The Dance Hall, Part 4: To Helsinki & Back -- Seeking Rhumba Magic ...

cocotaffy said:
On another note, anyone else surprised that the newlyweds LeGac/Lauriault didn't make the cut ? They couldn't get their levels compared to Euros. It's a pity, they're a lovely team with nice qualities.
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Lauriault & Le Gac did get crushed on the levels. Interesting. The pattern for them most of this season has been getting good levels relative to their close competition with lower PCS. They could have gotten the job done here, but they need a real program, I think. It's to be expected that they have been scoring lower on PCS as a young team, but I also can't blame the judges because L&LG's programs this season feel to me very just element to element, with a fab trademark D&L lift at the end. Anyway, they were the only team from 15th-24th who wasn't fighting for an Olympic spot here. I'm sure France was a bit busy pushing #1 to worry much about these two. They come out of this season with the second highest SB score of all the dance teams transitioning up from juniors and as one of only two transitioning teams with the opportunity to compete here. It was good experience for them. Overall, I'd say they had quite a successful debut season and look to be in good shape to go up against Abachkina & Thauron next year.
 
First I want to compliment Tanith and Ben on their commentary. I actually do think it would be interesting to watch with the sound off to see if the message comes through visually. With that I would say that G/P are wonderful to watch for their expression alone. I do hope they continue to work on their technical skills and move up. They are unique.

I have made no secret that I think P/C are bringing something new to the ice and I love what they do. What I find thrilling is that V/M are at the top of their game. So you have the absolute cream rising to the top with varied elements and style and it is such a treat for figure skating fans. I mentioned that I loved the expression of G/P. I love the technical expertise of the Shibs. Many talk about the problems posed by a sibling team.
But I think about their precision and speed and how well they seem to mirror each other and wonder if this is because they are siblings.

And I have hope for H/D....they are so close to breaking through....that program was beautiful even with the fall. Keep going..

About S/B: What am I missing? What should I look for with them? I find I want to watch P/C, Team USA, Team Canada and Team Italy and then S/B. And they are not a tenth place team.
 
What I love about V/M and P/C are their different approaches to ice dance. V/M take on the challenge of adapting floor dance to the ice, and do it fabulously well. P/C take advantage of the ice for their dances, and therefore do dances that can only be done on the ice, never on the floor. As a lover of dance, I find the contrasts of these two approaches/perspectives thrilling, and can't wait to see what each team does next. It's great for the sport overall, and I'm lucky to witness it.
 
Cachoo said:
About S/B: What am I missing? What should I look for with them? I find I want to watch P/C, Team USA, Team Canada and Team Italy and then S/B. And they are not a tenth place team.
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Do you mean B/S--Bobrova & Soloviev--or S/B--Stepanova & Bukin? Because S/B are the tenth place team.
 
Cachoo said:
First I want to compliment Tanith and Ben on their commentary. I actually do think it would be interesting to watch with the sound off to see if the message comes through visually. With that I would say that G/P are wonderful to watch for their expression alone. I do hope they continue to work on their technical skills and move up. They are unique.

I have made no secret that I think P/C are bringing something new to the ice and I love what they do. What I find thrilling is that V/M are at the top of their game. So you have the absolute cream rising to the top with varied elements and style and it is such a treat for figure skating fans. I mentioned that I loved the expression of G/P. I love the technical expertise of the Shibs. Many talk about the problems posed by a sibling team.
But I think about their precision and speed and how well they seem to mirror each other and wonder if this is because they are siblings.

And I have hope for H/D....they are so close to breaking through....that program was beautiful even with the fall. Keep going..

About S/B: What am I missing? What should I look for with them? I find I want to watch P/C, Team USA, Team Canada and Team Italy and then S/B. And they are not a tenth place team.
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I remember one of the commentators in Poland noticing on TV during their Free Skate how Alex seemingly subconsciously reacted to Maia accelerating on one of her twizzles doing exactly the same as hers and matching her again in decimal part of second.

On S/B I guess you mean Stepanova / Bukin - I enjoy them and applaud good scores here but I find her really messy.
 
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Areski said:
I remember one of the commentators in Poland noticing on TV during their Free Skate how Alex seemingly subconsciously reacted to Maia accelerating on one of her twizzle doing exactly the same as hers and matching her again in decimal part of second.

On S/B I guess you mean Stepanova / Bukin - I enjoy them and applaud good scores here but I find her really messy.
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No--Will I ever get initials right? Bobrova/Soloviev.....what do you love about them? What should I look for?
 
