U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[LilJen]

I'm very happy for them. It will be good to get some experience and some ranking points before they're forced to go senior.

 

[karmena]

I think you express yourself beautifully and I agree. They both were more beautiful with their old partners, even if Marissa hated Simon. (I'm sure that's an exaggeration.) And I like your idea that the right choreography could make them work as a pair. I hope they find it. Any thoughts on what kind of music or choreo that might be?

PS: No messing with Lyubov and Dylan!

Music could be... Mozart Symphony No 40, for example. It would be something completely new for both of them, and there would be no room for the old inward patterns to dominate the new partnership... It would be some sort of "shock therapy" to erase the old skating identity and to give them NEW WINGS/a new skating identity. Choreographically this peace of music is unlimited.

And then... hmmm...to give them some sort of lighthearted program, a program with a humour! to give them opportunity ( open a door!) to become a new pair with a new identity.

P.S. I am only a casual figure skating fan and that is only my humble opinion.

 

[Spun Silver]

Music could be... Mozart Symphony No 40, for example. It would be something completely new for both of them, and there would be no room for the old inward patterns to dominate the new partnership... It would be some sort of "shock therapy" to erase the old skating identity and to give them NEW WINGS/a new skating identity. Choreographically this peace of music is unlimited.

And then... hmmm...to give them some sort of lighthearted program, a program with a humour! to give them opportunity ( open a door!) to become a new pair with a new identity.

P.S. I am only a casual figure skating fan and that is only my humble opinion.

For a light program, the first thing that came to mind was "Let's Fall to Pieces Together, Why Should We Both Fall Apart?" That would be quite a switch from the Symphony in G Minor (a very interesting idea).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQF-kvbyxD4

Lots of humble and not so humble opinions here. You fit right in!

 

[kwanfan1818]

Duskova/Bidar's SP isd set to Mozart's Symphony No. 40.

As for Yao/Hale at Bavarian Open, Yes for experience and No for Ranking/WS points -- juniors aren't eligible for points from junior internationals.

 

[Spun Silver]

Duskova/Bidar's SP isd set to Mozart's Symphony No. 40.
.

They are amazing but they turned that music into an earsore. I would think there is room for other approaches. Let someone else take a crack at it!

 

[aftershocks]

Both of them, Marissa and Mervin, are excellent skaters and seems to be a very nice people ( and good friends) but, yes, they are sooo different stylistically/ and inwardly that a magic is not there.

Marissa does not seem subdued at all to me. The fact that Marissa/Mervin may have learned different jump techniques and are having trouble working that out does not mean they are different stylistically. Actually Marissa/ Mervin match up extremely well stylistically and they move well over the ice with a lot of speed. It's mainly the sbs jumps and throw jumps that they are having trouble solidifying.

There is definitely something special about M&M that could turn into something magical, if they can fix the jump technique problems. That's the only thing holding them back IMHO. They are one of the best stylistic pairs in the world, but they need to come together better in smoothing out their technique, gaining more jump difficulty and building confidence and trust in each other so that they can scale their hurdles.

...They both were more beautiful with their old partners,

Of course Marissa/ Mervin looked different with their former partners, but I would not term Simon and Marissa as having been 'beautiful' together. They had a certain look because of the huge difference in height, which allowed them to develop spectacular throws and lifts. But IMO, Simon had more of an awkward quality about his skating that did not quite match Marissa. They had a lot of trouble on combined spins because Simon was so tall, he had to be careful not to accidentally pull Marissa into the air while they were spinning (which would lose them points). Plus they had a lot of trouble trying to match their sbs spins due to their huge height difference.

Had Simon and Dee Dee Leng gotten together sooner, I think they might have matched up very well, but by the time they partnered and ran into injury difficulties it was too late for them and they both ended up retiring.

Mervin and Narumi Takahashi had developed a special bond and a very nice aesthetic together over five years. It was Julie Marcotte's choreography that helped Merv and Narumi shine -- they had some issues with their sbs jumps. Other than that, they did have a special quality together. Narumi never found another partner that was right for her. In addition, it was also Julie Marcotte who helped Marissa/Simon to find a better groove together choreographically, but I wouldn't call it beautiful.

