olympic Medal? Who knows... the pressure does strange things!

Sometimes it pays to be the underdog. Less pressure. Lower expectations.

In 2002, Hughes placed 3rd at US Nationals, yet beat Cohen (who was 2nd) and Kwan (who was 1st) to win gold in Salt Lake City.

In 2006, Meissner was 2nd at US Nationals, yet beat Cohen (who was 1st) to win gold in Calgary.

In 2010, Nagasu was 2nd at US Nationals, and placed 4th in Vancouver.

In 2016, Wagner was 3rd at US Nationals, and won silver in Boston.

 

[Seerek]

Some of twitter really having it w/Hicks' liking of some past Trump tweets. Athlete Social Media 101: she really shouldn't be replying to those faceless profiles (though credit that she's taking the high road for the most part).
This is going to be a long 2 months to Nationals.

 

[teacakes]

Well, it helps to be low key in your political views until you're no longer skating competitively unfortunately. Look at Charlie White, people used to complain how vanilla him and Meryl were. Now he's using his platform and voice for things he believes in, and he has def lost fans who are T**** supporters - look at his replies. I think he is a vile human being, and people who support him plummet in my estimations (and that's how it is for a lot of other people too). & Polina got flack too after the election because of her Insta and Snaps.

 

[GullyGirl84]

It's not just Courtney's replying, it's her DMing people/searching for references to herself when she's not even tagged/when they're not using her full name, and those people are then broadcasting the exchanges on twitter.

I'm assuming that there is something at Champs Camp about how skaters should handle social media? Figure skating twitter can get messy and the skaters are so young, they should be taught how to handle this stuff properly. Figure skaters are also more interactive with their fans on twitter than in other sports (guessing because it's a small knit community), but it's probably best that skaters not engage too much with the people who are talking about them negatively. They're public figures, and people are going to notice if they post/like certain political posts, especially in 2017. Adam and Ashley are more outspoken about their political views, but also seem 100% prepared to defend those views when it comes down to it.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Well, it helps to be low key in your political views until you're no longer skating competitively unfortunately. Look at Charlie White, people used to complain how vanilla him and Meryl were. Now he's using his platform and voice for things he believes in, and he hasn't def lost fans who are T**** supporters - look at his replies. I think he is a vile human being, and people who support him plummet in my estimations (and that's how it is for a lot of other people too). & Polina got flack too after the election because of her Insta and Snaps.

I think "he" is an interesting, dynamic, productive human being, who will return law and order and prosperity to the country, and those who do not support him or at least understand him, are either losers who do not believe in themselves, or using their platform for personal advancement or causes.

On the other note: it is not wise for competitive skaters to state their political affiliations, for many reasons.

 

[VGThuy]

That's why populist, vague stances asking people to come together for peace or to get along is probably the safest bet for all athletes even if it might piss off some of the more "sophisticated" fans who see through that.

There was a poster on GS who got all pissed off when Gracie Gold posted something celebrating the same-sex marriage court case on her Instagram. Thank goodness GG was not alone on that. Judges do pay attention but I wonder if it actually affects anything. I remember the French judge/caller liking and replying to Alex Shibutani's tweet celebrating that Supreme Court decision.

 

[Willin]

I'm a bit surprised by people being surprised that Courtney liked Trump. I thought it was pretty well known that she was a more conservative christian and politically conservative? Considering how conservative a lot of skaters' families are, I'm more surprised that some of the top US skaters are liberal! (Especially Ashley, being the double whammy of military and skating family)

While I tend to judge people on their character rather than their political views - if only because I have a lot of friends and family on both sides of the aisle - that simply isn't the case with most Americans. In fact, people are choosing where to move and making/breaking friendships based on politics. And then you have some, particularly online, who say things like "those who do not support him or at least understand him, are either losers who do not believe in themselves, or using their platform for personal advancement or causes." On both sides of the aisle. There's literally no way to win unless you remain politically neutral. If you don't stay politically neutral, you're opening yourself up to vicious criticism. You have to wonder if Courtney took that into account - if she was ready for the backlash she'd get, or if she even realized that some people look through your history of liked tweets.

As an aside, insulting people for not agreeing with you tends to make them disagree with you more, so I hope these people realize they are not "helping" Courtney change her mind.