U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[VGThuy]

Great interview, @clairecloutier ! Glad to hear their thoughts about their lack of selections post Nationals. To me, it was a real snub on the part of the USFS...whether or not anyone thinks it was justified. I wish I was more optimistic about Mervin's chances of getting citizenship by the 2022 Olympics, but who knows what magic can happen.

 

[flyingsit]

I have to say, I found Marissa a bit hypocritical complaining that US pairs focus on "big tricks" at the expense of other skills when she and Simon seemed to spend their entire last two seasons training a throw 3axel and 4sal which never materialized in competition.

 

[clairecloutier]

^^ Perhaps she knows whereof she speaks? From personal experience.

We don't know everything about the directions/incentives/suggestions the athletes are given.

 

[centerpt1]

USFS's grand plan and unprecedented snub resulted in only one US Pair team slot for the Olympics. I hope Marissa and Marvin are able to grow and shine ...... and are treated fairly in post season assignments.

 

[wickedwitch]

USFS's grand plan and unprecedented snub resulted in only one US Pair team slot for the Olympics. I hope Marissa and Marvin are able to grow and shine ...... and are treated fairly in post season assignments.

The snub had nothing to do with the number of spots unless you believe they would have placed higher than S\K at worlds.

 

[olympic]

And that would not have happened

 

[Spiralgraph]

Exactly. Sad to say but C/L are not yet reliable as a pair team. )But then neither are other US teams) Unprecedented snub? hmmm I'm not sure but I think there might be a few other instances where a skater/s was left of the world team for reasons TPTB deem legitimate.

 

[mgobluegirl]

The snub had nothing to do with the number of spots unless you believe they would have placed higher than S\K at worlds.

No, but they should have gotten to skate at at least one of 4CC or WTT.

 

[Firedancer]

Great interview @clairecloutier! It was interesting to read Marissa & Mervin's perspective on their lack of post nationals assignments. After winning a silver medal, I do feel like they should have gotten something. Hopefully, they are able to have more consistency next season.

 

[VGThuy]

Does anyone else think Mervin is really handsome?

 

[wickedwitch]

No, but they should have gotten to skate at at least one of 4CC or WTT.

I completely agree and think it was illogical they got nothing, so there's no reason to resort to ridiculous arguments such as "this is the reason the US has only one spot at the Olys."

 

[Sylvia]

I've started to compile a preliminary, very partial list for 2017 Skate Detroit, July 18-22 (entry deadline has just closed but the schedule/groups won't be published online for a while yet). Here's what I have for U.S. Sr./Jr. pairs:

Senior:
Chelsea Liu & Brian Johnson S6 (Todd Sand)
Jessica Calalang & Zack Sidhu (TS)
Nica Digerness & Danny Neudecker J1 (Dalilah Sappenfield)
Winter Deardorff (not yet listed) & Max Settlage (DS) NEW
Alexandria Yao-J3 & Jacob Simon-J4 (DS) NEW; ISU Jr. age-eligible this season only

Junior:
Kate Finster-J10 & Derrick Griffin-N1 (Zimmerman/Fontana) NEW; ISU Jr. age-eligible this season only
Emma Coppess-J8 & Anthony Boucher (Peter Oppegard) NEW; ISU Jr. age-eligible this season only
Evelyn Grace Hanns & Kristofer Ogren-N2 (DS) NEW
Ainsley Peterson-N2 & Griffin Schwab-J9 (TS) NEW
Meiryla Findley-J3 in 2016 & Matthew Rounis-J11 (DS) NEW
Eliana Secunda & Blake Eisenach N4 (Cindy Sullivan) - ISU Jr. age-eligible
Katherina & Nicolas Frantz N5 (Alena Lunin) - ISU Jr. age-eligible
Cora DeWyre & Jacob Nussle N8 (Michelle Hunt)

Anthony Boucher, 20, is new to pairs. He competed in one JGP 2 years ago and this was his 3rd place SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ypQgVPZJ7c

I also expect to see the Ellenton, Florida group, coached by Jim Peterson/Amanda Evora/Lyndon Johnston, at Skate Detroit.

 

[LilJen]

Does anyone else think Mervin is really handsome?

