When Nicky and Simon misstep, they misstep.

[antmanb]

I like Let It Go...

Me too.

I don't mind it now if I hear it but back when Frozen came out every single little girl (and older) was skating to it. I was only doing a two hour patch session a week at the time but in that two hours we'd be lucky if Let is go was only on for an hour of that two hour sessions, often it was more

 

[antmanb]

Sorry for the double post but while we're criticising Nicky and Simon for the the various things they did, I finally got round to watching the Pairs SP last night and both Louise Walden and Christ Howarth mis-gendered Timothy in the Eurosport broadcast too. I did remember Chris not doing so at the Olympics and even agreed that I thought he might have kept Simon on the right track then, but at worlds he followed along with Louise's initial mistake.

 

[screech]

Scott and Tanith? Which ice dance teams would not be coached by their academies?

I remember when Tracey first really got involved with the coaching at TTC, and she was doing commentary. I found she was so good that unless you knew who her skaters were, you wouldn't know they were her students (aside from anecdotes when prompted)

 

[angi]

Sorry for the double post but while we're criticising Nicky and Simon for the the various things they did, I finally got round to watching the Pairs SP last night and both Louise Walden and Christ Howarth miss gendered Timothy in the Eurosport broadcast too. I did remember Chris not doing so at the Olympics and even agreed that I thought he might have kept Simon on the right track then, but at worlds he followed along with Louise's initial mistake.

I distinctly remember Louise referring to Timothy as "they" at least once so I think it's likely that when they didn't it was unintentional.

 

[antmanb]

I distinctly remember Louise referring to Timothy as "they" at least once so I think it's likely that when they didn't it was unintentional.

I don’t think they did it intentionally I think it was just an error but when Louise said “they” I thought it sounded like she was referring to the pair not to Timothy.

 

[overedge]

FWIW no matter how good a commentator is, if they have a student or client in the competition, they shouldn't be a commentator at that event. Even if they're fair in their observations, it still looks like a conflict of interest.

This IMO is one of the things that's allowed to go on that makes skating be perceived as not a "real" sport. A major league football or basketball or baseball coach would never be a commentator on a game their team was playing in. Former coaches, yes, but not current ones.

 

[tony]

FWIW no matter how good a commentator is, if they have a student or client in the competition, they shouldn't be a commentator at that event. Even if they're fair in their observations, it still looks like a conflict of interest.

This IMO is one of the things that's allowed to go on that makes skating be perceived as not a "real" sport. A major league football or basketball or baseball coach would never be a commentator on a game their team was playing in. Former coaches, yes, but not current ones.

FWIW we’ve already gone in this circle very recently and the fact of the matter is that almost everyone is connected in the small world of skating in some way. Even if it’s not a coach, there could be some other kind of connection. Tracy Wilson commented for years and years with Javier, Yuzuru, and Jason competing and she was actually more biased back in the Grishuk/Platov days where most of North America was hard at work with ‘B/K are so robbed!!!’ I don’t mind her at all otherwise throughout all these years. Johnny Weir has skated in shows and gone to visit certain skaters as of late, too.

Unless you want those who are so far removed from the sport and don’t know the first thing about newer rules, elements, use vulgarities, and talk about skaters’ bodies. Oh wait..

 

[bardtoob]

A major league football or basketball or baseball coach would never be a commentator on a game their team was playing in. Former coaches, yes, but not current ones.

But isn't that because they would be coaching as the team was playing?

FWIW no matter how good a commentator is, if they have a student or client in the competition, they shouldn't be a commentator at that event. Even if they're fair in their observations, it still looks like a conflict of interest.

Shouldn't it also be true if you run an ice show and you have to make contracts with skaters months before a major competition, and you can charge more per ticket or get a larger audience if you have the champion of said major competition in your ice show.

 

[overedge]

But isn't that because they would be coaching as the team was playing?

I guess it would depend on what position they held. The head coach probably couldn't but AFAIK there are position coaches and skill coaches that don't work every game.

