U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

[Marco]

The thing about Max is he is somewhat stuck in the middle. He isn't a complete skater who can get high GOEs/PCS like Jason and Adam, nor is he a crazy quad jumper with high BVs from difficult [and consistent] quads like Nathan and Vincent.

He can absolutely make the team, but my view is he will need to be very clean at Nationals and hope for two of these four to falter. He doesn't quite control his own destiny IMO.

 

[aftershocks]

No, he wasn't.

No, it wasn't.

No, he didn't.

IMO 'Yes he was,' 'Yes it was,' and 'Yes he did,' @misskarne, although at 2016 U.S. Nationals, I was rooting for Max. Indeed, Max has always been a great sportsperson who cares about his fellow competitors. In 2016, Max hugged Adam and extended congratulations to Adam on winning his first senior National championship. But Yes, you can as usual disagree and be disagreeable at the same time.

 

[misskarne]

IMO 'Yes he was,' 'Yes it was,' and 'Yes he did,' @misskarne, although at 2016 U.S. Nationals, I was rooting for Max. Indeed, Max has always been a great sportsperson who cares about his fellow competitors. In 2016, Max hugged Adam and extended congratulations to Adam on winning his first senior National championship. But Yes, you can as usual disagree and be disagreeable at the same time.

Adam wasn't underscored in the SP at 2015 US Nationals. He was given < for the 4Lz and -3 GOE, but two of his spins were only level 2s. He wasn't underscored.

You're right, Max is always a great sportsman. He'd never roll his eyes at a camera when other skaters' scores come up. He'd never retweet nasty comments about other skaters. He never complains or makes insinuations about the scoring even when he has right to.

 

[aftershocks]

While I have my preferences, I think it is too early to make predictions. But I think the GP/GPF will be crucial... any US skaters that manage to place well there will likely be named to the Oly team, based on "body of work"... regardless of placement at Nationals (as much as I dislike that possibility).

In defense of Vincent: I do think he is making big strides artistically, and I was really pleased to see that he landed two spot on quads at Finlandia--toe loop and flip--absolutely rotated and clean.

I personally am not making any predictions. I gave my picks along with saying 'if everyone skates well' (which doesn't often happen). Plus realistically guys with quads will tend to have the edge in the scoring. Also, artistry and maturity aren't usually fairly rewarded in this era of 'quads are everything.' Unless as a mature artist, you have consistent quads, which is not always the case. Quads can boost PCS too as we've seen, whether warranted or not.

I feel that Vincent has always shown a precocious ability to express himself creatively, and he's enjoyable to watch. At the same time, I think he lacks a bit of maturity and he has room to grow and to gain more experience. Vincent was wonderful at 2017 junior Worlds, especially in light of the fact that he was not one of the favorites to win. Getting on the podium at U.S. Nationals was an unexpected bonus for Vincent -- he acknowledged that himself. It's been nice to see him buoyed by his success and he's been building on that success. Still, he has room for growth in polishing, fine-tuning, and learning how to fill out and extend his movements. With growth he will gain more speed and power too.

More than one person will obviously be disappointed re going to the Olympics. I just hope 2018 men's event at U.S. Nationals is a great competition, and that those who skate well and don't get selected to the Olympic team, will be given opportunities to compete at 4CCs and Worlds.

 

[olympic]

I am being as neutral as possible about this but I am curious. In this section, it seems that you demand a higher standard of Max than you do for Adam and Jason for that third spot. How come

Because of PCS or the notion that Adam and Jason have better SS, CH, IN, etc.

I personally am not holding Max to a higher standard, but I'm just reading the cards that are on the table.

 

[olympic]

That's been my point all along, or at least a part of it. I honestly don't think or buy into the belief that Max has a tougher road ahead of him than either Adam or Jason. That is a built-in misconception. Max is currently in a neck-and-neck race with Adam and Jason. Maybe a tad bit ahead of them in certain situations, and especially with his TES advantage. Now, if he messes up his jumps on a fairly regular basis, well, then, we have a different story, but that's with any of the men who are considered to be part of the Oly team mix.

It all comes down to bias and the mindset of preconceived notions that I've been commenting on and warning against especially when it comes to USFS. Then need to absolutely resist automatically and unfairly placing a skater behind the eight ball right from the get-go - no matter his age or how long he has been competing, etc. Of course, to expect or request neutrality from the fans goes directly against the grain of being a fan... And, it will never happen. USFS, on the other hand, they should know better.