I think he's DARLING more than handsome. Excellent sense of humor as well.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Indeed, Mervin is adorable, funny, cool, and an excellent pairs partner. Together Merv & Marissa are the 'bee's knees,' and I wish them luck. I urge them to make their own luck! Thanks for the interview update @clairecloutier.

USFS's grand plan and unprecedented snub resulted in only one US Pair team slot for the Olympics. I hope Marissa and Marvin are able to grow and shine ...... and are treated fairly in post season assignments.

Eh, it don't seem to me like USFS has ever had any 'grand plan,' and particularly not when it comes to their pairs division!

I would characterize what happened to C/T as unfair, but I certainly would not call it an 'unprecedented' snub. We could fill an entire book with all of the 'unfair' situations that have happened in this sport, particularly in the U.S., but also in the sport as a whole. By now, isn't it obvious that the competition structure is antiquated and woefully limiting, and that the entire sport is behind-the-times, with the U.S. particularly in the doldrums???! If USFS and their athletes continue doing the same thing and hoping for miracles, absolutely nothing is going to change. I don't think USFS has much of a clue about a lot of things. It is made up of many different people with varying ideas and stuck-in-the-mud thought processes. I agree with at least one of Dave Lease's utterances that there needs to be a complete USFS house cleaning. They need to bring in visionaries with new ideas and leadership skills who have an aptitude for marketing & promotion, as well as knowledge & expertise in how to develop winning strategies for athletes!

As someone who has been a fan of Marissa/Mervin from the very beginning, I am rather surprised to see a lot of people feeling sorry for them because they did not receive any competitive assignments after winning silver at 2017 U.S. Nationals. Where were all of you the past 3 seasons? Enjoying M&M quietly from afar, but not openly expressing your fandom? There have been lots of whining from posters who have not liked some of C/T's programs and music selections. And of course, the usual dumping on them for their inconsistent technical results in competitions. Rarely has there been a significant number of fans rallying around to discuss what the problems and solutions might be for C/T to repair their tech inconsistencies, which has been the major weakness holding them back.

What happened was unfair, but not 'unprecedented.' Why not face up to the reality that USFS was challenged with some problematic decisionmaking and difficult choices? I can understand being upset for Marissa & Mervin if you are a fan of their skating. But continuing to be upset months later is unproductive and unrealistic, in addition to being beside-the-point. No matter what choice was made, bottom line: U.S. pairs were going to face huge obstacles at 2017 Worlds due to a lack of sufficient spots available to move on to the fp, combined with increased international pairs depth, talented new teams having moved up from juniors, and most of all - the U.S. pairs divison being riddled with injuries and lack of consistent competitive progress.

For me the point in all of this is whether or not USFS has learned anything? And have the skaters learned anything? I think USFS should have at the very least learned to stop disrespecting skaters by not informing them first of the selection decisions and explaining to them why certain decisions were made, particularly for skaters like Marissa & Mervin who were left hung out to dry. To me that's the part that's most unacceptable and unfair. I believe C/T should have at least been given first alternate to Worlds and an opportunity to compete at 4CCs, or at least any available post-Nationals senior B competitive assignment. OTOH, I do not feel the selection decisions were an intentional lack of support for C/T as much as a desire to provide Cain/LeDuc with additional chances to continue improving and gaining competitive experience after their steady progress and success as a new team in their first season together.

The other complication was two veteran teams coming back from injury and illness respectively, with neither being at full strength. I think it might have been better to have given Marissa/Mervin 4CCs over Haven/Brandon in order to rest Haven's knee (she was increasingly having trouble landing her jumps as the season progressed). But it seems that USFS was trying to help Haven/Brandon with points after they had missed an entire season. Initially, I had expected Alexa/Chris to still be working on preparing for Worlds in February, but it's clear they needed a competitive opportunity prior to Worlds, and since they are seen as frontrunning U.S. pairs team, they were given 4CCs. The fact that the 4CCs venue is the site for the upcoming 2018 Olympics also made 4CCs a plum assignment this year.

