Gracie Gold in treatment for eating disorder, depression

[Cleo1782]

I think Frank is a good one too, but I think his knowledge is more geared to pre-COP figures era, which is when his students really shone. Look, Frank is a god in the skating world and I'm not at all trying to be disrespectful, but I'm also not entirely convinced he's the one for the higher-level demands of COP as it stands now. Evan's quad and triple axel were always wonky and his lady skaters aren't exactly setting the world on fire. Even Michelle Kwan's triple lutz wasn't exactly amazing.

Okay I can sorta of agree. But at the time MK's lutz was more than acceptable. See Sasha and Nicole. I hate to give anything away but I was witness to Frank's demeanor because of where I trained. He is a very loving and great person. The reason him and Michelle parted ways was not in anyway about personality. Evan had a poor coach starting out. Debbie Stoery is her name. She was a figure skating coach in Chicago and perhaps still is? If you look her up and her students she is all about walleys and awkward open air positions. As long as Frank could make him execute it-he didn't have time to change it. Just saying....

 

[triple_toe]

Okay I can sorta of agree. But at the time MK's lutz was more than acceptable. See Sasha and Nicole. I hate to give anything away but I was witness to Frank's demeanor because of where I trained. He is a very loving and great person. The reason him and Michelle parted ways was not in anyway about personality. Evan had a poor coach starting out. Debbie Stoery is her name. She was a figure skating coach in Chicago and perhaps still is? If you look her up and her students she is all about walleys and awkward open air positions. As long as Frank could make him execute it-he didn't have time to change it. Just saying....

Oh, I know Michelle's lutz was fine for the era, which is why I'm specifically talking about now. Frank is indeed quite lovely, I've not spent long with him but you can tell. Evan's poor technique is part of why I had that big rant about technique. Technique instilled as a youngster is, as I'm sure you know, very hard to correct even in the best hands. And given the lax requirements for coaching, it's easy to hamper a talented skater who will likely jump well in spite of it, but will have trouble later on.

ETA: Cleo (and others), I really wanted to thank you for the great discussion. I've kind of erased figure skating from my life but this brought me back into posting. It's great to see a mostly measured, respectful, and compassionate conversation about these things.

 

[Cleo1782]

Oh, I know Michelle's lutz was fine for the era, which is why I'm specifically talking about now. Frank is indeed quite lovely, I've not spent long with him but you can tell. Evan's poor technique is part of why I had that big rant about technique. Technique instilled as a youngster is, as I'm sure you know, very hard to correct even in the best hands. And given the lax requirements for coaching, it's easy to hamper a talented skater who will likely jump well in spite of it, but will have trouble later on.

ETA: Cleo (and others), I really wanted to thank you for the great discussion. I've kind of erased figure skating from my life but this brought me back into posting. It's great to see a mostly measured, respectful, and compassionate conversation about these things.

I have actually loved this discussion and thank you for sharing. The nitty gritty of figure skating is pretty or very ugly. It is tough as heck. I will never for a single second regret my time skating, the people I have met, and the lifelong friends. At the same time it's not a pretty world and I moved myself completely out of this sport (except for wonderful friends and an actually love for figure skating), but I couldn't take being part of it again except for fun trips to Nats with my friends. The fact that a coach would tell a 97 lbs skater at 5'7 that she is fat is unthinkable, but my coaches grew up in the old system. I have my gold in figures, mif, and, freeskating so I will just take that as a win.

 

[bardtoob]

I think Frank is a good one too, but I think his knowledge is more geared to pre-COP figures era, which is when his students really shone. Look, Frank is a god in the skating world and I'm not at all trying to be disrespectful, but I'm also not entirely convinced he's the one for the higher-level demands of COP as it stands now. Evan's quad and triple axel were always wonky and his lady skaters aren't exactly setting the world on fire. Even Michelle Kwan's triple lutz wasn't exactly amazing.