I say this as someone that like's skaters that show raw power and speed: Max might have the TES advantage, but Jason and Adam have a PCS advantage. To keep up his TES advantage, Max must be clean because even on the TES side w/ multiple quads, cuz Jason and Adam get good GOE on the jumps they do, even if not quads. That is why I think Max has it a little tougher. It doesn't mean it is impossible for him to beat them.

Thanks for helping create a dramatic thread

 

[VGThuy]

Max can build up better PCS (if not as high or even "close" to Jason and Adam) if he just skates well throughout the GP series and let his TES do the talking. He'll still have to deliver at U.S. Nationals because even with a great GP series, I don't think his body of work will let him afford to place 4th or lower at Nationals and still make the team.

 

[Dobre]

\
I find it interesting that posters are vehemently arguing that there's a "wait your turn" mentality going on, when really, it's exactly the opposite. Look how immediately Nathan and Vincent have become the "faces". Look how immediately Nathan got the sponsorships. Look how immediately the USFS have jumped to promote them, as if the men they had before weren't marketable. If anything, the exact opposite is happening - that people are quickly tossing aside the older men in favour of the shiny new young toys.

Nothing immediate about it. Nathan defeated the National Champion at the start of the season two years before winning the title, and there was precious little press. He stayed in juniors instead of fighting to be selected for the SA spot. (Which, of course, he could have been as he had the highest summer scores of athletes competing as seniors on the national scene). He performed essentially equivalent jump content in the free to the 4CC Champion during the JGP that season. No one outside skating noticed. He landed 4 quads at Nationals. I didn't see a single Nathan commercial. (Athletes in the hospital aren't very primed for salesmanship). And as far as I can recall, there was no huge fluff piece or story during the 2016 Worlds about him missing the event or the slew of injuries facing the U.S. Men's team. The fluff piece about the injury didn't come out until a year later after he'd bested the World and Olympic Champions in the FS head-to-head in competition.

Vincent finished second at U.S. Nationals last season and was not selected--even conditionally--on the World team. In MANY countries--definitely a country like Australia--he would have been selected contingent upon earning the TES minimums. In fact, in a smaller country with fewer athletes, he would likely have been encouraged to compete both at Junior Worlds and Senior Worlds. He qualified for the JGPF the year before and finished 5th at Junior Worlds, less than a point off the podium. No hype. And there's no real hype now. He scored over 90 in the short at his first summer event, just defeated the Worlds bronze medalist in the FS at a Challenger, and no one is picking him to win anything yet. We're waiting to see what happens with Vincent; but if he starts knocking off contenders, it will be because he did the work and lands superior technical difficulty in competition. Not because USFS fell in love with a shiny new toy.

 

[Sylvia]

The South China Morning Post (based in Hong Kong) published an article last month about Vincent after the Team USA media summit about his upcoming Grand Prix debut in Beijing: http://www.scmp.com/sport/other-spo...or-figure-skating-world-champion-vincent-zhou

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

He was in 2014. Why should it be any different now? Joshua's JWC was no less outstanding than Vincent's.

Because that JWC wasnt producing the quads that this one is and had not many accolades that next season. Um-kay?

and there were only 2 spots, not 3. With 3 spots its a different ballgame, more than enough room for Vincent. And honestly IMO has earned his ticket already.

 

[misskarne]

Because that JWC wasnt producing the quads that this one is and had not many accolades that next season. Um-kay?

and there were only 2 spots, not 3. With 3 spots its a different ballgame, more than enough room for Vincent. And honestly IMO has earned his ticket already.

No, that JWC had landed a quad in Junior competition at a time when that was really not common and for a US man to do it was even less so (Max was literally the only US man at the time landing quads consistently). That JWC was polished and graceful and elegant and lovely and very much a Senior on the PCS front. That JWC finished 5th on GP debut at a time when that was considered a respectable debut finish then sprained his ankle. That JWC had also won the pewter medal while competing as a Junior internationally (and probably should have won the bronze at that Nationals).

Oh, and that JWC was actually rotating all of his jumps, too.

Vincent hasn't had "many accolades" this season either. He has not "earned his ticket already". He hasn't even scored higher than three other US men!