It's reasonable for Marissa & Mervin to express their disappointment. But they should not get too caught up in dwelling on the unfairness of it all and feeling sorry for themselves. I appreciate the way Mervin flipped the complaining to a more positive upbeat take, while still noting their disappointment. Marissa should realize by now that nothing in figure skating has anything to do with fairness. I'm thrilled they are staying together, and I think they are on the right track working with a jump coach and channeling their disappointment in a positive direction. It's a good approach to stay hungry and motivated, and also to communicate their goals clearly. Keep the fighting attitude in working to make USFS 'want to send them' to the Olympics next year! C/T need to own and believe in the fact that they are one of the best stylistic pairs teams in the world. And they need to employ strategic-thinking in order to improve their areas of weakness and to make significant progress in a sport that is only becoming more competitive and more unfair. They are a great match, and I feel they have the potential to go far with the right guidance, training and strategic planning. They also have to capitalize on the opportunities that are presented to them.

ITA with your comments @Spiralgraph, but I believe you meant to cite C/T in your previous post, not C/L (although at this point, the sentiment you expressed could apply to a number of U.S. pairs teams).

 

[AKA]

We also have the Craaford siblings-junior? Sarah and Ian plus Erin Coleman and ? What about Sarah Feng and TJ?

I've started to compile a preliminary, very partial list for 2017 Skate Detroit, July 18-22 (entry deadline has just closed but the schedule/groups won't be published online for a while yet). Here's what I have for U.S. Sr./Jr. pairs:

Senior:
Chelsea Liu & Brian Johnson S6 (Todd Sand)
Jessica Calalang & Zack Sidhu (TS)
Nica Digerness & Danny Neudecker J1 (Dalilah Sappenfield)
Winter Deardorff (not yet listed) & Max Settlage (DS) NEW
Alexandria Yao-J3 & Jacob Simon-J4 (DS) NEW; ISU Jr. age-eligible this season only

Junior:
Kate Finster-J10 & Derrick Griffin-N1 (Zimmerman/Fontana) NEW; ISU Jr. age-eligible this season only
Emma Coppess-J8 & Anthony Boucher (Peter Oppegard) NEW; ISU Jr. age-eligible this season only
Evelyn Grace Hanns & Kristofer Ogren-N2 (DS) NEW
Ainsley Peterson-N2 & Griffin Schwab-J9 (TS) NEW
Meiryla Findley-J3 in 2016 & Matthew Rounis-J11 (DS) NEW
Eliana Secunda & Blake Eisenach N4 (Cindy Sullivan) - ISU Jr. age-eligible
Katherina & Nicolas Frantz N5 (Alena Lunin) - ISU Jr. age-eligible
Cora DeWyre & Jacob Nussle N8 (Michelle Hunt)

Anthony Boucher, 20, is new to pairs. He competed in one JGP 2 years ago and this was his 3rd place SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ypQgVPZJ7c

I also expect to see the Ellenton, Florida group, coached by Jim Peterson/Amanda Evora/Lyndon Johnston, at Skate Detroit.

 

[Josh78]

Dalilah posted this picture on her Instagram and Facebook accounts today (the writing above the picture is from my re-post of it on my own Facebook account) -- Winter/Max, Alexandria/Jacob, and Nica/Danny all passed their senior pairs test -- Sarah and TJ passed their junior pairs test!

Congratulations to these pairs moving up ! Sarah Feng/TJ Nyman pass their junior pairs test, and Winter Deardorff/Max Settlage, Alexandria Yao/Jacob Simon, and Nica Digerness/Danny Neudecker pass their senior pairs test!



Dalilah Medel Farfan Sappenfield
4 hrs · Instagram

·
Congrats on getting test passed! Junior pair test @tj_nyman and Sarah. Senior pair test @max_settlage @winternoel @jacobsimonsays @allie.wow @nannydeudecker @figuresk8rnica

✔

 

[aftershocks]

Why aren't Mervin & Marissa moving to John Zimmerman's team in Florida instead of Duhamel/ Radford leading the charge?

 

[Jammers]

Why aren't Mervin & Marissa moving to John Zimmerman's team in Florida instead of Duhamel/ Radford leading the charge?

Why are any promising up and coming US Pairs teams not moving to John Z? D/F probably regret leaving him a couple years ago now and it backfired on them.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Well, exactly! I guess M&M, U.S. fed, and other U.S. pairs are as usual slow to react, and just waiting around to allow other teams like freakin' Duhamel/Radford (who I do love and have championed) to take charge and make the move. I mean, why did it take Vanessa James anyway to remind everyone about JohnZ's talent and his connection to the great Moskvina? U.S. don't seem to know how to cultivate and make use of talent in their own backyard.