Well, I thought Denis Ten did far better under Frank than Morozov under the IJS . . . but, then, that was probably more Frank's packaging, although D10s jumps were much more straight in the air with Frank than with Morozov.

So, counterpoint, but not a strong disagreement with you ...

--------------

I could have gone all "Hell, no! No she di'n't" about Michelle's Lutz ... but I didn't ... although it was fun to think about ... I'm getting old and mellow

Evan won the Olympics because he took advantage of how to gain points without big jump elements, knowing Plushenko would ignore then despite being capable.

 

[Aussie Willy]

If a judge/coach/friend says "you need to loose 5 lbs", why freak out and do something drastic? think for yourself: is my weight hurting my jumps/spins/etc, or is it about "looks"? If it is about "looks", then F-U.. If i myself notice that 5 lbs hurt my jumps, then its something to think about it....

No-one has the right to comment on anyone's weight, regardless of whether they are doing sport or something else. And this applies if someone is underweight, just as if they are overweight.

It is actually those small comments that do lead to eating disorders. And in a sport like figure skating that strives towards perfection, it can be quite damaging because of the type of personalities who participate.

 

[Sylvia]

Helene Elliott's column on Gracie: http://www.latimes.com/sports/olympics/la-sp-gracie-gold-elliott-20171017-story.html

 

[Tinami Amori]

No-one has the right to comment on anyone's weight, regardless of whether they are doing sport or something else.

Doctors, parents, coaches do..... if it is a constructive comment related to a specific issue which involves weight, and it should be done politely and properly, not as an accusation.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

Doctors, parents, coaches do..... if it is a constructive comment related to a specific issue which involves weight, and it should be done politely and properly, not as an accusation.

I don’t always agree with you, but we do here. Weight is a factor into a skating performance. There are ways to properly address the topic to avoid ED. Wanting a teenager to lose weight is NOT appropriate as their bodies are changing, going through hormonal spikes. Talking about good eating habits, good and healthy food, yes. On e puberty is finished, talking about weight management with a sound skating adult is possible. That is said, sometimes skaters are so cuddled that even by 20-22 years old, they are still teenagers emotionally and not yet adults.

 

[AxelAnnie]

No-one has the right to comment on anyone's weight, regardless of whether they are doing sport or something else. And this applies if someone is underweight, just as if they are overweight.

It is actually those small comments that do lead to eating disorders. And in a sport like figure skating that strives towards perfection, it can be quite damaging because of the type of personalities who participate.

Of course they have the right. You are paying for your coach to tell you what to do to be on top.

 

[overedge]

Of course they have the right. You are paying for your coach to tell you what to do to be on top.

That assumes that being at a certain weight will help you be "on top". If you read many of the posts in this thread, you'd know this is a deeply flawed assumption.

A skater is paying for a coach to give them professional and accurate advice. A coach telling a skater to lose weight just because the coach thinks it would make the skater look "better" is unprofessional and potentially dangerous.

 

[skatepixie]

I disagree. Tuk's elements are high quality if people look at her SKATES rather than body positions; body positions are not skating.

They are a factor. I'm not saying extension above all else, but alignment and musical ability isn't there either. Deep edges are great, but I often forget she has them, amid all the rest. I do admire her jumps and edges, but I still can barely watch her, and I am never moved or entertained by her.

There are other skaters who lack extreme Cohen-esque flexibility, but still have pleasant positions and are nice to look at. Everyone from Peggy Fleming to Yuka Sato.

 

[skatepixie]

No-one has the right to comment on anyone's weight, regardless of whether they are doing sport or something else. And this applies if someone is underweight, just as if they are overweight.

It is actually those small comments that do lead to eating disorders. And in a sport like figure skating that strives towards perfection, it can be quite damaging because of the type of personalities who participate.

Eh, part of the sport is packaging. In any profession where aesthetics are a part of it, people need to develop a thick skin, because it may/will come up. Now, for minors, it might be best to address a concern via the parents. But it will always be a factor.