 

[skatingfan26]

The South China Morning Post (based in Hong Kong) published an article last month about Vincent after the Team USA media summit about his upcoming Grand Prix debut in Beijing: http://www.scmp.com/sport/other-spo...or-figure-skating-world-champion-vincent-zhou

In the article it's said that he already finished high school in an online programme. I thought in the US one usually finishes high school at the age of 18. But he's only 16, turning 17 in October. Is it normal to finish high school that much ahead of time in an online programme? (I'm no U.S.American - so I don't know about these things.)

 

[Sylvia]

There was an article published in June 2015 (when Vincent returned to skating after 2 seasons off) that mentioned he had skipped 2 grades before he was supposed to start (eta: his junior year) at a public high school in Colorado Springs.

 

[skatingfan26]

There was an article published in June 2015 (when Vincent returned to skating after 2 seasons off) that mentioned he had skipped 2 grades before he was supposed to start at a public high school in Colorado Springs.

Thanks!

 

[skatesindreams]

There was a time when placement in school was done by testing; and "skipping" grades was rather common.
It went out of favor for a while.
However, with the rise of "alternative" education; it's not unusual, again.

 

[DDNatalia]

In the article it's said that he already finished high school in an online programme. I thought in the US one usually finishes high school at the age of 18. But he's only 16, turning 17 in October. Is it normal to finish high school that much ahead of time in an online programme? (I'm no U.S.American - so I don't know about these things.)

He's well known to be an excellent student. IIRC when he was out for a spell as a junior, he took advantage of that period to drive forward with his academics. Not surprised he's 'ahead of normal' pace from a basic education standpoint. Balancing world class senior elite skating with a meaningful collegiate academic experience on the other hand, will present a completely different level of challenges, especially if he continues to bounce between Colorado Springs and California. It's simply a lot to juggle.

 

[Tavi]

Gosh, I have to admit I'm a little surprised by all the dire warnings about the dangers of holding back young, talented, hungry, skaters; the unfairness of holding up seasoned, but apparently - in some people's minds - over the hill skaters; and the above-it-all pronouncements that many of us are such ubers that we unfairly criticize other skaters as a form of politicking. I mean, are USFS staff members and ISU judges reading this forum for guidance?

I also find it strange anyone would argue that Nathan and Vincent aren't getting enough media attention or support. USFS has been featuring fluff pieces on Nathan for how many years now? Vincent was invited to the NBC photo shoot in April and the media summit in September? I think if you look back pre-Sochi, you'll see that neither Jason nor Josh received similar support. Neither were ever hyped. And I don't see how the quads/ no quads or two spots versus three spots argument is really relevant. After all, quadless Jason was only a few points out of third after the SP in Sochi, and he made the final flight, without any support from USFS.

 

[katmari]

delete

 

[analia]

To say USFS doesn't support Brown is pure fiction......
Men's discipline is kind of a marketing vacuum for USFS anyway. Lysacek is about as famous as Gracie Gold. Having a Johnny Weir does more harm to USFS' presumably family-oriented marketing strategy than good. Anybody notices that Brown hasn't gotten a big endorsement deal at all? Nathan already has a few. And yet USFS never passed Brown up for assignments.

 

[jlai]

Endorsements go to those whom companies think have a shot at medalling at the Olympics. Of course, they get that wrong a lot, but I think that is generally the idea.

 

[Bellanca]

To say USFS doesn't support Brown is pure fiction......

It is. Jason is fully supported by USFS, fully supported, and he will continue to be so.

 

[kwanfan1818]

He wasn't always supported by USFS: Kori Ade said in her first TSL interview that USFS wanted Brown to go back to JGP (and maybe Jr. Worlds) in 2013-14, and she had to convince them to submit him for senior GP, and that part of the discussion was that the Brown team wouldn't do anything to jeopardize the two US Men from regaining three spots.

Which is why Aaron got the second spot at 2014 Worlds. So, yes, USFS does tell coaches, if not skaters, directly that their skaters should wait their turn when it suits them.

 

[Mrs. P]

Anybody notices that Brown hasn't gotten a big endorsement deal at all? Nathan already has a few. And yet USFS never passed Brown up for assignments.

Endorsements go to those whom companies think have a shot at medalling at the Olympics. Of course, they get that wrong a lot, but I think that is generally the idea.