Nobody really understood what JohnZ was doing when he reached out to Ingo Steuer. Now, doesn't it seem to make sense? John, in his methodical and thoughtful way, was trying to build a successful pairs coaching team! These days, the best coaching seems to be about collaboration. I don't think we need to look any farther than what happened to D/R last season to realize how important it is to develop a good music and choreo selection fit that suits the team's personalities. I can see what D/R were trying for last season choreographically, but it just never worked, no matter their tweaking throughout the season. I'm sure magical choreo combined with exciting, innovative moves is one of the chief reasons for D/R making the switch to JohnZ/JohnK camp in Florida.

I have to say, I found Marissa a bit hypocritical complaining that US pairs focus on "big tricks" at the expense of other skills when she and Simon seemed to spend their entire last two seasons training a throw 3axel and 4sal which never materialized in competition.

Well the other thing about the admiring comments describing Sui/Han as aesthetic marvels, is that Sui/Han were known for nothing more than 'big tricks' themselves for most of their career. What made the difference for Sui/Han over the past two seasons has been Hongbo Zhao and Xue Shen helping them with the finer details of connection and charisma. Along with the Chinese fed paying for top-notch choreography! A team doesn't rise to the top by competitive grit and some mysterious magic alone. It takes time, money, strategizing and superior coaching expertise, as well as full commitment, support and competition opportunities provided by their federation! *And yes, I know that latter necessity is complicated by the antiquated ISU competition structure.

Are you listening U.S. fed? Are you paying attention to what's happening? Or, as usual just waiting around casually crossing your fingers and expecting skaters to shoulder the entire burden of trying to 'make magic' by themselves?

 

[RoseRed]

Why aren't Mervin & Marissa moving to John Zimmerman's team in Florida instead of Duhamel/ Radford leading the charge?

Wasn't part of their citizenship issue that they both live/train in Canada, which they decided to do because Mervin loved his Montreal training team so much? So I doubt they'd move. Though Meagan and Eric are still based in Montreal with Bruno, but are also spending time with John Z, so surely Mervin and Marissa could do that too.

 

[Karpenko]

Great work @clairecloutier I hope it leads to many more for you!

It's easy to say this now... But I got the feeling that D/F weren't as healthy at Worlds as they were earlier in the season. They didn't seem like themselves IMO, but C/L were the alternates. So in that case, maybe better to go with D/F even if they're not at their best (because C/L were so new and untested). Marissa and Mervin had broken 67 in the short at an event last season and could've made the LP cut with a clean short. whoops!

It's easy to say that now though, but even though I'm glad they named Alexa/Chris to the team, I do think C/T should've been the first alternates over C/L. C/L have a great future but they didn't have as good of scoring potential in the SP internationally as C/T this season IMO. The moral of the story is that it's probably better to go with the experienced pairs when there are spots on the line.

 

[aftershocks]

Wasn't part of their citizenship issue that they both live/train in Canada, which they decided to do because Mervin loved his Montreal training team so much? So I doubt they'd move. Though Meagan and Eric are still based in Montreal with Bruno, but are also spending time with John Z, so surely Mervin and Marissa could do that too.

^^ At some point, I would think that Mervin would have to spend more time in the U.S. as part of trying to become a U.S. citizen.

Sure, the deal between Marissa and Mervin was that Merv liked his coaches and wanted to stay with them. M&M's initial arrangement was they would train in Montreal, and commute occasionally to Boston to consult with Marissa's coaches. But that arrangement understandably was too unwieldy and did not work. They stopped commuting to Boston before last season started.

IMO, M&M got off to a slow start when they first hooked up because they had to wait until Mervin could be released before they could compete internationally. Skaters need to compete often in order to develop and to get the kinks worked out. They did not seem to have as bad jumping miscues in the very beginning. But their tech consistency and confidence increasingly worsened. It's either that there have been timing and rhythm issues surrounding their technical elements, or else they each have different jump techniques, so that when they went into sbs jumps they were both nervous about trying to match each other, and that nervousness became increasingly worse. In the recent interview, C/T did discuss timing issues involving the inconsistencies they've sometimes experienced on their 3-twist. Another problem has been the fact that Marissa for some reason did not have a varied throw jump arsenal. They have been attempting to beef up difficulty and variety in their throw jumps, but that's still a work-in-progress.