 

[Chemistry66]

Erin Coleman/Derrick Griffin, the US Novice Pairs champions, are assigned to Challenge Cup in The Hague, NED! The event is scheduled for February 23rd-26th.

They're competing Junior instead of Advanced Novice because both are too old for ISU Novice, where the age limits are < 15 for the girl and < 17 for the boy, by the July 1st preceding the season. (Erin was 15 last June and Derrick is already 20)

It should give them a jump on Junior programs for next season though, which may be helpful since 2017-2018 is their only JGP-eligible season as Derrick turns 21 just a few weeks after the next season starts.

 

[Chemistry66]

2017 Intermediate Pairs Silver Medalists Jade Esposito/Franz-Peter Jerosch appear to have split. I noticed his bio on IPS today.

 

[aftershocks]

Maksim Chmerkovskiy gives a shout out to Ash & Tim, and to choreographer and former DWTS alum Serge Onik, who choreographed Caduc's programs:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BPoU8gZlN1r/

 

[Seerek]

Having just watched Europeans, I really do hope at least one of the Knierims or Denney/Frazier are reasonably on in Helsinki so that they avoid some freaky scenario where their placements are over 28 at Worlds.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ I'm not sure of the exact rules and I know you are trying to make a joke, but obviously there are rules limiting the number of pairs who can enter Worlds and teams must reach a certain score in order to even advance to the free skate. Last year, sixteen teams advanced to the free skate at Boston Worlds.

Quite obviously Haven is still recovering and struggling with the sbs jumps. Hopefully she is getting the help she needs now to be in better form. I am thinking that S-K/K and/or D/F should sit out 4CCs and compete at other comps for a tune-up prior to Worlds. However, I don't think that's going to happen, because 4CCs is seen as an important venue in the lead-up to 2018 Olympics, which will take place at the same rink.

Unless we are there to witness how well S-K/K are doing in their monitoring sessions, we don't know how they are looking at the moment. Certainly S-K/K will need to brandish their quad twist weapon to compete with teams in the first and second tiers at Worlds. James/Cipres have made a statement with their programs at Euros. Tar/Mor have improved, but I feel they are being overscored, since they still have things to work on with their connection, presentation skills, music selection and maturity. Their elements bedazzle, but that doesn't make them the best overall team. Who knows if Stol/Klim will skate completely clean.

Right now there's no clearcut winner even for top of the podium. Sui/Han are coming back from Sui's surgery, but they could win if at full strength. So any of top five teams could be on top of the podium (D/R, S/H, S/M, T/M, S/K). And then the second tier consists of J/C, Yu/Zhang (unfortunately there's Z/E who I think are boring and need to still work on a lot before pulling the scores they are getting). I think S-K/K with a quad twist and a relatively clean skate can certainly compete well with Z/E, Czech team newbies D/B, the Italians M/H, D-M/G, the Canadians S/B and I/M. If Haven is able to land the jumps, D/F are at least competitive with D/B, M/H, D-M/G, S/B, and I/M.

Therefore, S-K/K with a strong performance could be about 8-11, and D/F with a good performance could land anywhere from 10-14. It's not an automatic that both U.S. teams have to come behind everyone in the second tier. There are different pressures at Worlds than there are at Europeans, and ice is slippery. Plus, everyone entered at Euros is not eligible for Worlds. And let's not forget the machinations of politics and what happens at 4CCs in terms of placements.

Granted that S-K/K and D/F have to up their game, since that's the name of the game in this ultra-tough pairs field.

I see that some other teams, including M-T/M who will be at 4CCs, are looking to land the 2-axel, half-loop, 3-salchow that Ash/Tim debuted in their bronze-medal-winning fp at Golden Spin. And with Alexa/Chris flashing the quad twist, other teams like Tar/Mor have been practicing it. So U.S. teams are not without strengths and influence. After their disastrous attempt on a quad twist at Skate America, Tar/Mor have seemingly decided to just do what they do best and garner the quality points. I still think Tar/Mor's scores are rather high for a team that is still growing. If Tar/Mor win Worlds, they will jump from fifth to first. IMO, Tar/Mor's ascension in the scoring is partly as a result of V/T not being in the picture. Stol/Klim haven't yet rediscovered their consistency, so how they might fare at Worlds is unpredictable.

