The Dance Hall, Part 4: To Helsinki & Back -- Seeking Rhumba Magic ...

I prefer this direction though I still think it can be improved. From 2010-2014, the athletic lifts seldom went with the music and often times were hideous to watch due to how laborious it was. Now I wish we could do something with all the spread eagle positions and woman’s blade on man’s thigh. Leveled lifts are so tedious.
 
chapis said:
I doubt if other couples made such basic lifts, they would be receiving high marks. I do not understand why this lift https://youtu.be/vXH9NUYeLKA?t=70 deserves 5.82, while this one deserves 6.2 https://youtu.be/GNgbCDR2FM0?t=55
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The second one is smoother (particularly the exit) , but agreed it's also conservative with the difficulty. I think we also know that the top few skaters in each discipline receive more generous GOE for doing elements than the lower-ranked ones. Unfortunately that never seems to change. On the other hand this one seems to be a code use of the code:
https://youtu.be/GNgbCDR2FM0?t=206
 
millyskate said:
The second one is smoother (particularly the exit) , but agreed it's also conservative with the difficulty. I think we also know that the top few skaters in each discipline receive more generous GOE for doing elements than the lower-ranked ones. Unfortunately that never seems to change. On the other hand this one seems to be a code use of the code:
https://youtu.be/GNgbCDR2FM0?t=206
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I don´t think so, and Elliana´s exit is perfect IMO, plus, she is doing it by herself, at worst they should be getting the same score. I think this has more to do with your other theory, same like Worlds 2017 in the FD, both P/C and V/M got higher score in twizzles than Maia and Alex.
 
The first one is impressive in terms what she’s doing, but the form on that position is pretty ugly to me and I wonder what the hell does them being in an almost 69 position have to do with the music and interpretation. It doesn’t, it’s just a mindless “ta-da” lift to try to get more points. It’s not just a code thing, ice dance was suffering from that in the early to mid 2000s under 6.0 as well. I find Guillaume and Gabby’s execution to be better which is what GOE should all be about not determining difficulty (caller’s job).
 
forthewin said:
I'm no judge but a viewer. I think many audience like me wanna see more exciting elements which will increase the popularity of ice dance. I think P/C have been lowering the standard of ID technical requirements in the last couple of years. No dance holds, simpler lifts, etc. Sure, it doesn't matter to them as long as they got the marks. But is it really good for the development of ID in the long run?
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I'm a viewer too and what I like in Ice Dance is the consistency, the cohesiveness of a program and the lift who are appropriate to the music. Athletism for athletism is not easy on the eyes at all. And exciting moment are not necessarily athletics one. The first lift of Build a Home for example is exciting/big Wow factor to me.

chapis said:
I doubt if other couples made such basic lifts, they would be receiving high marks. I do not understand why this lift https://youtu.be/vXH9NUYeLKA?t=70 deserves 5.82, while this one deserves 6.2 https://youtu.be/GNgbCDR2FM0?t=55
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PC could do the first one too, you know. But the jarring difference between both lifts definitely is the coverage and the speed. She has a more difficult position to maintain, yes. I wish PC could change that lift though, it's my major problem with their FD.
 
So because a lift looks difficult, you'll give it level 4 ? ROTFL.
IMO Ice dance was beginning to look too much like pairs, and that kind of lift has to go. Anyway, as you'll learn, it's an on and off thing in ice dance. We are on the off site for the moment, then it'll come back as it has always done.

IMO I don't care at all. I want lifts that tell something in a choreo. And not a lift to put an element there because they have to do it.
 
GreenGan said:
PC could do the first one too, you know. But the jarring difference between both lifts definitely is the coverage and the speed. She has a more difficult position to maintain, yes. I wish PC could change that lift though, it's my major problem with their FD.
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and let´s ignore that Alex is doing a more pronounced curve and use more his edges.

And I think if to the ISU or judges don´t like acrobatics lifts they should be more clear, put it in the rules, acrobatics moves are not a natural position, obviously an acrobatic lift is more difficult to fit the mood of a program than only to be sitting above your partner and looking pretty.