At Skate America last October, C/T started out great in their sp, managing to complete and stand up on their jumping pass and they had a really great program going, but then at the very end, a fluke miscue on a lift and they lost a lot of points, gaining no credit for the botched lift. Things seemed to unravel for them after that. They looked devastated, and were apparently unable to regroup for the duration of the GP season.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RnnlfyD3-s Look how strong their start; this is a really wonderfully talented team and they need to get it going with some momentum and some success, especially after 3 seasons together. It seems to me that they could be a good fit with JohnZ, especially if BMarcotte and JMarcotte are going to Florida with D/R to collaborate. Why isn't someone thinking in those terms for C/T? Or why aren't they thinking in those terms when they haven't seemed to be getting everything they need in the crowded camp of Gauthier/Marcotte?

And what's happening now in Montreal? Are Gauthier/Marcotte simply going to continue working together for the rest of their teams, aside from D/R? I would imagine that would be the case, but it certainly should be spelled out, after the news of D/R's split with Gauthier.

Here is C/T's fp at U.S. Nats in January: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezNblD5n2Zc
Again, strong, sharp, elegant, stylish, wonderful speed, great skating skills -- but those silly nervous jumping mistakes, from Mervin on this occasion. C/T were strong enough to win U.S. Nationals, but they didn't. That's the bugaboo. Look at yourself, not outside yourself to find the answers.

 

[Karpenko]

Last years US Nationals really were a lose-lose situation all around for just about everyone, it left more questions than answers. Some nice performances in the SP though, but the LP was hard to watch.

We do have a solid group of talent coming up, I think things will pick up and last years Nats will soon be long in the past. Alexa and Chris will be back, Tarah and Danny will be healthy, C/T and D/F will be motivated, and all of the other pairs will have more experience.. Next quad will hopefully be much different, we're a better pairs program than the 1 Olympic entry suggests IMO.

 

[aftershocks]

Marissa and Mervin had broken 67 in the short at an event last season and could've made the LP cut with a clean short. whoops!

As you say, easy to say that now. Your above scenario would have been iffy as well. Why? M&M have not shown any technical consistency! Plus, only Cain/LeDuc and Stellato-Dudek/ Bartholomay had clean, crowd-pleasing sps at 2017 U.S. Nationals. And that's two new teams who had been together for less than a year, and yet were both taking the gutsy move to go for the risky 3-twist as new partners! (Remember too that Cain/LeDuc beat both Kayne/O'Shea and Haven/Brandon at senior Bs by a slight margin last fall). Meanwhile, Marissa & Mervin were very hesitant and nervous in the sp at Nationals, which landed them in 4th place. And some people are blaming USFS for the tough decision they had to make?!

Haven looked increasingly worse understandably as the season continued. Why wasn't anyone taking a close look at that? She'd been off for a year rehabilitating (relearning how to walk and how to jump). And when Haven came back with Brandon, despite having a decent start to the season, she was not at full strength with her knee. D/F did not have a great Nationals, despite being gifted with a win I'm sure it was felt they deserved due to their past promising status, their obvious skills, good programs, and Brandon's aesthetic improvements. But by the time Nationals rolled around, they were not at their best because of Haven's knee issues increasingly hampering their confidence, and also perhaps some conditioning issues at the tail end of their comeback season. Nobody obviously paid any attention to that. Maybe they should have rested Haven/Brandon and sent Marissa/Merv to 4CCs, or else bitten the bullet and sent Haven/Brandon; Alexa/Chris; and Marissa/Merv to 4CCs to see how each team would fare, and then given Cain/LeDuc Bavarian Open, first alternate for Worlds, and WTT. Hindsight is easy, but in this case, it's still complicated!

Look at it this way: Yes it was unfair for C/T to get nothing after Nationals, and the decision should have been revealed and explained to them first. But OTOH, US fed did make the announcement before Nationals that team selections would be based on a variety of factors, not necessarily having to do with Nationals results, but everything to do with a focus on 2018 Olympics.

 

[Karpenko]

It was impossible to make a decision. I'm not trying to dog any of the pairs, USFSA (maybe a tiny bit, but who cares I'm just a fan) etc, and I pointed out that it's easy to say that now.

