U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

[jlai]

shiny cute kids are getting away with every single damn thing that Max has been criticised for over the last four years. Stroke-stroke-jump? It's okay when these kids do it! Pause in the program? It's okay when these kids do it! Or when an arteeste does it! Minimal choreography? It's okay when these kids do it!

Whatever your issue is with Nathan, Nathan does not stand around and pause (which Max used to do a lot of). And Nathan has better edges and really memorable footwork. And he is smart enough to always put that amazing footwork at the end so the judges, rightly or not, forgive the other parts of his program to some extent.

Also, USFSA picked an artist, Jason Brown, over Zhou the jumper, for worlds.

USFSA isn't for jumpers or artists. They are for winners. Sometimes they guess wrong as to who the winner will be. But they are not against Jeremy, or Brown, or Josh, or anyone, as long as they bring home medals.

 

[misskarne]

But they are not against Jeremy, or Brown, or Josh, or anyone, as long as they bring home medals.

Funny. They fcuked over the ONLY current US man who has won a GP - something even their precious Chen hasn't done. Max was practically perfect that whole damn weekend last year and what was his PCS? 84, just three points higher than his international best. And then Chen gets fcuking 91 PCS for a stroke-stroke-jump program this year.

But go on. The double standard doesn't really exist, because who cares, right? It's only Max. Who cares about Max?

 

[skatingguy]

To be fair to Nathan, he has much better skating skills, lines, carriage, and extension than Max.

 

[jlai]

They fcuked over the ONLY current US man who has won a GP - something even their precious Chen hasn't done.

There is something unique about every top skater's accomplishment (Max, Jason, Adam) that isn't replicated by someone else. (like Jason is the only US man who went to the Olympics. Nathan is the only one who won 4cc for a long time. etc etc etc.)
You're cherry picking to support your poor Max arguments.

You cannot compare PCS across seasons because numbers and rules change over time.

And if we are complaining about Nathan's inflation, Max's PCS was ridiculously inflated last year, from a program with no choreography and with lots and lots and lots of pauses. And the program was timed 4:21 and minus the pauses, how long was the program?????

 

[becca]

Nathan's a better skater than Max. Not to mention I am not so sure he would have gotten the same LUV from the USFSA if he hadn't medaled at the GPF. Has Max ever even made the GPF?

I do think in general the USFSA has had an issue of not supporting the good jumpers enough over the artists. I think Adam's win last year was RIDICULOUS.

The reason I thought it was ridiculous is Adam would never get those kind of PCS internationally, so why do you do it at Nationals?

To me the big PCS inflation should go to the skaters who prove they can compete with the top guns. Or a skater with beautiful artistry that is landing the really big jumps. (i.e a skate that can compete with the top guns)

They don't just inflate with PCS they do with GOE.

I just don't get or understand the point of doing it with skaters who aren't likely to be competitive. That's not being a Jason or Adam hater. They are beautiful skaters.

I think its a mistake a big one to give the artists inflated PCS.

 

[olympic]

So after four years of "IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE QUADS EW GO AWAY MAX" now it's "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE QUADS YAY YAY YAY!"

Fcuk you, USFS. Fcuk you.

And anyone who is throwing him on the trash heap is a short-sighted fool.

Girl. You're tripping

 

[VGThuy]

Nathan's a better skater than Max. Not to mention I am not so sure he would have gotten the same LUV from the USFSA if he hadn't medaled at the GPF. Has Max ever even made the GPF?

I do think in general the USFSA has had an issue of not supporting the good jumpers enough over the artists. I think Adam's win last year was RIDICULOUS.

The reason I thought it was ridiculous is Adam would never get those kind of PCS internationally, so why do you do it at Nationals?

To me the big PCS inflation should go to the skaters who prove they can compete with the top guns. Or a skater with beautiful artistry that is landing the really big jumps. (i.e a skate that can compete with the top guns)

They don't just inflate with PCS they do with GOE.

I just don't get or understand the point of doing it with skaters who aren't likely to be competitive. That's not being a Jason or Adam hater. They are beautiful skaters.

I think its a mistake a big one to give the artists inflated PCS.

This inspired me to look up the PCS from 2016 Nationals and 2016 Worlds just to see what the inflation was for the Mens team. The difference between Max's Nationals PCS and Worlds PCS was 5.5. Adam's was 4.94. Grant's was 8.64

 

[misskarne]

Has Max ever even made the GPF?

He should have and probably would have, except for a situation entirely out of his control.

I suppose at least I have one consolation should Max have his Olympic dream crushed again - at least this time whoever goes instead isn't going to be a total waste of an Olympic spot like Abbott was.

 

[Tahuu]

So after four years of "IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE QUADS EW GO AWAY MAX" now it's "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE QUADS YAY YAY YAY!"

Fcuk you, USFS. Fcuk you.

And anyone who is throwing him on the trash heap is a short-sighted fool.

We love both Max and Nathan. USFS hypes whoever delivers. Actually it's not a hype if they deliver. Sorry about your twisted rage and divisive mind.

 

[Willin]

Seriously. It's all about who USFS can promote as getting good results.