Imagine you are an actor or actress -- would you rather be told "lose 5 lbs" or "lose 2 inches off your waist" and the role is yours -- or just not know why you never got the part? Taylor Lautner famously had to change his body shape and composition to keep a role, and he did it. They didn't even want to give him the chance, thinking there was just no way he could pull it off -- but he did. Granted, what he needed to do was gain a lot of bulk, but he did it.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Of course they have the right. You are paying for your coach to tell you what to do to be on top.

Totally disagree. You are paying for them to teach you how to skate and to improve your skating.

 

[Japanfan]

And how do you know that it isn't measured by a doctor?

Regardless, if your theory were true, we would be seeing rampant reports of disordered eating among athletes in all Olympic sports that don't have a weight requirement. I certainly haven't seen them except for athletes competing in figure skating and gymnastics.

Any athlete for whom lowered weight can confer a competitive advantage may be at increased risk for an eating disorder. Studies among jockeys find myriad instances of dangerous behavior. One study revealed that 69% of jockeys skip meals, 67% use "hot box" sauna techniques for cutting weight, 30% induce vomiting, and 14% use laxatives to control their body weight (23). (24).

The movie 'Sea Biscuit ' was about a jockey, based on a true story IIRC. The jockey (Toby Maguire) actually ate a tapeworm to keep his weight down.

 

[aftershocks]

Gracie Gold brave in taking leave from figure skating to tackle personal issues (column by Eric Adelson): https://sports.yahoo.com/gracie-gol...skating-tackle-personal-issues-193414906.html

"The effort of the Olympian is usually well-documented: training, practice runs, the weight room. Even the daily life of a hopeful gets coverage, through behind-the-scenes footage of family time and part-time jobs. Yet another kind of effort is almost never seen: therapy sessions, late-night talks with coaches, the struggle to get out of bed in the morning. Gracie Gold is making that effort, and we may never know how hard it is for her... she is now more of an Olympian than ever."

Helene Elliott's column on Gracie: http://www.latimes.com/sports/olympics/la-sp-gracie-gold-elliott-20171017-story.html

"Wagner said during the U.S. Olympic media summit in Park City, Utah.
'In figure skating it is so easy to tie body-image issues into the ideal body that we need to have, and that line gets very blurred. I have always had a very healthy relationship with my body and I’ve always seen it as a tool. And so for me, I don’t weigh myself. I go off of what feels good. I know when I’m in shape and I know when I’m out of shape. And I think that for Gracie, taking a step back and actually taking time to focus on herself as an athlete, that is one of the hardest decisions to make. It really just is a statement as to how strong that girl is, and people don’t give her enough credit for that.'"

 

[SmallFairy]

I want to express how much i wish the best for Gracie!! It's such a good thing to be open about these subjects, though extremely hard, and I'm so glad she gets professional help. I hope she will go on to have a happy life, skating or not skating. Hang in there Gracie, we are sending all the good vibes possible!!!

And thank you all for the thoughtful, interesting discussion here. I'm always encouraged when I'm watching high level diving, as there are athletes in lots of different shapes and sizes fighting for medals

 

[gkelly]

Imagine you are an actor or actress -- would you rather be told "lose 5 lbs" or "lose 2 inches off your waist" and the role is yours

I once apprenticed at a summer stock company where the director told one of the other apprentices (who had a great singing voice and an average build) "Lose 15 pounds in the next 3 weeks and the lead role in the next show is yours." She starved herself for those 3 weeks.

This wasn't even a movie, she wasn't even getting paid AFAIK. The role would be great experience and look great on her resume.

Even if that experience had no effect on her mental health, it could well have messed up her metabolism or had other negative physical effects. One of several reasons I lost respect for that director.

 

[nimi]

I had vague memories of reading about wrestlers with eating disorders, so I did a bit of googling and found this article.