Jason has an endorsement deal with Deloitte, which is a big multi-national tax and auditing company: https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pag...eloitte-us-olympic-committee-sponsorship.html

(But yikes at this news: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...r-containing-emails-from-across-us-government)

And I agree that he's generally supported now compared to four years ago leading up to Sochi. USOC loves him. He's all over their Team USA marketing material and has done a few promos with them. His enthusiasm for representing Team USA and the Olympic movement is a draw, I'm sure.

 

[Bellanca]

Which is why Aaron got the second spot at 2014 Worlds. So, yes, USFS does tell coaches, if not skaters, directly that their skaters should wait their turn when it suits them.

And that is precisely what I have been saying about USFS and the "wait your turn" dilemma and/or mentality. It does exist and is alive and well. Something to keep an eye out for this season. A healthy dose of calculation is also in play, as USFS already has a pretty good idea which skaters they would like to see on the team. Lots of outside influences, unfortunately, will help dictate what happens. Also, never underestimate sentimental conditions inside the organization and the desire to see one or more skaters go to the Olympics because of this.

I agree on 2014 and their desire to send Jason back to the JGP. Like I said in another thread, the chess pieces are in play, but at this moment, Jason does enjoy the support of USFS. Could this change? Maybe, but for now, he will continue to get their support. However, TBTH, it can be a fickle situation.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Also, presumably, the power of the clubs and coaches.

 

[Willin]

@kwanfan1818 It's kinda astonishing how much people discount the power of certain clubs/coaches. It's not some conspiracy where they control USFS, but they certainly advocate for things that give themselves an advantage (ie. about testing, competition eligibility, funding, etc.). Not to mention having a powerful/well-respected coach can make the difference in getting good assignments or better training resources from USFSA.

Hearing about the Tom Z./Kori Ade drama from the TSL interview with Ade highlights this. Although likely overblown, like much drama TSL discusses, it sounds bad in a way that can't really be overblown.

I've seen the dramatic effects of that in synchro - causing hardship to most small clubs because the decisions were made only by the top clubs/coaches.

 

[el henry]

I don’t mind folks saying that the USFS is “supporting” Jason if supporting means using Jason in publicity. He’s a photographer’s dream.

If “supporting” means giving Jason assignments he didn’t earn, awarding him points at comps that his skating hasn’t merited, or in any way some kind of “favoritism”? As my SW Philly mama would say, shovel that happy horse manure somewhere else cause we ain’t got room for it here.

Particularly if it refers to some sort of unproven theory that “USFS” or “TPTB” conspired to hold this poor, striving youngsters down for undeserving “old” favorites like Jason. I don’t see any elite male skater now who is with some unknown and underfunded coach, and I have seen NO youngster held back. And I’m following the JGP with great interest this year, so I know my US men youngsters.

And honey, if you can earn gold by your skating in an international comp, Nathan Broadcasting Company shall be the result, and USFS will jump on the train.

 

[VGThuy]

@kwanfan1818 It's kinda astonishing how much people discount the power of certain clubs/coaches. It's not some conspiracy where they control USFS, but they certainly advocate for things that give themselves an advantage (ie. about testing, competition eligibility, funding, etc.). Not to mention having a powerful/well-respected coach can make the difference in getting good assignments or better training resources from USFSA.

Hearing about the Tom Z./Kori Ade drama from the TSL interview with Ade highlights this. Although likely overblown, like much drama TSL discusses, it sounds bad in a way that can't really be overblown.

I've seen the dramatic effects of that in synchro - causing hardship to most small clubs because the decisions were made only by the top clubs/coaches.

I wonder if all of that sometimes makes winning nationals in a seriously close contest a bigger deal personally (if not objectively or rationally speaking) than Worlds depending on the context like if you are not from a big club or have a big name coach or even part of the country that is represented well in the org. Worlds and Olympics are obviously the cream of the crop titles, but some times Nationals can be more of a personal victory since there’s so much to overcome when it comes to winning over local officials, favoritism of certain clubs, coaches, etc. in a community that you were “brought up” in.

 

[aftershocks]

Veterans should not be held up and newbies should not be held down, or vice-versa.