Shouldn't it also be true if you run an ice show and you have to make contracts with skaters months before a major competition, and you can charge more per ticket or get a larger audience if you have the champion of said major competition in your ice show.

I don't see what that has to do with coaches or choreographers being in a conflict of interest by commentating on the results of their own work. But if an ice show sells tickets at a certain price, just like any other kind of show, it can't come back to the ticket buyers later and say, sorry, we have a champion in the show now so you have to pay extra to get in. A ticket is a kind of contract.

 

[bardtoob]

I don't see what that has to do with coaches or choreographers being in a conflict of interest by commentating on the results of their own work. But if an ice show sells tickets at a certain price, just like any other kind of show, it can't come back to the ticket buyers later and say, sorry, we have a champion in the show now so you have to pay extra to get in. A ticket is a kind of contract.

That's why contracts are negotiated several months in advance.

 

[overedge]

That's why contracts are negotiated several months in advance.

I still don't understand what this has to do with broadcast commentators and conflicts of interest.

In any case, I suppose a skater could negotiate a contract with an ice show that gives them more $$$ if they have a title by the time the show goes on tour. But either the promoter would have to budget for the possibility of having to pay that extra $$$, or they would have to cut costs somewhere else. They could change the ticket prices for the unsold tickets, but that might scare away potential customers who suddenly have to pay more than they would have had to before. The promoter definitely couldn't tell people who had already purchased tickets, well, you now have to pay X dollars more to get into the show.

 

[bardtoob]

n any case, I suppose a skater could negotiate a contract with an ice show that gives them more $$$ if they have a title by the time the show goes on tour. But either the promoter would have to budget for the possibility of having to pay that extra $$$, or they would have to cut costs somewhere else. They could change the ticket prices for the unsold tickets, but that might scare away potential customers who suddenly have to pay more than they would have had to before. The promoter definitely couldn't tell people who had already purchased tickets, well, you now have to pay X dollars more to get into the show.

Don't get me wrong. I do think you have some of this more right than I do, but I still think there is a conflict of interest between being an ice show owner and a commentator.

On the other hand, you were probably thinking more about coaches and choreographers, so my comment about ice show owners probably seemed sideways to you.

 

[gkelly]

Commentators can't really affect the results of the competition in progress with their commentary. The judges/tech panels aren't listening to the commentary.

(I can think of a few possibilities where what was said in a SP broadcast might end up having an effect on FS results, at least indirectly.)

What commentators do affect is viewers' perceptions of the event, who should have won or should have been scored higher or lower, etc. And that would be just as true for commentators who have a vested interest in promoting a specific skater because the skater is their student and also for commentators who have a vested interest in promoting a specific skater because they have signed a contract with that skater to appear in their show.

 

[overedge]

Commentators can't really affect the results of the competition in progress with their commentary. The judges/tech panels aren't listening to the commentary.

(I can think of a few possibilities where what was said in a SP broadcast might end up having an effect on FS results, at least indirectly.)

What commentators do affect is viewers' perceptions of the event, who should have won or should have been scored higher or lower, etc. And that would be just as true for commentators who have a vested interest in promoting a specific skater because the skater is their student and also for commentators who have a vested interest in promoting a specific skater because they have signed a contract with that skater to appear in their show.

Yes, this. And commentators are more public in their work than promoters are. If a promoter is politicking behind the scenes to get a skater to win, so the promoter can make more $$$ if that skater is in their show, the public doesn't see that. If a commentator is praising a skater that they coach or whose program they choreographer, that is very different IMO.

The only commentators I can recall who were also promoters were Dick Button and Scott Hamilton, and I think in Scott's case IMG or one of the other sport management firms was financing the show (SOI). Are there others that I'm not remembering right now?

 

[Karina1974]

Key point there. It's also why ABC gave us Verne Lundquist for so damn long. It was a place where old and out of touch commentators went to die.

Verne was on CBS.

 

[manhn]

Don Cherry was a commentator and as a Canucks fan, I was FURIOUS that a CANADIAN channel had someone favouring an AMERICAN team over the Canucks.