 

[Chemistry66]

^^ I'm not sure of the exact rules and I know you are trying to make a joke, but obviously there are rules limiting the number of pairs who can enter Worlds and teams must reach a certain score in order to even advance to the free skate. Last year, sixteen teams advanced to the free skate at Boston Worlds.

No, teams do not have to reach a certain score to advance to the Free Skate. The top 16 teams advance, regardless of their scores. It's usually in a certain range (~mid 40's-low 50's), but the 16th team could still get 10 points and advance if there were no other teams or all other teams scored lower.

Having just watched Europeans, I really do hope at least one of the Knierims or Denney/Frazier are reasonably on in Helsinki so that they avoid some freaky scenario where their placements are over 28 at Worlds.

Considering placement rules are as follows:
- Points equal to placement if 16th or higher
- Qualified for FS but lower than 16th still gets only 16 points (though this won't apply to Pairs since only 16 qualify for the FS)
- Competed in SP, but did not qualify for FS gets 18 points regardless of actual placement (except for 17th place pair who gets 17 points)

So for 2 spots:

- Worst case is if one of the US teams misses the FS, the other must get 10th or higher (or 11th if the team missing FS is in 17th place)
- Even if both make the FS, and one places 16th, the other only needs 12th or higher.

It's not impossible, but it's a very low chance that the US cannot maintain 2 pairs spots.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Thanks @Chemistry66. I noticed there were only 16 teams that advanced last year to the free skate, but I didn't know if that was a strict cut-off at 16, or based on a certain score. Thanks for providing the info on rules. Maybe they need to extend the cutoff to 18? It seems kind of brutal.

Because @Seerek mentioned a 28 placement, I figured that was an attempt at a joke.

It's interesting to note that the famous Xue Shen and Hongbo Zhao started out at their first Worlds in 21st place in 1994. That year 24 teams were allowed to advance to the free skate. Within five years, (1999) Shen/Zhao dramatically improved to place 2nd at Worlds with a silver medal. S/Z were first in 2002, 2003, and 2007.

There's a lot to be said for simply getting the chance to compete year after year. But so many factors are involved, not the least having the right coaching environment, finances, training time, attention to physical health, partnership trust, etc.

After James/Cipres success with John Z's coaching team, I'm wondering who else is gonna give John a call in the off-season. The young junior team who competed at senior Nationals this year, Weinberg/Fernandez recently moved from Peterson to Zimmerman's camp. Unfortunately W/F appear to be struggling with injuries, as are a lot of teams.

 

[Princessroja]

2017 Intermediate Pairs Silver Medalists Jade Esposito/Franz-Peter Jerosch appear to have split. I noticed his bio on IPS today.

That's a shame; I thought they looked good at nationals.

 

[Sylvia]

Esposito/Jerosch were a mirror pair - Jerosch is looking for a clockwise rotating partner, according to his IPS profile. He has grown a lot (yay for young, tall pair guys!) and I hope he can find a compatible partner and stay in the Skate Pairs program in the Boston area (he lives and attends high school in Maine). He will be 16 next month.

ETA: A local Maine article before Nationals says Jerosch made first chair clarinet for All-State Band and is a honors student.

 

[Jammers]

Why did D/F leave Zimmerman? Not a smart move to go to someone like Rockne who is just starting his coaching career while leaving a a more experienced coach like Zimmerman.

 

[Sylvia]

Why did D/F leave Zimmerman?

They went to Ingo Steuer before 2015 Worlds. At that time, he was considered the more experienced coach. I believe neither skater has given a reason publicly for that switch.

https://adivinesport.com/2016/09/21/interview-with-denneyfrazier/

Brandon: When Haven and I made the change to Ingo Steuer, it was right after Nationals [2015]. We never set an official plan for the next seasons. I mean, he’s an excellent coach, and we loved working with him. But he also had his family in Germany. We were talking about working a little in Chemnitz [Germany], and then him coming to the States to work with us. After the injury happened, Ingo had to go back to Germany for the majority of the year. He knew we were going to be rehabbing at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado. We kind of all came to the agreement that he would stay in Germany, and Haven and I would pursue different coaches. That’s how it happened. It was never that Haven and I don’t like Ingo, or it didn’t work out.