It seems favoritism, judges liked D/W, so acrobatics lifts were applauded, now that they are gone, acrobatics lifts are bad taste :confused::rolleyes:
 
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MarieM said:
IMO I don't care at all. I want lifts that tell something in a choreo. And not a lift to put an element there because they have to do it.
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Plz enlighten us what exactly the lifts in MS tell for the music in the choreography. Because I don't see any relations at all.
 
chapis said:
and let´s ignore that Alex is doing a more pronounced curve and use more his edges.

And I think if to the ISU or judges don´t like acrobatics lifts they should be more clear, put it in the rules, acrobatics moves are not a natural position, obviously an acrobatic lift is more difficult to fit the mood of a program than only to be sitting above your partner and looking pretty.

It seems favoritism, judges liked D/W, so acrobatics lifts were applauded, now that they are gone, acrobatics lifts are bad taste :confused::rolleyes:
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I think they just want more variety and for teams to do the best lifts that match their strengths and tastes. Plus, we all know how boring things become after a few years of seeing the same style of anything. Anyway, Chock/Bates get pretty high GOEs for their lifts right? They arguably have the most acrobatic lifts in the field right now.
 
Again though, maybe it's the system that's the issue. When the requirement is a straight line OR rotational OR stationary spin lift, the scoring can get muddled. If a straight line where the male is in a spread eagle can get the same points as a rotational lift with multiple positions with the same ice coverage, then we have a problem.

I have no problems if the straight line receives high GOEs but I do take issue if it has the same tech scores as the latter lift.
 
chapis said:
and let´s ignore that Alex is doing a more pronounced curve and use more his edges.
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Huh ? I'm not ignoring it : it's because he can't control his balance with her position that he needs to bend backwards and push on his feet.
And that's why he's slower and why his curve is more stressed. Yes, Gaby's position is easier to handle, but the trajectory and the speed of Guillaume match the music and her arm movement. I'm a judge and I see this smoothness and this easiness, I say +3 or +2. If I think Gaby's position is not difficult enough as a referee I say level 3. (But I'm constricted by the rules, if they did everything by the book, I can't do much).

chapis said:
It seems favoritism, judges liked D/W, so acrobatics lifts were applauded, now that they are gone, acrobatics lifts are bad taste :confused::rolleyes:
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Well I think most of the speedy lift and acrobatics are not fitting to the eyes but if it's well executed I say +3 and wow execution at least 9 in PCS, possibly more depending on the program. On the choreography/interpretation depending on how it fits the music or not I'm not gonna put 10 IF it doesn't. (Not saying I wouldn't put 9.75 of course)
The trend of speed and difficult is not as well seen, it changes, it evolves. That wouldn't mean people would not be as well marked, if it was executed with D/W precision. Right now people prefer an other approach I guess, they're fed up with acrobatics lift. That will change when they get tired of the smoothness.
 
GreenGan said:
I'm a viewer too and what I like in Ice Dance is the consistency, the cohesiveness of a program and the lift who are appropriate to the music. Athletism for athletism is not easy on the eyes at all. And exciting moment are not necessarily athletics one. The first lift of Build a Home for example is exciting/big Wow factor to me.


PC could do the first one too, you know. But the jarring difference between both lifts definitely is the coverage and the speed. She has a more difficult position to maintain, yes. I wish PC could change that lift though, it's my major problem with their FD.
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That first lift of to Build a Home is probably my favourite one of all their lifts they've done so far. It's even better in a slow motion.

I noticed many skaters like/tend to do the first lift mentioned. Ugh, I wish they didn't. I really hate that lift. Difficult or not, I don't see anything beautiful in that. Also, in most cases, it doesn't even suit the music. But that's my 'suffering' to bear while watching. :lol:
 
forthewin said:
Plz enlighten us what exactly the lifts in MS tell for the music in the choreography. Because I don't see any relations at all.
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It goes well along with the choreo and the music, I think that was what it meant. It's following the mouvement, and what Marie-France likes to do is having a link between everything, so that the elements melt into the programms, instead of having a clear preparation for a lift. If done very correctly, you can almost see a lift out of nowhere and that could be a wow factor.
 