When it comes to pro sports, I don’t want “objective” commentators? I want them to be homers. I suppose it may be a bit different for national broadcasters but I can’t think of a skater commentator who drools over any one skater the way the broadcasters do over Sidney Crosby or Tom Brady.

 

[overedge]

@manhn coughRodBlack&Elviscough

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Don Cherry was a commentator and as a Canucks fan, I was FURIOUS that a CANADIAN channel had someone favouring an AMERICAN team over the Canucks.

Did you have to go and remind us all about Don Cherry, his ridiculous suits and totally inappropriate commentary?

 

[Lizziebeth]

She got a degree so it’s not all natural and she prepares thoroughly. What looks natural is the result of a lot of work.

I agree. Tanith does her homework and makes it look easy. She is not winging it.

 

[litenkyckling]

I've watched events from worlds this year on both Eurosport and the BBC. I personally quite like Chris - I don't always agree with him but I like that he has an opinion but is quite open about the fact that that is his opinion. (Anyone else remember him saying during Euros 2019 that Spodyriev's skating skills made him feel sick?). I thought he was better here though because he had someone with knowledge alongside who reined him in and was happy to question him sometimes. I think Louise was good but her style wasn't totally for me.

We only get Robin Cousins a couple of times a year at most, but he was good here I feel. During the Olympics I really appreciated how he commentated Valieva - with the compassion that she deserved. I think he maybe cried during it because he felt so bad for her and how poorly she had been treated by those around her. He really does give the athletes persepctive very well. Katherine Downes is ok but also there for the broadcaster - tells you fluff you don't care about or is inaccurate. Do I care what dogs Chock and Bates have? No. Have P/C formally announced that this will be there last competitive skate? No, but according to her it was.

I like Ted for juniors, as he is respectful and encouraging. But the seniors? It's not for me, I'm afraid.

Like most people, my favourites are Mark and Tanith. They bring so much knowledge and clearly have read as much as they can about each and every competitor. They are respectful whilst also being critical. That being said, they do clearly have their personal favourites and that shows sometimes so it would be good if they were a little more upfront about that. Overall though, so clear and insightful enough for dedicated fans whilst also being accessible enough for casual or new fans. I do wonder if Tanith will continue now though - is it fair for her and Charlie to commentate at Nationals? Maybe not. Internationally is maybe more fair.

One final thought - during an instagram live with Jackie Wong last year, Mark said that he tries to never be nasty about any skater because when he competed at Euros (or Worlds maybe?) a Eurosport commentator said something about his skating that really hurt him. He got an apology, but it still made a big impact on him. This would've been around 2008-2010. Wonder who it was

 

[Judy]

I like listening to a lot of commentators but I’m really limited now.

 

[mella]

We only get Robin Cousins a couple of times a year at most, but he was good here I feel. During the Olympics I really appreciated how he commentated Valieva - with the compassion that she deserved. I think he maybe cried during it because he felt so bad for her and how poorly she had been treated by those around her. He really does give the athletes persepctive very well.

Interesting... I haven't watched a BBC broadcast since 2006 as a result of some of the ridiculous mistakes made by RC when he was commentating. Drove me mad. Maybe I should try again! Whilst not a fan of Nicky or Simon I generally found Chris balanced both of them out when working alongside them and will correct them.

One final thought - during an instagram live with Jackie Wong last year, Mark said that he tries to never be nasty about any skater because when he competed at Euros (or Worlds maybe?) a Eurosport commentator said something about his skating that really hurt him. He got an apology, but it still made a big impact on him. This would've been around 2008-2010. Wonder who it was

Almost certainly 2 of the Simon/Chris/Nicky combo I'd guess.

 

[kwanfan1818]

While I find many things inexcusable about Slater's and Reed's commentary on mic, especially their weight shaming, and certainly what they thought were their off mic comments about Duhamel, IMO that they could even claim to know nothing out loud is entirely on the ISU, who chose incompetence for their marquee championship.