But the sad reality we're left with is one Olympic spot, and I think that if there's any lesson that could be learned for future tough situations like this, it's that (regardless if they have citizenship for the Olys or not, if they can go to worlds they can still help secure the necessary spot) it's probably a safer bet to go with experience over a new team. Even though Marissa and Mervin were inconsistent - everybody else was injured, new/untested internationally, or also inconsistent. They still finished 2nd ahead of the eventual first alternates.

But it doesn't matter anymore and the program is going to move forward.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yep, it's water under the bridge @Karpenko, but it obviously is still being treated like a Bridge Over Troubled Water, as evidenced by some of the earlier comments generated by C/T's reflections. The questions needed to be asked, but I think C/T should have not dwelled overmuch on being 'disappointed with their federation.' I'm sure they have supporters in their federation who voted for them. Perhaps it might have been better to say, "We are disappointed with the decision, and feel we deserved another opportunity to compete after Nationals. But we have put it all into perspective and have used this time in a positive way to..." etc., and they ultimately did go on to articulate the latter sentiment in an upbeat fashion. As I mentioned earlier, it was Mervin who first flipped the response into a more positive direction, and that was the best approach.

I say take the example of Davis/White and the ShibSibs: Suck it up, don't complain & don't make too many excuses either. Put your head down, your nose to the grindstone and keep asking yourself how you can improve. Understand how unfair and political the system is; have some responses prepared for the questions you know that are going to come from fans; stay positive and disciplined; know what your goals are; don't look outside yourself for the answers to your own dilemmas. Like Cain/LeDuc have shown: Be grateful for everything, don't expect anything and keep working hard to be prepared to put up or shut up, lay it down on a dime or make the necessary adjustments to shine, shine, shine when it counts. Cuz it's way too crowded competitively and figure skating has never been easy.

Mervin is so smooth, and he knows how to leaven things with humor. Marissa's one of the best and toughest pairs ladies around and a very sweet person. I wish them well. I love all the U.S. pairs. C/T and C/L are my faves, but I enjoy them all. This has been a very tough season with a lot of highs and lows.

I agree that there is a lot to look forward to, and the only reason to look back is to learn something and apply it effectively.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I do think C/T should've been the first alternates over C/L.

Hi Karpenko!!!

Even tho C&T haven't shown much consistency where C&L were for the most part staying vertical.

Apples and oranges, for sure.

But sometimes I think well they had 3 years to show something (especially from where they were both coming from) maybe lets throw a bone to the newbies who've produced some fire, spark and innovation in a very very short time....

 

[aftershocks]

It was an impossible decision ... But the sad reality we're left with is one Olympic spot, ...

Hi @Karpenko, I agree with you quite often, so please don't take my thoughts personally. The problem with what you are saying above IMO, is that you really can't tie the decision not to give C/T an assignment to the tough loss of an Olympic spot. Isn't it obvious that no matter what assignment decision was made, US pairs were gonna face a hell of a battle at Worlds. Especially with their top pair coming back from illness/surgery and thus not at full strength, and certainly not at full competitive strength. Kudos to Alexa & Chris for toughing it out and doing as well as they did. I know I was crossing my fingers and hoping, but that's not a great way for U.S. pairs to head into tough battles.

I do not cast any blame on Haven/Brandon either. They were also in a tough situation, wanting so much to do well and having worked so hard, but knowing deep down they were not at full strength and thus I'm sure they lacked the confidence they would have normally had going into what was almost an impossible situation. And that's largely due to the ISU's bonehead decision not to expand the number of positions eligible to move on to the fp at Worlds.

The other bad luck situation was that the defending U.S. champions, Kayne/O'Shea were battling Tarah's overuse injury all season long which culminated in that scary fall at Nationals in the sp where Tarah suffered a concussion. K/O are one of the grittiest and most consistent teams when they are healthy, despite having weaknesses they need to improve upon as a team in order to reach a top level of competitiveness. But surely, a healthy K/O could have backed up Alexa/Chris at Worlds and together they could have come away with the valuable two Olympic spots. It was just not to be. Going forward, U.S. pairs will need to battle back for at least maintaining two spots for Worlds and Olympics, and work on improving to the point where they can challenge for 3 spots. But it seems like a losing battle with a federation and an ISU that have no vision and no leadership.

... and I think that if there's any lesson that could be learned for future tough situations like this, it's that (regardless if they have citizenship for the Olys or not, if they can go to worlds they can still help secure the necessary spot) it's probably a safer bet to go with experience over a new team.