 

[clairecloutier]

Here's my take on the senior pairs at Nationals: http://bit.ly/2jFWlGk.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Thanks as always @clairecloutier. Many kudos for all the great work you do bringing us pairs event summaries, opinion pieces and interviews! I am truly loving the pairs discipline. How wonderful were James/Cipres, Savchenko/Massot, and Duskova/Bidar at Euros!!!

And U.S. pairs are definitely heating up. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Alexa/Chris and Haven/Brandon to be in good shape at 4CCs. I really wonder if either team aren't exactly ready whether they shouldn't try to take more time for healing and training to be at full strength for Worlds. I'd really love to see C/T have an opportunity to attend 4CCs in Korea. And I can't wait to see more of Ash/Tim, rocking it out!

My most recent avatar says it all about the current state of figure skating, as usual.

They went to Ingo Steuer before 2015 Worlds. At that time, he was considered the more experienced coach. I believe neither skater has given a reason publicly for that switch...

At the time of D/F's switch to working solely with Ingo Steuer, I recall reading something on IceNetwork from Brandon to the effect that they had decided to move solely to Steuer (despite not having a completely thought out plan for where they would train) because they were impressed by Steuer's strengths and his reputation as a coach. (Okay, yes, I found the article -- see below).

Apparently, everyone involved was mutually respectful of the change. It was also discussed by Brandon during a media conference call in the lead-up to 2015 Worlds. That conference call is likely no longer publicly available. I recall Brandon elaborating during the conference call about feeling like it was conflicting to work with both Zimmerman and Steuer. That certainly seems to make sense, in terms of Steuer having a strong personality and being used to working exclusively as a head coach, rather than as a consulting coach. I thought it was very cool of John Z to reach out to Steuer in the first place. Its worth noting that John Z apparently took D/F's decision in stride.

Haven/Brandon's decision to make the switch to train solely with Ingo Steuer began being discussed at 2015 U.S. Nationals according to the IN report:
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2015/03/23/114480254/scimeca-knierim-ready-to-make-splash-in-shanghai Scroll down

"'Having Ingo here and training us really opened [our] eyes,' Denney said. 'A coach like Ingo knows how to prepare a team -- mentally and physically -- to where we want to be in the future.'

'We saw the potential he can bring, and we work together really well,' Frazier said."

And then unfortunately post 2015 Worlds, Haven sustained her knee injury which took time to come back from. And, as already noted, Ingo Steuer was supportive during D/F's lay-off and in their subsequent decisionmaking on finding the best coaching environment. I think D/F are doing very well in their early stages with Brubaker and Berton in Chicago.

In retrospect, it appears that John Z all along had a vision of building a complementary, efficient and successful coaching team in Florida. With the work John Z is doing with Silvia Fontana, Jeremy Barrett, John & Sinead Kerr, et al, it appears his vision is taking shape. You can have the talent, ideas, and the vision, but it may often take time for things to come to fruition in terms of putting together professionals who work well together and acquiring a group of students who you can help to soar. Timing and luck are obviously enormous factors, but vision, talent and preparation are key.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

In retrospect, it appears that John Z all along had a vision of building a complementary, efficient and successful coaching team in Florida. With the work John Z is doing with Silvia Fontana, Jeremy Barrett, John & Sinead Kerr, et al, it appears his vision is taking shape. You can have the talent, ideas, and the vision, but it may often take time for things to come to fruition in terms of putting together professionals who work well together and acquiring a group of students who you can help to soar. Timing and luck are obviously enormous factors, but vision, talent and preparation are key.

FOR SURE!!!

Anyone know what Kyoko is doing these days? is she completely removed from skating???

Im loving this John Z team...

Question..is Jim P in the same city? And if so rink? I feel I should know this.... Anyway LOVING IT!!!!!

 

[Sylvia]

Anyone know what Kyoko is doing these days?