Since I've given up on most of the judges to judge accurately and according to code, particularly across the field, and the tech panels to apply the technical rules consistently, I thoroughly enjoyed Slater's and Reed's emphasis on arms, carriage, movement quality, live speed, size of jumps, and ice coverage, because those are the things I care about. I have the tech tracker to let me know what the elements are, and it seems like the commentators are given access to what is being entered and reviewed, which they conveyed, even if the tech tracker isn't as informative as it has been in other competitions. Thanks to FSU, I'm aware of most of the rules, even if they go through my sieve brain at times. It's not like I learn that much from anyone on CBC, Weir and Lipinski, et. al., and when you have a single commentator, even Barton and Kwong have run out of adjectives by the end of four days. (It's amazing that they make it that far.)

 

[VGThuy]

One final thought - during an instagram live with Jackie Wong last year, Mark said that he tries to never be nasty about any skater because when he competed at Euros (or Worlds maybe?) a Eurosport commentator said something about his skating that really hurt him. He got an apology, but it still made a big impact on him. This would've been around 2008-2010. Wonder who it was

That’s funny because during his first time commenting ice dance at Worlds 2016, I wondered why he was so nasty towards the Shibs during the SD where he attributed their success to the USFS politicking. In a later interview, I found out that he thought Madison Chock was the best female ice dancer competing.

 

[tony]

That’s funny because during his first time commenting ice dance at Worlds 2016, I wondered why he was so nasty towards the Shibs during the SD where he attributed their success to the USFS politicking. In a later interview, I found out that he thought Madison Chock was the best female ice dancer competing.

I've seen you bring up S/S 2016 Worlds several times, so I found a video of Mark's commentary from that SD and he was pretty complimentary towards them, saying that was the most personality she had shown in any of the 5 senior seasons and pointed out some of the technical strengths they had ('perfect synchronization', for example). He also mentioned the hype they had built that season and they could potentially play spoilers for gold at that Worlds- nothing about the USFS though? The only thing I can hear is that he said he personally liked the interpretation of Madison and Evan better. Am I missing something (such as him saying something during other skaters)?

 

[litenkyckling]

I've seen you bring up S/S 2016 Worlds several times, so I found a video of Mark's commentary from that SD and he was pretty complimentary towards them, saying that was the most personality she had shown in any of the 5 senior seasons and pointed out some of the technical strengths they had ('perfect synchronization', for example). He also mentioned the hype they had built that season and they could potentially play spoilers for gold at that Worlds- nothing about the USFS though? The only thing I can hear is that he said he personally liked the interpretation of Madison and Evan better. Am I missing something (such as him saying something during other skaters)?

Exactly - he does criticise but he’s never nasty or personal about it. For example he’s very open about thinking no one can touch P/C, but alternatively one team he’s never been all that complimentary about is C/P but he’s never cruel about them.

 

[AYS]

Exactly - he does criticise but he’s never nasty or personal about it. For example he’s very open about thinking no one can touch P/C, but alternatively one team he’s never been all that complimentary about is C/P but he’s never cruel about them.

Wracking my brains here. Crone and Poirier?

 

[BittyBug]

Wracking my brains here. Crone and Poirier?

Carreira and Ponomarenko?

 

[litenkyckling]

Carreira and Ponomarenko?

Yes them - one of the few teams who have happened to be at many of the few events he’s commentated at since 2018 (on both isu and Eurosport)

 

[hoptoad]

I've seen you bring up S/S 2016 Worlds several times, so I found a video of Mark's commentary from that SD and he was pretty complimentary towards them, saying that was the most personality she had shown in any of the 5 senior seasons and pointed out some of the technical strengths they had ('perfect synchronization', for example). He also mentioned the hype they had built that season and they could potentially play spoilers for gold at that Worlds- nothing about the USFS though? The only thing I can hear is that he said he personally liked the interpretation of Madison and Evan better. Am I missing something (such as him saying something during other skaters)?

lol, I can see how that might sound derogatory from a fan's perspective.

Well, you've kind of sucked for as long as I can remember, but this was an improvement.