Sounds fairly reasonable on the surface, but not under the complicated circumstances the U.S. fed was dealt with this year @Karpenko. The only way what you said makes sense is if Marissa/Mervin had been able to actually deliver more consistent and steady performances technically throughout the season. Face the truth please that had Marissa/Mervin been able to make adjustments and shown some technical consistency, and at the least skated their fp cleanly at U.S. Nationals, they would have made a better case for themselves. Then, U.S. fed would have been presented with an even harder choice that really would have looked bad on them if they didn't give C/T an opportunity at least at 4CCs, and even possibly over the injury-compromised Haven/Brandon at Worlds. In fact, Marissa/Mervin were probably the healthiest of the more experienced U.S. pairs teams (despite Mervin being hampered by a concussion last summer). IMHO, why didn't Marissa/Mervin win an injury-prone, newbie partner strewn U.S. National championships?

Under the circumstances that existed, why would you expect C/T to have inspired confidence among U.S. fed that they could get the job done at Worlds, when they didn't get it done with any complete confidence at 2017 U.S. Nationals? C/T skated more strongly in the fp and came in second by a few points ahead of newbie pairs team C/L, yes, but C/T were 4th in the sp, and they did not skate either program cleanly. C/T possess loads of style, speed, crispness, coolness and chemistry, but they have got to put it together technically on a consistent basis!

The last part of what you said also does not make sense in context, since Haven/Brandon have more experience as partners, and more Worlds experience than Marissa/Mervin. If you are speaking indirectly of Cain/LeDuc not having enough experience, please recognize that they were given first alternate at Worlds (which I agree should have gone to C/T), but C/L did not compete at Worlds. The decision to give C/L first alternate at 2017 Worlds has no bearing on the U.S. losing a second spot in pairs for the 2018 Olympics. And it's not unreasonable for U.S. fed to want to give C/L as much exposure and experience as possible due to their promising strengths as a team and the steady progress they showed in only 7 months together. The more assignments C/L were given, the more they improved over the course of the season. Overall, I think that's an important take-away. Skaters have got to have opportunities to compete if they are going to have any chance of improving. Of course, it's not always the case that a pairs team will make the kind of progress that C/L showed in their first season. And please keep in mind that C/L have to continue showing progress and good results in order to continue being held in high regard.

IMO, C/T have been hampered by being forced into a slow start internationally during their first season; experiencing technical timing miscues that were never adequately addressed; training decisions that did not work out well; stuck behind a lot of Canadian teams in the pecking order albeit with good coaches, but they need more attention and priority; Marissa having to beef up her throw jump arsenal; their technical difficulties leading to a lack of confidence that neither have been used to experiencing, which adds more complications for fairly new partners trying to come together fluidly. Now they need to get over the hump of all these difficulties and fulfill their promise. I believe they can do it!

And let's not forget that Stellato-Dudek/Bartholomay are feisty and working hard too to improve and be a part of the mix among top U.S. pairs teams.

 

[Karpenko]

Hi Karpenko!!!

Even tho C&T haven't shown much consistency where C&L were for the most part staying vertical.

Apples and oranges, for sure.

But sometimes I think well they had 3 years to show something (especially from where they were both coming from) maybe lets throw a bone to the newbies who've produced some fire, spark and innovation in a very very short time....

Yeah but they're still newbies, the potential to completely unravel is there. The elements aren't auto-pilot and C/L generated an extreme amount of hype this season. Deservedly, but they were still 3rd at US Nationals, and would've been skating together for less than a year at Worlds. Worlds is totally different and there's extreme pressure, all of the hype surrounding them wouldn't have been there in Helsinki. Their elements and consistency can only be so strong after 8 months IMO, next year would be different because they'll have had much more time together. The US wasn't in a position with our depth to take that chance IMO, and now just one spot. Marissa and Mervin have both competed at worlds before, they at least know what it's like and what it takes to compete (even if they made mistakes there, just like D/F).

I just think they made the wrong decision by snubbing C/T, and I don't think there's anything wrong with Marissa and Mervin voicing their negative emotions from it. It's not going to harm anybody but Marissa and Mervin, and they're respecting their fellow competitors. I'll be shocked if we only get one spot at any point next quad though.