Kyoko Ina was in the kiss & cry at Nationals with the Junior pair of Vanessa Chen/Eric Hartley who are coached primarily (I assume) by Eric's dad: http://web.icenetwork.com/skaters/team/chen_hartley
They placed 6th in KC.

Question..is Jim P in the same city? And if so rink?

No. Peterson/Evora/Johnston are based in Ellenton, FL.
Zimmerman/Fontana/Barrett are somewhere in the Miami area (ETA: Coral Springs, last I heard, but more recently in Pembroke Pines, FL?).

 

[Cleo1782]

I think that it's obvious that at least the Denney's are coach hoppers (not saying it's a bad thing), but I believe Caydee started in Florida as a kid went to Co to Florida (with Peterson) back to Sappenfield only to re-team with Peterson and her partner Barrett then leave for Zimmerman then back to Sappenfield with Coughlin. D/F followed similar paths Co then to Florida (where Haven partner with Daniel Raad for a few seasons) then back to Florida, then back to Brandon and Sappenfield and back to FL again with Zimmerman then Ingo and then Rockne. Not to say they didn't pick up great habits from all coaches involved, just that they haven't really ever had a stabilized coaching situation for an extended period of time.

 

[Cleo1782]

FOR SURE!!!

Anyone know what Kyoko is doing these days? is she completely removed from skating???

Im loving this John Z team...

Question..is Jim P in the same city? And if so rink? I feel I should know this.... Anyway LOVING IT!!!!!

1. Yes I believe Kyoko had some teams (junior maybe?)
2. Zimmerman coaches at the Panther FSC while Peterson is in Soutwest Florida, so no, they aren't out of the same rink or even that by close by.

 

[aftershocks]

it's obvious that at least the Denney's are coach hoppers (not saying it's a bad thing)

I think you are making a knee-jerk assumption, which we all do at times. I had often wondered why Haven & Brandon ever broke up in the first place because they were always better together than with their former partners. Especially since they initially grew up together competing as a roller skating pair.

But as my avatar notes, we should keep calm sometimes and take a step back. @clairecloutier recently had a very enlightening interview with Haven & Brandon in which they explained why they had broken up and then gotten back together. Thanks Claire! It's about life. They were young, and one of the families happened to move away. I think it may have been the Denneys who moved to Florida (but I'm not certain). In any case, Brandon's pairing with Mandy Garza, and Haven's pairing with Daniel Raad happened as a result of the move (the move was a decision made by whichever set of parents for whatever reason that's none of our business). Fortunately, Brandon and Haven got back together fairly quickly -- they were made for each other.

And then the various relocations are as a result of trying to work out logistics with a partner, and a coaching environment. We see that happen all the time. Initially, Haven & Brandon were training in Colorado. Then, around the time they won Junior Worlds in 2012, they decided to make a switch to John Zimmerman in Florida. Who knows, perhaps being a younger team and Sappenfield having a lot of teams, D/F felt they would get more attention in John Z's camp. That could possibly be one of the reasons the young team of Weinberg/Fernandez recently made the switch from Peterson to Zimmerman. But we should probably keep in mind that there could be many factors involved in athletes' decisions that have to do with personal life concerns, logistics and other extenuating circumstances we are not privy to.

I think it's obviously true that there are an overabundance of partner switches, but again there are many reasons having to do with youth of skaters and growth issues, the modern pace of life in our global culture, and a variety of extenuating circumstances. Even when a partnership is working, there's no end to the number of sacrifices and decisions that have to be made, not the least those having to do with injury-related concerns.

So please don't accuse Haven/Brandon (or Caydee) of coach-hopping. D/F would likely still be with Zimmerman had Ingo Steuer not been brought in to consult and D/F were impressed by his experience. Had Haven not suffered her injury, maybe D/F would still be with Steuer. I think things have worked out for D/F in the long run. Stuff happens, and I'm sure D/F feel comfortable with the learning experiences they've had with all of the coaches they've been privileged to work with.

Why did D/F leave Zimmerman? Not a smart move to go to someone like Rockne who is just starting his coaching career while leaving a a more experienced coach like Zimmerman.