To lighten the thread a bit: Did anyone else *swoon* at Diaz's butt swivels while he's snapping at the beginning of their SD? It's my favorite beginning of any short dance this season. His pointing with lusty eyes too. So sexy.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
I didn't think V/M could be beaten after their SD advantage, but after seeing the FDs, I do think P/C did enough or were very close to it to bridge the gap. They performed that FD even better than I could have imagined and nearly made me cry with it. Honestly, I've seen Scott and Tessa perform that FD all season and they probably performed it the best at NHK or the GPF, and as much as I love their skating, seeing their product compared to P/C was stark. IMO, P/C's FD was in a totally different league. It is an amazing work of high art. V/M's FD, on the other hand, looked sort of basic in comparison. I usually prefer V/M, but not in the FD.
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ITA with everything you said and so did the judges. They won the FD easily. I have to wait till the 10th to see the SD on TV, but we got to see the FD last night. Their program was amazing and went by so fast, I couldn't believe it was over. I thought they were about halfway through when they finished. They create a mood and draw you in like nobody since A/P. If this competition was only the FD, they clearly won.
Their problem was with the SD.

This is the 3rd Worlds where they messed up and were behind in the SD, to come back in the FD. Twice they managed to win. But they weren't facing competitors of the quality of V/M then. This time they just couldn't make up the gap.

I don't understand why they keep screwing up the SD. When they can skate that magnificently in the Free, why can't they bring that special magic to the SD? I hope this will be a wake-up call to them - if they want that Olympic gold, they have to skate 2 great performances, not 1.

Maybe they need to approach the SD not like a SD, but thinking of it more like a mini-FD. Maybe create a story and a mood in their mind and then skate to that. I think rhumba lends itself to that kind of approach. Can they just use rhumba throughout or do they need to add another rhythm to it?

I think V/M won fairly even if FD wasn't their best performance. They should have gotten the -1 deduction for the fall, but even with that deduction the result would have been the same. About whether that fall was part of the element, our commentator was Kenji Miyamoto and
in his opinion the element was over and so it shouldn't have affected the mark for the steps. So he agrees with the judges and it did look like he was coming out of the turn and starting to skate when he tripped.

Leaving aside the top 2, who clearly deserved medals, this was the most disappointing Worlds Ive seen in a long time [maybe ever?]. The Jr Worlds had better performances than I saw here. We only saw the last group, but they looked slow, kind of sloppy and tentative, and skating with no conviction or attitude whatever that I could see. None of them deserved the bronze medal and I hope this was not a foretaste of what we'll be seeing next year. If it is, those upcoming juniors - I hope - could leapfrog onto the team.
 
cocotaffy said:
Basically the tech panel didn't do his job leaving it to the judges hence the confusion in the GOE.

On another note, anyone else surprised that the newlyweds LeGac/Lauriault didn't make the cut ? They couldn't get their levels compared to Euros. It's a pity, they're a lovely team with nice qualities.
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Yes I noticed...I kept watching to see is anyone after scored lower but they were stuck w/first couple to not qualify.//A shame..I find their skating beautiful
 
Tak said:
I think V/M won fairly even if FD wasn't their best performance. They should have gotten the -1 deduction for the fall, but even with that deduction the result would have been the same. About whether that fall was part of the element, our commentator was Kenji Miyamoto and
in his opinion the element was over and so it shouldn't have affected the mark for the steps. So he agrees with the judges and it did look like he was coming out of the turn and starting to skate when he tripped.
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Why should they get a deduction when it was not a fall? Tanith and Ben commented that it was a near fall and that his weight was not supported by his hand and that he was still on his skate.

Jackie Wong of rockerskating said they had just finished the step sequence so the element wouldn't be affected.
 
chantilly said:
It was not a fall, therefore the -1 deduction was not applied.
His hand touched the ice, not his knee or butt.
It's a GOE mark much like a hand down on a single jump or throw.
People need to stop calling it a fall.
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I thought the ISU definition of a fall was when most of your weight was supported by something other than your blade. Scott clearly put one hand then the other down on the ice to stop himself from falling forward, which means to me his weight was no longer mostly on his blade. If it was, he wouldn't have needed to put his hands down. I don't know why that didn't qualify as a fall to the ISU.

Have they changed their definition of what constitutes a fall? What criteria are they using now?

But like I said it really doesn't matter that much, because even with the deduction, the result would still be the same.
 
clairecloutier said:
I don't know why, but I really didn't have the overwhelming reaction to P/C's FD that so many people here did. Watched it with my husband and, TBH, we were both a bit underwhelmed. Felt they skated it better earlier in the season. Obviously we're the outliers here ;), so I'll have to rewatch to see what we were missing.
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We too didn't get it this time. Enjoyed it more at other events. It seemed like there was more arm flinging or flailing than I remember. I think I need to rewatch earlier programs and this one to see what bothered me this time.
 