Depending on the circumstances, the above can happen, but scoring is generally based on reputation and politics. I don't think it's ever as cut-and-dried as simply 'veteran' vs 'newbie' because too many other factors are involved. There are cases where favorites have been given breaks or placed ahead of competitors who may have performed better, as I mentioned earlier. Under the old system, very talented young skaters when new to the scene quite often did not receive deserving scores against veterans (Midori Ito 1988 Olympics; Michelle Kwan 1995 Worlds). That was then and things have changed a bit re the scoring and federation clout and politics.

I don't have any issue with veterans vs. newbies if performance level is consistent with technical ability and scoring is fair across the board, which it rarely is. Figure skating is never that simple. Politics and rep (in addition to how skaters perform on the ice) tends to hold more sway in how scoring pans out. It seems to me that Carolina Kostner is receiving a lot of credit as a veteran and a mature artist, despite her technical skills not being at their peak. Meanwhile, skaters who have talent but who may not have been as consistent over the years and thus do not have rep will be low-balled when they skate better than expected (and that's what happened to Angela Wang at Finlandia).

There are plenty of Russian skaters who are automatically lauded for traditional 'rep' and snobby 'aesthetic' reasons, or because of good skating skills, despite not necessarily being consistent technically, or interesting presentation-wise. I find Sotskova a hard-worker, but also a snooze-fest to watch. Zabijako/Enbert are long-limbed and nice looking but still have on the training wheels and are rather bland, which does not keep the judges from inordinately rewarding them. Tarasova/Morosov have it all, except for lousy programs and no on-ice chemistry nor captivating presentation skills.

I think 'newbies' who deliver on all cylinders should get the scores. On the men's side, newbies who perform great should get good scores, but that includes being accurately scored on PCS in areas where they have room for improvement.

Interestingly, in Nathan's case, the knee-jerk tendency among fans of other skaters has been to say that Nathan is weak on PCS, which I think is a clear over-exaggeration. While Nathan has had room for growth performance-wise, he certainly has always been far ahead musically and he's grown tremendously the past couple of seasons in his understanding of how to fill out and extend his movements vs some other skaters of his generation, such as Boyang Jin. With a lot of help and attention, Boyang has been improving the past few seasons, but he still skates over his music and he's not as authentic a skater artistically as either Nathan or Vincent. Of course, Lori Nichol, who is choreographing for both Boyang and Nathan this season, has seemingly been inspired by working with Nathan to create some similar music themes and movements for both Boyang and Nathan. Mikhail Kolyada is a gorgeously expressive skater, but right now his range seems limited and he's been inconsistent technically.

I don't see Nathan as a newbie because he's been competing and winning against guys older than him for a long time. Nathan competes like a veteran, and he certainly has some PCS chops. Plus, last season Nathan completely changed the senior men's landscape. I notice this season that Lori Nichol and Shae Lynn Bourne have brought out some of the wonderful aspects of Nathan's unique style and personality. Having seen Boyang's new programs, it certainly looks as if Nichol was inspired by working with Nathan to try and give Boyang some similar moves. I guess imitation is the highest compliment. But Nathan does Nathan better.

This mentality favors placing an athlete on an Olympic team for sentimental reasons,

Who was ever placed on a team for sentimental reasons, in your estimation? I'm not saying it never happened, but I'd like some examples from you. I gave you specific examples in my previous posts and you haven't mentioned who you are thinking of with your pronouncements. Any recognition that Jason and Adam receive will be based upon their talent and hard work and their worth as champions and exemplary members of Team USA, and NOT for any so-called 'sentimental' reasons. Neither did Ross Miner receive any assignments this year for 'sentimental' reasons. Ross has been busting his ass working hard and taking risks and trying to give it all he has in what is reportedly his final eligible season.

 

[aftershocks]

Having a Johnny Weir does more harm to USFS' presumably family-oriented marketing strategy than good.

Hmmm, in what way though? And who decides this? Is that the case for Adam Rippon too? Was it the case for Brian Boitano? Is it the case for Eric Radford in Canada? I'd like to be clear on what exactly you are saying.

FYI, Johnny Weir was an inspiration for his entire generation of skaters, as well as a creative role model for those skaters of this preceding generation, whether it's popular to actually say so or not. As well, Johnny continues to skate and to guest star in a number of shows internationally, and domestically at club exhibitions, in addition to his color commentating duties for NBC. Johnny also has a number of friends and admirers within the skating community, many of them his former competitors.