D/F were working with John Zimmerman when Ingo Steuer came aboard in a consulting capacity during 2014-2015 season. After 2015 U.S. Nationals, D/F decided to switch exclusively to Steuer with the reason partly being Steuer's experience and accomplishments. Earlier, in 2012, after winning the Junior World title, D/F had left Colorado and 'experienced' coach Dalilah Sappenfield to work with Zimmerman who at that time was in the midst of building his reputation as a coach. That was about five years ago, and a lot of things can change in that amount of time.

Unfortunately, Haven suffered that terrible knee injury shortly after the switch to Steuer was made in 2015. Steuer went back to Germany likely due to his family ties there and not having a training base in the U.S. Haven & Brandon may have been considering the possibility of eventually following Steuer to Germany for all we know. But during the course of Haven's rehab, all parties including Steuer agreed it was best for D/F to find a good coaching environment in the U.S. Enter Brubaker/ Berton camp in Chicago.

 

[Cleo1782]

I think you are making a knee-jerk assumption, which we all do at times. I had often wondered why Haven & Brandon ever broke up in the first place because they were always better together than with their former partners. Especially since they initially grew up together competing as a roller skating pair.

But as my avatar notes, we should keep calm sometimes and take a step back. @clairecloutier recently had a very enlightening interview with Haven & Brandon in which they explained why they had broken up and then gotten back together. Thanks Claire! It's about life. They were young, and one of the families happened to move away. I think it may have been the Denneys who moved to Florida (but I'm not certain). In any case, Brandon's pairing with Mandy Garza, and Haven's pairing with Daniel Raad happened as a result of the move (the move was a decision made by whichever set of parents for whatever reason that's none of our business). Fortunately, Brandon and Haven got back together fairly quickly -- they were made for each other.

And then the various relocations are as a result of trying to work out logistics with a partner, and a coaching environment. We see that happen all the time. For a time Haven & Brandon were training in Colorado, and around the time they won Junior Worlds in 2012, they decided to make a switch to John Zimmerman in Florida. Who knows, perhaps being a younger team and Sappenfield having a lot of teams, D/F felt they would get more attention in John Z's camp. That could possibly be one of the reasons the young team of Weinberg/Fernandez recently made the switch from Peterson to Zimmerman. But we should probably keep in mind that there could be many factors involved in athletes' decisions that have to do with personal life concerns, logistics and other extenuating circumstances we are not privy to.

I think it's obviously true that there are an overabundance of partner switches, but again there are many reasons having to do with youth of skaters and growth issues, the modern pace of life in our global culture, and a variety of extenuating circumstances. Even when a partnership is working, there's no end to the number of sacrifices and decisions that have to be made, not the least those having to do with injury-related concerns.

So please don't accuse Haven/Brandon (or Caydee) of coach-hopping. D/F would likely still be with Zimmerman had Ingo Steuer not been brought in to consult and D/F apparently ended up feeling a greater connection with Steuer and were impressed by his experience. And, if Haven's injury hadn't occurred, maybe D/F would still be with Steuer, if they had been able to find a good training location. I think things have worked out for D/F in the long run, so there's not really much to fingerpoint about. Stuff happens, and I'm sure D/F feel comfortable with the learning experiences they've had with all of the coaches they've been privileged to work with.



D/F were working with John Zimmerman when Ingo Steuer came aboard in a consulting capacity during 2014-2015 season. After 2015 U.S. Nationals, D/F decided to switch exclusively to Steuer with the reason partly being Steuer's experience and accomplishments. Earlier, in 2012, after winning the Junior World title, D/F had left Colorado and 'experienced' coach Dalilah Sappenfield to work with Zimmerman who at that time was in the midst of building his reputation as a coach. That was about five years ago, and a lot of things can change in that amount of time.

Unfortunately, Haven suffered that terrible knee injury shortly after the switch to Steuer was made in 2015. Steuer went back to Germany likely due to his family ties there and not having a training base in the U.S. Haven & Brandon may have been considering the possibility of eventually following Steuer to Germany for all we know. But during the course of Haven's rehab, all parties including Steuer agreed it was best for D/F to find a good coaching environment in the U.S. Enter Brubaker/ Berton camp in Chicago.