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Isabelle.G said:
That first lift of to Build a Home is probably my favourite one of all their lifts they've done so far. It's even better in a slow motion.

I noticed many skaters like/tend to do the first lift mentioned. Ugh, I wish they didn't. I really hate that lift. Difficult or not, I don't see anything beautiful in that. Also, in most cases, it doesn't even suit the music. But that's my 'suffering' to bear while watching. :lol:
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Also, for me, the stationary lift in MS during the musical transition into the faster piece has this same wow factor. I got little goosebumps. Very effective.
 
starrynight said:
Overall, I'd say the regression in dance lifts (and the lack of incentive in the marks to push the level of difficulty) is a bit of a buzz kill for the ~sport~. The current theme of 'you don't need to do any more to get high marks so why bother' feels like a cheat sheet has been found. (But at the very least some coaches have put a lot of effort into figuring out the absolute bare minimum required - obviously clever, but probably not particularly inspirational).
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My thoughts exactly. Keep in mind that ice dance is not seen as a legitimate sport by many. Of late, the winter Olympics have had difficulty attracting host bids and there is talk of streamlining the winter games to make them more attractive to potential host cities. Ice dance is always near the top of the list whenever there is discussion of which sports should be cut. Anyone who wants ice dance to remain an Olympic sport should think seriously about the repercussions of lessening the athletic appeal of the discipline.



starrynight said:
But no doubt the fashion will change soon enough. No doubt something else new and shiny will become sought after in ice dance in the next quad.
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That may depend on whether or not Papadakis/Cizeron win the OGM. The last quad was dominated by Voir and Marlie and we had back to back Oly champions from North America. My gut feeling is there were were some in influential positions in the ISU who desperately wanted to see the OGM in ice dance return to Europe. P/C aren't the only team to benefit from the dumbing down of the technical demands in dance, but arguably they did benefit the most.

If TPTB get the European OGM they want, perhaps they will acknowledge that the pendulum has swung too far in one direction and there could be a return to rewarding athleticism. If a North American team should grab the gold, who knows?
 
vireo said:
If TPTB get the European OGM they want, perhaps they will acknowledge that the pendulum has swung too far in one direction and there could be a return to rewarding athleticism. If a North American team should grab the gold, who knows?
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This sentence highlights the futility of V/M vs. P/C fan war. And also the legitimate discussion of IJS COP. Ugh.
 
kittysk8ts said:
This sentence highlights the futility of V/M vs. P/C fan war.
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YES ! Thank you.

@vireo I don't understand how you can think that : in order for Ice Dance to keep its credibility, you have to show how much you push into the ice, how much you are trying, and how much muscles you have when you lift your partner ? Because what's rewarded is the opposite : you have to almost show nothing when you're skating and yet you have to have the lifts, the deep edges... and the amount of athleticism you need for that is INSANE.
 
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Ice dance would be on the list for those people no matter what and they would also include figure skating as a whole. Regular people don’t really see much of a difference in the lifts that P/C are doing compared to what V/M and D/W are/were doing. They would just scoff at everything about this “gay” sport.

Anyway if we want to look at how athletic or unathletic ice dance looks then no matter how athletic the lifts look, the dances themselves seem like less work then when ice dance wasn’t just about itemized elements but pure dance and intricacy throughout the whole thing and guess what, people scoffed at the sport anyway. They scoff at singles and pairs too despite the jumps (maybe less so pairs because throws are amazing to look at for non-fans) because of the choreography, artistry, costumes, attention to dance, and perceived biased, political judging.

From my anecdotal experience, people who watched ice dance with an open mind appreciate the twizzles, all kinds of lifts that wowed the audience (and they weren’t all the kind with a half a dozen positions while rotating six times around), and the ones with the best reaction were the ones where you could appreciate the quality of movement, musicality, and even edge work. Excellent unison and timing between partners was actually noted without my prompting which they found to be pretty incredible.
 