Cachoo said:
Bobrova/Soloviev.....what do you love about them?
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I love the drama. Every program is a relationship. I especially love Anna Karenina because of the story.

I love that Ekaterina has worked so hard on her weaknesses. She has a lovely back. Her posture is fine now, IMO. Bobrova & Soloviev no longer skate with their hips miles apart when they skate face to face. They've really worked, and I think most of the complaints along these lines are people holding onto the past, similar to the complaints about Chinese spins--which are often better now than those of the pairs in the rest of the world.

I love that Bobrova & Soloviev's blues is a blues. It doesn't look like they are taking a romantic stroll through the park. It's hot & intense & leaves no holds barred in the interpretation.

I always liked their waltz from 2013. I first saw them at Skate America that year. And I saw them at SA this year. I do think they are a team that is best appreciated live.

Mostly, I love the comeback story. You see so many young dance teams that disintegrate at the drop of a hat--as soon as they drop in the national or international standings--without striving to climb back up. This is a team that came up the ranks at a really tough time for Russian dance. So many coaches had left the country. There were still all these crazy high expectations for Russian dancers based on the legacy of Russian ice dance. And these two really have to work for it. They aren't the creme de la creme. He's not miles taller than her and able to whip her around without effort. They aren't a larger team with super speed that appears to fill an arena with only a few crossovers. They don't look like they walked out of a modeling salon. But they've stuck with it, stuck together, & continued to strive to be better.

In 2013, they won Worlds bronze in Canada. It was a big deal because Russia hadn't been on the podium recently, and you knew, heading into Sochi, that a medal in 2013 set them up to win one at their home Olympics. But 2014 just wasn't their year. Lots of mixed feedback about their program. Mistakes at the GPF that ruined their chance to prove themselves internationally. And then watching their younger countrymen pass them at home on the Olympic stage (with a trip in the SD). Fans proclaiming that Ilinykh & Katsalapov would be the next Olympic Champions in 2018, etc. And then an awful, season-shattering injury that led to B&S missing the entire following season, watching I&Z take the Russian title & grab huge scores at their very first event of last season, a very tough draw on the GP circuit because B&S weren't seeded, making the final--despite that tough draw--and being ripped apart by Russian pundits because they split dances with the U.S.'s number 3 at the GPF, losing the SD at last year's Nationals to Sinitsina & Katsalapov, and then . . .

Pulling it together. Taking that Russian title back in the free skate, despite Soloviev's knee clearly giving him pain. Medaling at Europeans last year, with competitive scores.

And . . . getting banned from Worlds. I'd be ready to quit. I would have been so done.

But back this season. They went out on the B circuit & did their job this summer. Then, once again not seeded, having to start their GP season off at Skate America in a deep field. And, despite the home advantage at COR, a very tough road in order to qualify for the GPF. Overscored or not, they couldn't afford any mistakes at COR, and they did their job.

Do I think B&S are a top 5 dance team in the World? No, not really. I prefer Cappellini & Lanotte and would really like to have seen them finish fourth or fifth at this Worlds. I think Weaver & Poje are the faster team to B&S and have very similar performance strengths. I think the Shibs are SPECIAL, with exceptional synchronicity and positions as well as a magical relationship with each other & the audience.

But Bobrova & Soloviev are my favorite current Russian dance team. For all the reasons listed above.
 
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aftershocks said:
I appreciate you @kittysk8ts as one of the nice, sane and sensible V/M fans. So, I don't include all V/M fans in my tongue-in-cheek punching. I don't think my post was "mostly bashing of V/M and their fans." It was mostly a reflection of and ranting about what happened re the ice dance judging in Helsinki. And so I got it off my chest. That was my immediate reaction and I stand by it, except I don't include all V/M fans. I think my reaction was mild compared to some of the perpetual outrage and bitterness often expressed by V/M fans over the years, when things did not go V/M's way. There's a tendency for V/M fans to be overly sensitive. And there are so many on FSU, so other fans are often outnumbered. :yikes: I do give a lot of credit to Canadian fans for being probably the best fans in the world, and most of the time they are very generous to all skaters. But it's also evident that Canadians are generally very over-protective of their skaters.

As I said, I think V/M's SD has been great all season long and they deserve so much credit for how strong they have come back, which is not easy to do. In terms of their expertise, polish and experience, V/M have still got the magic. In that sense, of course they are still the better team overall. But the thing is, their FD is not that wonderful. I would rate P/C's, the Shibs', H/D's, and even G/P's FDs ahead of V/M's. But since V/M have that special magic and they've proven that their skills are still good, I understand them being rated ahead of everyone else on paper.