The fact is that USFS didn't have anyone with multiple quads in competition for at least the last three Olympics cycles, so they hyped the ones without quads/multiple quads who were getting the best results internationally (Brown, Abbott, Aaron, Lysacek, Weir, Miner, Farris). They also hyped the Juniors they thought would do well in Seniors, until they didn't, unless they had a major comeback (Rippon, Carriere, Mroz, Dornbush, etc.).

They will not promote Nathan and Vincent because they can do quads, they will promote them because they're the biggest chance for a medal at whatever event is next. And, let's be honest, people care a lot more about sports where people they like (ie. Americans like Americans in international competition) might win and therefore are more likely to watch the sport. So if you promote people who might win, more people will watch. Few every-4-years watchers know/care what a quad is - they just know it's supposedly impressive - they care that Americans win Olympic medals.

 

[Allskate]

I am so proud of Vincent. Both his SP and FS were absolutely clean at Jr. Worlds. Looks like the video of his FS has now been taken down, but it was spectacular. And he's far from an inartistic skater; he was so joyous during the entire program and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I missed the video. But congratulations to him on the win, on a great skate, and apparently for making the Olympic team.

 

[VGThuy]

You can find his FS on Dailymotion.

 

[Allskate]

You can find his FS on Dailymotion.

Thanks!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eys0z_jwc2017-vincent-zhou-fs_sport

 

[Jammers]

Seriously. It's all about who USFS can promote as getting good results.

The fact is that USFS didn't have anyone with multiple quads in competition for at least the last three Olympics cycles, so they hyped the ones without quads/multiple quads who were getting the best results internationally (Brown, Abbott, Aaron, Lysacek, Weir, Miner, Farris). They also hyped the Juniors they thought would do well in Seniors, until they didn't, unless they had a major comeback (Rippon, Carriere, Mroz, Dornbush, etc.).

They will not promote Nathan and Vincent because they can do quads, they will promote them because they're the biggest chance for a medal at whatever event is next. And, let's be honest, people care a lot more about sports where people they like (ie. Americans like Americans in international competition) might win and therefore are more likely to watch the sport. So if you promote people who might win, more people will watch. Few every-4-years watchers know/care what a quad is - they just know it's supposedly impressive - they care that Americans win Olympic medals.

Not sure why you put Max in with those other skaters who were hyped but didn't have quads since he's had multiple quads since at least 2013.

 

[Willin]

@Jammers I thought he only had one at a time? Recently he's just been doing the 4S twice in programs.

 

[misskarne]

@Jammers I thought he only had one at a time? Recently he's just been doing the 4S twice in programs.

Is that not the definition of a multiple-quad free skate? More than one? And he was the only one for at least three years consistently pulling that off. Of course, any time he tried to work on the jumps, he was howled at for his "bad artistry" and told that was what he should be working on, and any time he pulled back on the jumps to work on his artistry, he was howled at for not doing bigger jumps.

 

[pinky166]

The Max situation isnt comparable to Nathan or Vincent: 1.) his coming out party was in 2013, before quad mania erupted around the rest of the world 2.) he has only ever landed 4s in competition (no lutz, no flip, no toe) 3.) he's 25 and likely nearing the end of his career

The timing is a bit unfortunate in that I agree Max would probably be better received by the USFS & skating world in general had he been a teenager with quads now as opposed to several years ago, but that's life. Had Jason and Adam been at their prime with their current content during the Jeff Buttle/Evan Lysacek era, they would have a real shot at being world champion.

Life isn't fair and some of us actually do feel for Max. But why beat a dead horse?

At the most recent Nationals, Max bombed his SP and had a nervy FS and deservedly did not make the World Team. Yes, he was screwed over last year, but guess what so was Nathan. If Max had shown his best at this year's Nationals HE may have well been 2nd. But he didn't. Nathan did. Nathan made the GPF THIS season. Last season's GPF that Max maybe could have made is irrelevant - that was before Boyang Jin won a World medal, before Nathan was doing 4lz and 4f, before Hanyu was doing 4lo, before Shoma was doing 4f and 4lo, and before Vincent was doing 4lz.

USFS is all about what have you done for me lately? This season, Nathan Chen has done a lot, and now Vincent is too. Max did very well last season, but this season wasn't that great for him.

 

[jlai]

Max was never howled at for not trying the harder jumps. Like everyone else you don't get credit if you don't land though.

Unfortunately Tom z's team is not known for improving his skaters' pcs successfully, so I don't think it is really Max's fault or USFS's fault.

 

[Marco]

Interesting to note that even with Vincent's great outing at Junior Worlds, his SB is still some 10 points behind that of Jason's - which he obtained at Skate America.

At the senior level, with a potentially harder combo and harder solo jump in the short, an extra choreographic sequence in the free and generally higher PCS in senior comps, I would say their scoring potentials are pretty comparable at this point.

 

[misskarne]

^I would still lay the money on Jason to deliver in a high-pressure situation at Worlds before I backed the rookie Junior to.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I kinda think it WAS THE USA with the first WORLDWIDE mega-quad prodigy.... Tim GOEBEL...