Interesting read! Also, this quote from that article is pretty relevant to the discussion about "tell the skater to lose five pounds" and appropriate coaching style:

Coaching styles also may influence the genesis of eating disorders in athletes. One study examined athletes' responses to two coaching vignettes, one that emphasized health, while the other focused more strictly upon performance. Athletes were asked to respond to the vignettes with specific reference to their attitudes toward their own body weight. Both male and female athletes responded more negatively to the performance-dominated vignette. Those athletes preferentially exhibited body image anxiety, desire to lose weight, and fear of being fat (8). These findings support the implication that coaching styles may have a profound influence upon the genesis of eating disorders among athletes.

I remember when there used to be a lot of discussion & articles & research (& more research) about the "anorexia epidemic" ski jumping had, back when women ski jumpers weren't even allowed in the Olympics. Their Federation changed some relevant rules & regulations to discourage extreme low weight in competitors and the situation improved.

Relevant quote from a NYT article from a few years ago:

“The new rules are better, especially for children who want to be ski jumpers and start too early to get less weight,” said Andreas Goldberger, a retired two-time Olympic medalist from Austria. “It’s a problem for the mind. You get fifth place or third place and someone says, ‘If you lose two kilos, you might win.’ You start to lose the feeling of what’s important.”

 

[AxelAnnie]

Totally disagree. You are paying for them to teach you how to skate and to improve your skating.

Exactly! And part of that includes weight as one of many factors.

 

[gkelly]

It includes physical fitness. Which can be measured more accurately in other ways than by weight on a scale.

For example, muscle is heavier than fat, so a skater who becomes more fit may actually end up weighing a bit more than when they were flabby.

The only time the actual number of pounds a skater weighs might be relevant is if they need to be lifted. But even then, technique and the strength of the lifter as well as the liftee are also important factors.

 

[Cleo1782]

It includes physical fitness. Which can be measured more accurately in other ways than by weight on a scale.

For example, muscle is heavier than fat, so a skater who becomes more fit may actually end up weighing a bit more than when they were flabby.

The only time the actual number of pounds a skater weighs might be relevant is if they need to be lifted. But even then, technique and the strength of the lifter as well as the liftee are also important factors.

I have heard from a couple of pairs skaters that it's easier to lift a girl that has weight evenly distributed. For example, it can be harder to lift a girl who carries most of her weight in her hips and thighs even if the girl is like 88lbs, but can be easier to lift a girl that is 100 lbs that has her weight evenly distributed. Plus the women's strength is almost just as important. She needs to help keep her core strong and be able to assist with lifts as well. Obviously, I am not a male pair skater so I don't know, but it makes sense to me.

 

[Carolla5501]

I have heard from a couple of pairs skaters that it's easier to lift a girl that has weight evenly distributed. For example, it can be harder to lift a girl who carries most of her weight in her hips and thighs even if the girl is like 88lbs, but can be easier to lift a girl that is 100 lbs that has her weight evenly distributed. Plus the women's strength is almost just as important. She needs to help keep her core strong and be able to assist with lifts as well. Obviously, I am not a male pair skater so I don't know, but it makes sense to me.

Ashley Cain's partner said she's incredibly easy to lift because she is so strong and knows how to assist so he's not having to muscle her into the air which fits with this

 

[Cleo1782]

Ashley Cain's partner said she's incredibly easy to lift because she is so strong and knows how to assist so he's not having to muscle her into the air which fits with this

Exactly. I would play around with my (experienced) pair friends and do lifts and they said it wasn't hard to lift me even being so tall, but it obviously has some effect on twists and other elements. And we weren't doing more than just press lifts and stuff. Pair guys are so strong they can usually adapt. Being tiny doesn't mean you can assist lifts always. I remember one year at Nationals (2011?) when Mary Beth Marley tripped and fell and Rockne literally picked her up and muscled her up to a lift. Amazing. But we are off topic lol.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Exactly! And part of that includes weight as one of many factors.