No knee jerk reaction. Just stating basic coaching changings which are true facts-not why or the reasons. I think you might be overthinking this. Haven was following her sister most of the time to keep the family relatively together, but they have gone to several coaches. It's just a fact. Most of the reason D/F broke up in the first place I think is because Caydee was paired with Barrett and had great success. I believe her and Raad did okay as well (maybe won a novice medal). The fact is the Denney's have always been on the move. Hopefully Rockne will be a long-term solution for them.
You put words in my mouth. I was not finger pointing. I just gave a run down about their coaching changes. I never said any of them were bad breakups with coaches or anyone holds ill will toward them. I wasn't degrading them or disapproving. It's just a fact that the Denney's have bounced around a bit with coaching. No biggie as long as they are progressing.......

 

[aftershocks]

^^ I do not think you can separate the extenuating circumstances and the fact that fans are not privy to all that goes into skaters' and their family's thought processes.

I admit that I had a knee-jerk reaction when I looked back recently and saw Haven and Brandon skating with their former partners at 2011 Junior Nationals. My first thought was why the heck did they break up in the first place? Obviously not the greatest of decisions I thought since they got back together very quickly and ended up winning 2012 Junior Worlds. It was all explained in @clairecloutier's recent interview with Haven and Brandon. For me that was eye-opening proof that we can never be sure of all that goes into decisionmaking when it comes to skaters' careers.

Yep 'finger-pointing' may be a bit harsh choice of words on my part. I just meant that being labeled "a coach-hopper' is also a bit harsh because of the negative connotation it gives (even though you didn't mean it that way).

The Denneys may have always been "on the move" due to family reasons, and clearly due to partner switches which necessitated relocations. That happens a lot for many skaters. It's the rare skater who spends their entire career with one coach in one location. Not to say it never happens: Matt Savoie and Brian Boitano are two examples.

Most of the reason D/F broke up in the first place I think is because Caydee was paired with Barrett and had great success.

You should check out Claire's interview with D/F. They were young when they broke up due to a move by I believe Denney's family to Florida. Whether or not the family's move was related to Caydee pairing with Jeremy Barrett, I have no idea.

Likely Brandon's family played a role in deciding for him not to move with Haven at that time. Remember that their ages were a factor, so they did not make the decision by themselves. There could be more to it than Haven & Brandon shared, or not.

ITA, no biggie. Wishing D/F success with Brubaker/Berton.

 

[Cleo1782]

^^ I do not think you can separate the extenuating circumstances and the fact that fans are not privy to all that goes into skaters' and their family's thought processes.

I admit that I had a knee-jerk reaction when I looked back recently and saw Haven and Brandon skating with their former partners at 2011 Junior Nationals. My first thought was why the heck did they break up in the first place? Obviously not the greatest of decisions I thought since they got back together very quickly and ended up winning 2012 Junior Worlds. It was all explained in @clairecloutier's recent interview with Haven and Brandon. For me that was eye-opening proof that we can never be sure of all that goes into decisionmaking when it comes to skaters' careers.

Yep 'finger-pointing' may be a bit harsh choice of words on my part. I just meant that being labeled "a coach-hopper' is also a bit harsh because of the negative connotation it gives (even though you didn't mean it that way).

The Denneys may have always been "on the move" due to family reasons, and clearly due to partner switches which necessitated relocations. That happens a lot for many skaters. It's the rare skater who spends their entire career with one coach in one location. Not to say it never happens: Matt Savoie and Brian Boitano are two examples.



Whether or not the family's move was related to Caydee pairing with Jeremy Barrett, I have no idea.

Likely Brandon's family played a role in deciding for him not to move with Haven at that time. Remember that their ages were a factor, so they did not make the decision by themselves. There could be more to it than Haven & Brandon shared, or not.

ITA, no biggie. Wishing D/F success with Brubaker/Berton.