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vireo said:
My thoughts exactly. Keep in mind that ice dance is not seen as a legitimate sport by many. Of late, the winter Olympics have had difficulty attracting host bids and there is talk of streamlining the winter games to make them more attractive to potential host cities. Ice dance is always near the top of the list whenever there is discussion of which sports should be cut. Anyone who wants ice dance to remain an Olympic sport should think seriously about the repercussions of lessening the athletic appeal of the discipline.
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I'm trying to imagine what regular sports fans would think of all this. Take for example someone who last saw this at the 2014 Olympics: https://youtu.be/lrFwokp3z48?t=1m12s (the first lift from Scheherazade).

When they wonder where all the lifts have gone, try explaining to them that everyone decided that athleticism was too obvious and unstylish for ice dance and that simpler smooth lifts were more aesthetically pleasing but still scored higher marks than ever before. Then say the dancers have found a way to interpret the rule book to get higher marks for less difficulty. Then try to explain that no doubt the fashion will change soon and the athleticism will be back. See how long it is before that person is grinning at you and making jokes about judging scandals and adding ballroom dance to the summer olympics.

I don't think the discipline is doing itself any favours. For example, the twizzles have become a big deal to ice dance fans because it's an element people can clearly see and judge - I'd say that lifts fit into the same category.
 
All lifts are athletic. As for regular sports fans, without actually asking a random pool of people we don’t know. It’s just people’s imagination running rampant and fantasizing that they’ll agree with you and maybe support your efforts in undermining the efforts of P/C. In the fantasy sports fans minds I bet they wouldn’t be impressed with the displayed athleticism of D/W and V/M either. I bet most people simply don’t fully appreciate just how difficulty and physically demanding skating in general is.
 
Did anyone else note that SB/S's PCS was only about 3.4 points less than S/B's in the FD at Finlandia? That's closing the gap from last season.

As a complete short dance/free dance set, I'm enjoying Laurence and Nikolai's programs the most this season so far. They're very rewatchable, which is not the case for a lot of teams this season.
 
chapis said:
I doubt if other couples made such basic lifts, they would be receiving high marks. I do not understand why this lift https://youtu.be/vXH9NUYeLKA?t=70 deserves 5.82, while this one deserves 6.2 https://youtu.be/GNgbCDR2FM0?t=55
Click to expand...
Read the Handbook for judges? I do it every season.

http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...ndbook-for-referees-and-judges-2017-18-1/file

As for P&B's curve lift, I don't find it fitting the music or rhythm at all, which definitely warrants a -1 GoE deduction. It's just a lift for the sake of doing a lift. Because of this, the max it deserves is +2 IMO.

As for P&C's curve lift, not only does it fit the normal +3 GoE criteria, but also warrants +3 in GoE adjustments. The max is already +3, so I don't see why it wouldn't get the max GoE.
 
thvudragon said:
Read the Handbook for judges? I do it every season.

http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pa...ndbook-for-referees-and-judges-2017-18-1/file

As for P&B's curve lift, I don't find it fitting the music or rhythm at all, which definitely warrants a -1 GoE deduction. It's just a lift for the sake of doing a lift. Because of this, the max it deserves is +2 IMO.

As for P&C's curve lift, not only does it fit the normal +3 GoE criteria, but also warrants +3 in GoE adjustments. The max is already +3, so I don't see why it wouldn't get the max GoE.
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Looking at this, I actually understand way more the GOEs, it's pretty clear. P/C's lift definitely justifies the +3 GOE. Actually, when Guillaume fell, it was -2 for the Dist across the board which is exactly what's written in the book (clean Step sequence but 1 partner falls = minus 2).
Nothing about te levels though ? :confused: Is it on another handbook ?

EDIT : In fact, no wonder Montreal teams are getting high scores... their coaches really took advantage of the IJS.
 
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