@aftershocks you can disagree with me and I'll still like you I just don't agree and think C/L (who have beautiful potential for the future) were a bit overhyped and inconsistent themselves (just this past season though, next season they could make much more progress), and hope you also don't take it personally.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ I agree that C/T should have been given the first Worlds alternate spot (which I've said enuf times already). And perhaps C/T should even have been considered to replace Haven/Brandon at 4CCs. But your logic is nonexistent @Karpenko since Cain/LeDuc, despite being first alternates for Worlds, did not compete at Worlds. OTOH, while C/T have some Worlds experience with former partners (and Mervin is a former bronze medalist at Worlds), C/T have not yet skated together at Worlds, which is too bad. I wish C/T had been able to get more opportunities and more guided attention from their coaches in order to improve faster.

Unfortunately, C/T simply have been too inconsistent on their technical elements to expect that they would suddenly have performed great at 2017 Worlds under pressure cooker conditions. It was dicey enough as is with Haven not at full strength and also Haven/Brandon working with new coaches and having to extend themselves in their comeback season after a year not competing. Added to that, we had top U.S. pair Alexa/Chris coming back from her illness and surgery, and thus it was difficult for them due to decreased training time. But the Knierims did a good job under the circumstances.

Perhaps with C/T having more faith placed in them and better support, maybe that would have helped C/T at some point earlier in their partnership. The fact remains that they were forced to get off to a slow competitive start in their first season together, and it doesn't appear to have been the best decision for C/T to have tried to commute back-and-forth from Montreal to Boston for coaching assistance their first couple of seasons.

It's not quite clear why you are continuing to try and connect Cain/LeDuc being given the first alternate spot at Worlds with the U.S. losing a second Olympics spot in pairs. There is no correlation. And Cain/LeDuc, while they are new partners, they are not new to pairs. They have junior and senior international pairs experience with former partners. C/L don't have the senior Worlds experience with former partners that Marissa/Mervin have, but C/L have certainly gotten off to a relatively better start in their first season together than M&M did in their first, second and third seasons. That's factual and not hype.

As far as strengths, weaknesses, skating skills, etc., quite clearly Marissa/Mervin have better skating skills and more speed. I would say the two teams are nearly equal in terms of stylistic and aesthetic qualities, with C/L still in the more budding stages of building their unique style. C/L already have gorgeous lines and an engaging performance ability, which not many pairs have, no matter how long they've been together. Again, that's not hype. But you can perceive the enthusiasm that many fans have expressed for C/L's strengths as hype if you wish.

There's no telling what's going to happen going forward. All is in flux, and we shall see. I'm pulling for U.S. pairs in general to steadily improve. And I'm pulling for my fave teams C/T and C/L. But Alexa/Chris will still be considered the top team. It will be interesting to see how Haven/Brandon rebound. And Kayne/O'Shea can never be counted out. I'm sure Deanna/Nate will be doing their best to improve and to challenge the top teams. You must realize that a lot depends on the number of spots the ISU will make available for pairs at Worlds going forward. The antiquated competition structure is always a factor. And who knows whether U.S. fed is ever going to pay more attention to building a stronger pairs program.

My previously expressed thoughts regarding Marissa/Mervin responding to U.S. fed's assignment decision are quite clear, sincere, thorough and to the point. There's no reason for any of us to reiterate further. I wouldn't be as passionate and engaged about offering my viewpoints and advice if I wasn't a fan of C/T's skating. Frankly, I am disappointed in not seeing C/T have better results when they are so talented. It was really a downer what happened to C/T at Skate America. They have thus far failed to put it all together, but there's always hope.

Ah, maybe one day we might meet face to face @Karpenko, and figure out what you mean by taking things personally. It's you who seem kinda hung up on that. We actually aren't disagreeing about much generally. Some of your stances just seem a bit muddled. But whatever. I wish I could find some fans willing to discuss the pros and cons of U.S. pairs and have fun exchanging ideas, likes and dislikes about their favorite pairs teams without all the unnecessary sturm und drang, misinterpretations, and taking offense over minute points of disagreement.

@skate_moivo and Marissa are too busy training hard and having fun this off-season to worry about the back-and-forth going on in this thread, none of which is going to impact their skating career. And Cain/LeDuc appear to enjoy working hard too, while also being chill, positive and upbeat. And that's no hype.