Me too. I wish them the best. Denney/barrett showed amazing promise and broke up in 2008 and then re-teamed in 2009. Haven went with her. I don't think there was bad feelings (obviously) between her and Frazier and she had a partner that she was mildly successful with. Maybe it was time needed apart between D/F or an unwillingness to move. They were so young......it all worked out in the end

 

[kwanfan1818]

While I think that it would take dire circumstances for the US to not retain two teams for 2018 Worlds, in this thread, we've been discussing the scenario where not every team that qualifies two for 2018 Worlds will qualify two for the 2018 Olympics, because the number of Pairs who qualify for 2018 Olympics from 2017 World Championships is limited to 16. Typical of the ISU is the ambiguous language in the Special Regs that doesn't define what the "last" team(s) to qualify two is, but once that's decided, there's a good chance this season that some member will be limited to one, when their combined placement total for (top) two skaters is >13 and <=28 or a single entry ends in 10th place or higher.

 

[aftershocks]

Question..is Jim P in the same city? And if so rink? I feel I should know this....

As @Sylvia mentioned, Peterson and camp are located in Ellenton, Florida which is on the middle west coast of Florida near Bradenton and south of St. Petersburg, Florida: http://pics2.city-data.com/city/maps2/cm8056.png
Their training rink is Ellenton Ice and Sports Complex: http://www.ellentonice.com/figure-skating/coaching-staff/

John Zimmerman has been coaching at rinks north of Miami on the southeastern coast of Florida, a far distance away from Ellenton.
See this map of Florida and note the distance from Bradenton on the middle west coast, to Miami & Ft. Lauderdale in the southeastern coastal region: http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/states/florida/maps/florida-map.gif

Zimmerman/Fontana/Barrett are somewhere in the Miami area (ETA: Coral Springs, last I heard, but more recently in Pembroke Pines, FL?).

I couldn't find any definitive information on Zimmerman's training base. John Z's Wiki page indicates that he coaches at the Panthers Ice Den in Coral Springs, Florida, but I don't see him listed on the Ice Den's website (I do see Andrew Torgashev's Dad, Artem, listed as the Director of Skater Development). Clearly that was where John Z used to coach Haven and Brandon. Perhaps John Z has relocated, or he teaches in more than one location? Ft. Lauderdale was mentioned I believe on one of the recent telecasts.

Here's some info that mentions Pompano Beach, Florida, but this seems old: https://onlessons.com/instructor/view/Brojo1126
In any case, Coral Springs, Pompano Beach, Pembroke Pines, and Ft. Lauderdale, Florida are located in the same general area.
https://greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/florida/pembroke-pines/map-pembroke-pines/

I don't see John Z listed as a coach at the Pines Ice Arena in Pembroke Pines. The Glacier Ice Arena is in Pompano Beach, but no mention of John Z on their website either. Perhaps John Z's camp do still train and practice at the Coral Springs rink, but maybe John doesn't teach any private lessons there? Vanessa's and Morgan's Wiki pages state that they train in Coral Springs, Florida.

 

[Sylvia]

I don't see John Z listed as a coach at the Pines Ice Arena in Pembroke Pines

Rink websites are not always kept up-to-date. I recall seeing Zimmerman, Fontana and Barrett listed as coaches on the Panthers Ice Den website (Coral Springs) not that long ago, and their novice level pair that just won the national title and were given a junior international assignment (Coleman/Griffin, refer to post #67 above) train in Pembroke Pines, according to the IN article on the Novice Pairs FS that was published during Nationals.

The Pines Ice Skating School & Training Facility has a Facebook page and recent photos of James/Cipres and Coleman/Griffin can be found there.

ETA:

You should check out Claire's interview with D/F. They were young when they broke up due to a move by I believe Denney's family to Florida.

I posted the link to Claire's interview with Denney/Frazier in post #77 above. The Denney family is originally from Florida. IIRC, D/F were coached by Jim Peterson when they first competed at 2006 "Junior" Nationals at the Juvenile level (late 2005): http://www.usfsa.org/eventrelatedde...ents/200506/usjuniorchamps/juvpairs-final.htm
Cali Fujimoto/Nicholas Barsi-Rhyne finished ahead of them in 4th, D/F were 10th and Joshua Santillan (with his first? partner) was 13th in the final.