However, I do not think it's fair for V/M to get all the breaks when they don't perform that well and their training mates and fiercest rivals (P/C) do perform lights out.

The Shibs deserve a lot more than love, they deserve respect and they deserve credit for their excellence. They also deserve for fans to stop trying to tear them down constantly for picayune reasons. They are very competitive and they always come prepared, without whining about anything. In that way, they are a lot like D/W.

I have a soft place in my heart for W/P. It was rough for them with V/M coming back. But to be honest, V/M's decision to come back was made easier by W/P's less than stellar showing at 2016 4CCs and Worlds. Of course by that point, W/P knew that V/M were planning to come back and it may have affected them. The other thing is that W/P have needed to make changes in order to find a way to stand out more performance-wise. They are definitely trying hard and making a lot of progress under Morosov. So desperate measures can pay off. I wish W/P luck going forward. However, it's pretty clear that the Russian campaign to push B/S up as much as possible to try and set them up for a podium battle in Pyeongchang, is in full swing. I don't think B/S are better than either the Shibs, W/P, C/L, G/P or H/D.

This year it seemed to take forever for Worlds to finally arrive, and then it's suddenly over with a bang and a whimper. That's figure skating! :drama: :watch:

WTT is mostly a lark and the results don't have that much relevance, although it will be fun to see who is there, and to see how many teams will perform well after an intense season



But that's where your uber over-sensitivity shows. I did not criticize Scott for his behavior this weekend. My saying that Scott didn't initially smile in the kiss 'n cry after winning is not a criticism, it's an observation that's complimentary of his recognition that he did not skate his best but still won. And not in the way he would like to have won. Of course he's a competitor who wants to put his best out there every time. In Helsinki he didn't.
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This post is so nonsensical. And why do V/M "get all the breaks?" - hello, educate yourself on the rules of this sport and you'll have a clue why they're awarded levels, etc..:scream:
 
Jeanne7 said:
This post is so nonsensical. And why do V/M "get all the breaks?" - hello, educate yourself on the rules of this sport and you'll have a clue why they're awarded levels, etc..:scream:
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because v/m fans, and v/m themselves, are not allowed to whine and rant and be sensitive. only fans of other teams can rant, and post provocative stuff without being labelled "uber" or "hypersensitive". and as @aftershocks stated, and i stand by it.

apparently this is not bashing of ALL v/m fans:
Here's to Scott Moir, the picky & choosy tech panel, V/M fans, and the judges: :revenge:
 
I feel sorry for the Canadian and US ice dance teams that will be at COR next season. Be prepared for some major :confused: scores for B/S to prop them up for the Olympics. COR is always dodgy with their scores but this will be even worse in an Olympic year and i expect the North American teams to get royally screwed.
 
So we can be sure V&M will do Canada, P&C will do the French grand prix and Shibs USA.
What other grand prix will they take ? Maybe P&C who've never been there ?
 
MarieM said:
So we can be sure V&M will do Canada, P&C will do the French grand prix and Shibs USA.
What other grand prix will they take ? Maybe P&C who've never been there ?
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My guess is that V/M will pick NHK and P/C will take CoC, leaving the Shibs with Rostelecom. :yikes:

Unless the Shibs decide that facing V/M or P/C at one of those teams' events is actually preferable to dealing with the politiks at Rostelecom??
 
zilam98 said:
because v/m fans, and v/m themselves, are not allowed to whine and rant and be sensitive. only fans of other teams can rant, and post provocative stuff without being labelled "uber" or "hypersensitive". and as @aftershocks stated, and i stand by it.

apparently this is not bashing of ALL v/m fans:
Here's to Scott Moir, the picky & choosy tech panel, V/M fans, and the judges: :revenge:
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What did Scott even do this time? Did he forget to genuflect at P/C's feet? Or can people still not get over one heated comment he made almost six years ago?
 
clairecloutier said:
Unless the Shibs decide that facing V/M or P/C at one of those teams' events is actually preferable to dealing with the politiks at Rostelecom??
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Wouldn't the Shibs be stuck with Rostelecom? IIRC correctly, only one of the top 3 can be at each event, same with 4-6. I'm sure @kwanfan1818 can clarify.
 
Miloune said:
I think they've been there during their first senior grand prix season. Finished 7th I think hahaha
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V/M and P/C had a near collision on a practice or warm up for the FD at the French GP in 2013. Does anyone remember that? P/C apologized to them :)
 
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