No it is not. It is about technique and skating skills. I still hear about coaches commenting on skater's weight and it horrifies me. Unless the coach is a qualified dietitian then they should not comment.

However a good diet and healthy eating is important to athletes and that should be the focus. That is where seeing a qualified dietitian is important. But again it should not be based on weight but rather what is good for the skater to give them the fuel to compete and train effectively.

 

[bardtoob]

Unless the coach is a qualified dietitian then they should not comment.

Hmmm . . . that makes me think a good solution could be to have EVERY SKATER, so there is not shame involved, at a certain level or above have a consultation with a dietitian, somebody who purposefully is not part of the coaching team or family structure, who will give the skaters a private independent sports nutrition plan in writing, including establishing a healthy competitive weight range with both an upper and lower bound. Then, if the family or coach feel there is a need to enforce anything, they can reference the written plan made by an expert or send the skater for a follow-up visit.

 

[AxelAnnie]

No it is not. It is about technique and skating skills. I still hear about coaches commenting on skater's weight and it horrifies me. Unless the coach is a qualified dietitian then they should not comment.

However a good diet and healthy eating is important to athletes and that should be the focus. That is where seeing a qualified dietitian is important. But again it should not be based on weight but rather what is good for the skater to give them the fuel to compete and train effectively.

As had been said more eloquently up thread. Weight, height, strength, speed, body type - are all factors in skating. It all goes together in a "formula" of what works for each skater. It all works together. You hire a coach to help you find the "formula" that will lead you to success. You cannot ignore any of the factors.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Hmmm . . . that makes me think a good solution could be to have EVERY SKATER, so there is not shame involved, at a certain level or above have a consultation with a dietitian, somebody who purposefully is not part of the coaching team or family structure, who will give the skaters a private independent sports nutrition plan in writing, including establishing a healthy competitive weight range with both an upper and lower bound. Then, if the family or coach feel there is a need to enforce anything, they can reference the written plan made by an expert or send the skater for a follow-up visit.

My oh my. If there is "body shaming" over weight, then is there also "height shaming", "build shaming" "jump shaming", etc. Strength, speed and weight are the few things that the skater and coach can impact. The other things simply have to be correctly applied into the "formula".

It is not body shaming to tell someone they would skate better if they weighed 5 lbs less. That is not telling anyone they are fat, ugly, or anything else bad. Just like telling a skater they need more height in their jump to execute a particular jump.

 

[bardtoob]

My oh my. If there is "body shaming" over weight, then is there also "height shaming", "build shaming" "jump shaming", etc. Strength, speed and weight are the few things that the skater and coach can impact. The other things simply have to be correctly applied into the "formula".

It is not body shaming to tell someone they would skate better if they weighed 5 lbs less. That is not telling anyone they are fat, ugly, or anything else bad. Just like telling a skater they need more height in their jump to execute a particular jump.

I do not think SOME shame is necessarily bad. However . . . SKATING PARENTS ARE BAT SHIT CRAZY SO THE NORMAL RULES DO NOT APPLY TO THEM.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I do not think SOME shame is necessarily bad. However . . . SKATING PARENTS ARE BAT SHIT CRAZY SO THE NORMAL RULES DO NOT APPLY TO THEM.

Probably true. You should see some of the Horse Show Moms - Pony Ring! Perhaps they should all get together!

 

[overedge]

My oh my. If there is "body shaming" over weight, then is there also "height shaming", "build shaming" "jump shaming", etc. Strength, speed and weight are the few things that the skater and coach can impact. The other things simply have to be correctly applied into the "formula".

It is not body shaming to tell someone they would skate better if they weighed 5 lbs less. That is not telling anyone they are fat, ugly, or anything else bad. Just like telling a skater they need more height in their jump to execute a particular jump.

What part of "weight does not equal fitness" are you having trouble understanding?