He was the first to do the multiple Quads in a free. Did the USFSA hype and market him efficiently??

 

[wickedwitch]

Unfortunately Tom z's team is not known for improving his skaters' pcs successfully, so I don't think it is really Max's fault or USFS's fault.

Max chose to stay with Tom Z

 

[becca]

Interesting to note that even with Vincent's great outing at Junior Worlds, his SB is still some 10 points behind that of Jason's - which he obtained at Skate America.

At the senior level, with a potentially harder combo and harder solo jump in the short, an extra choreographic sequence in the free and generally higher PCS in senior comps, I would say their scoring potentials are pretty comparable at this point.

That is with Brown landing an underrotated quad and home ice. Jason has not shown the same level since then i.e. the injury.
The issue here is given his lack of technical content Browns got no room for error.

As for the whole Zhou is a rookie plenty of rookies do just fine at Worlds. Zhou would have nothing to lose. Now though he may be a rookie at the Olympics is that seriously better?

And if they deny Zhou a spot on the Olympic team next year due to lack of experience I will personally start the Go fund Me Account for his lawsuit.

At the end of the day I just don't see the benefit of bypassing Nationals in this case.

Nothing about Jason's skating this year screams I am a world beater I am ready to contend for a World podium. So why not let Nationals make the choice.
And when your talented jumper beats the more experienced star outright fair square go with it.

And invest in a kid who maybe two years from now could be heck maybe next year? A top world contender.



There are more important things than three spots too like building for your future.

 

[Dobre]

The U.S. sonograms have definitely arrived.
And they aren't ladies.

Way to go Vincent!

 

[morgan rye]

What does FC bring to Jason's skating? Just curious ...

My question too.

 

[BittyBug]

Politiks?

 

[misskarne]

Whatever else happens, I doubt he will be out-photoshopped.

He will show you the world, shining shimmering splendid...

 

[Seerek]

I kinda think it WAS THE USA with the first WORLDWIDE mega-quad prodigy.... Tim GOEBEL...

He was the first to do the multiple Quads in a free. Did the USFSA hype and market him efficiently??

Not sure the USFSA really felt the need to "hype" Tim as much when you had Michael Weiss (1999, 2000) and Todd Eldredge (2001) making the World podium during those years.

ETA: Remember that an 8 triple Weiss defeated a 3 quad Goebel to defend his 2000 National title.

 

[clairecloutier]

Thanks!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eys0z_jwc2017-vincent-zhou-fs_sport

Thanks for the link! What a great performance!

 

[becca]

The Max situation isnt comparable to Nathan or Vincent: 1.) his coming out party was in 2013, before quad mania erupted around the rest of the world 2.) he has only ever landed 4s in competition (no lutz, no flip, no toe) 3.) he's 25 and likely nearing the end of his career

The timing is a bit unfortunate in that I agree Max would probably be better received by the USFS & skating world in general had he been a teenager with quads now as opposed to several years ago, but that's life. Had Jason and Adam been at their prime with their current content during the Jeff Buttle/Evan Lysacek era, they would have a real shot at being world champion.

Life isn't fair and some of us actually do feel for Max. But why beat a dead horse?

At the most recent Nationals, Max bombed his SP and had a nervy FS and deservedly did not make the World Team. Yes, he was screwed over last year, but guess what so was Nathan. If Max had shown his best at this year's Nationals HE may have well been 2nd. But he didn't. Nathan did. Nathan made the GPF THIS season. Last season's GPF that Max maybe could have made is irrelevant - that was before Boyang Jin won a World medal, before Nathan was doing 4lz and 4f, before Hanyu was doing 4lo, before Shoma was doing 4f and 4lo, and before Vincent was doing 4lz.

USFS is all about what have you done for me lately? This season, Nathan Chen has done a lot, and now Vincent is too. Max did very well last season, but this season wasn't that great for him.

I don't think all of this explains Chen landing four quads and losing Nationals last year. And yes that's who I think should of won.

I do think the lowballed Chen and Max on GOE and gave Rippon way to high PCS/GOE.

Rippon is a beautiful skater for sure but not the most perfect PCS skater ever. He would never get those kind of PCS internationally so why they felt it necessary to give it to him at Nationals.

I personally think in general they have done a really bad job picking the folks to support.

As I mentioned earlier would even Nathan had gotten the clear annointinf fron USFSA that he got at this Nationals if the international judges had not made it obvious to them.

At last years Nationals Any. Other Federation. Would have given the title to Chen and thanked the skate gods for this gift....

And yes yes he had work to do presentation wise but he was and is a good skater and what he presented technical brilliance that could compete with any man in the world and they threw that away for yes a more pleasing skater but not someone has shown himself to be the best PCS skater in the world.

People keep on talking about how this is all about three spots. But no it's not. It's also about supporting the skaters who have a future in this sport and have the ability to compete for world and Olympic medals.

It's about showing confidence in them and giving them the opportunity to compete and exposure in front of the international judges quickly. It's about thinking long term and not just the immediate future.