What is artistry?

I think @gkelly's Skaters A and B sound most like what I would like to see. I also like the phrase "purposeful movement," @sap5.

If I may geek out in a different direction for a moment: I'm an INTP. I am in my head analyzing things constantly. So what makes an experience noteworthy to me is when I stop thinking for a while. I can lose myself in figure skating because it's pretty and it looks effortless. The less those words apply, the more likely I am to start making judgments and focusing on my thoughts instead of seeing what I'm looking at. The music, to me, is not absolutely essential but does help greatly to catch and hold my attention.

... So that's what makes for a pleasant viewing experience for me, but is it actually the same as what I consider artistry? Actually, I think I avoid labelling people as artistic precisely because I don't feel confident judging all the aspects it may include. Ah... this question is going to take me longer than I expected. Possibly years.

Carry on.

If you observe a performer (musician, dancer, skater, gymnast, etc.) and have been genuinely moved in some way, then YOU have had an artistic experience, which is intimately personal and defies scrutinous definition.
Oh, I love that twist. :)
 
To you, clearly. Others may have different priorities.



In the Program Component definitions, you mean?
(Or do you mean that all art, including literature, painting, etc., are all about music??)

Performance
Involvement of the Skater/Pair/Couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they
deliver the intent of the music and composition.
*Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement and projection
*Carriage & Clarity of movement
*Variety and contrast of movements and energy
*Individuality / personality
*Unison and "oneness" (PS, ID)
*Spatial awareness between partners

Yes, all these criteria are meant to be demonstrated while delivering the intent of the music (and the composition; see next section), but they don't mention music specifically in the individual bullet points. Is it possible to demonstrate any or all of those criteria with no music playing, or with a generic relationship between the mood of the music and the mood of the performance? I believe the answer to that question is "Yes."

If you can watch a practice session or warmup while no music is playing and single out one or more skaters/teams as artistic in the sense of showing great carriage & clarity or individuality/personality or unison, then doesn't that argue that parts of their artistry are not directly related to music?

And what about someone who, e.g., shows a great emotional connection to the emotion of the music -- dramatic or romantic or lighthearted movement and facial expression to dramatic or romantic or lighthearted music -- but the movements don't actually match the rhythm and the skaters would get dinged for being off time by ice dance judges? But they could still be rewarded for meeting that first Performance bullet point especially well. Is that not artistic?

Composition
An intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the
principles of musical phrase, space, pattern, and structure
*Purpose (idea, concept, vision, mood)
*Pattern / ice coverage
*Phrase and form (movements & parts of the program to match the musical phrasing)
*Originality of the composition

Looks like music is relevant to 1/4 to 1/2 of these criteria and the other criteria can be easily fulfilled with no music or background music.

"Ice coverage" in the sense of skating fast on deep edges might not be considered an "artistic" criterion, but laying out the pattern and elements of the program in a way that uses the ice surface as a canvas to create a visually satisfying pattern across the time of the program surely is.

Interpretation
The personal, creative, and genuine translation of the rhythm, character
and content of music
to movement on ice.
*Movement and steps in time to the music (Timing)
*Expression of the music's character/feeling and rhythm, when clearly identifiable
*Use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music
*Relationship between the skaters reflecting the character and rhythm of the music (PS, ID)
*Skating primarily to the rhythmic beat for the Short Dance and keeping a good balance between skating to the beat and melody in the Free Dance (ID)

This component is all about the music. But it's only one of the three "artistic" components.

I just mean, it's skating. You can have a lot of artistic qualities, but if it doesn't make sense with your music, or if it could be any music playing and you wouldn't know based on their movement, then is it really something that should be considered artistic in skating? That's what I mean.

These are all programs, they're all dependent on the music in a sense or it wouldn't be a skating program at all? I feel like the root of all artistry in skating comes from connection with the music, how you express/interpret/perform, those are all the final 3 component scores.

I don't really consider strong skating skills or lots of transitions to be tangible artistry, I consider it to be strong skating. IMO the final 3 components sum up artistry in skating. Not in painting, drawing, sculpture, other forms of art - but in skating it does.

Figure Skating is performance art.
 
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Okay, my two cents...

As a professional musician for my entire life, I've learned that artistry (and musicality) is one of those topics that is constantly argued and never, ever agreed upon.

Most professional musicians (hopefully all) have learned what I refer to as the "mechanics of musicality," if you will: how to shape musical lines, how to accent notes, to taper phrase endings, how to color and nuance, etc. And yet, a performer may do all of these things and still leave certain listeners cold, while others marvel and revel in the experience. Other performers may be rough around the edges, in terms of polish, but still move an audience to tears.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that artistry cannot be adequately defined. The way I look at it is this: if you observe a performer (musician, dancer, skater, gymnast, etc.) and have been genuinely moved in some way, then YOU have had an artistic experience, which is intimately personal and defies scrutinous definition.
This I understand. Jason Brown leaves me cold. Ashley Wagner does nothing for me. But, Michelle Kwan moved me many times. My benchmark is when a skater makes me stand up even while I'm at home all by myself. It's happened only a few times. Hanyu has done it. Volo/Tarnkov/ Savchenko with both her partners, Stolbova/Klimov. Sometimes it's because I'm excited for the skater: Sotnikova's Olympic free skate. Sometimes it's emotional: Kostner. But the skate moved me. That is artistry to me. And it's not just the choreography because the skater might skate the same program many times, but that one skate was the one.
 
It is so very subjective. I preferred Karen Kwan to Michelle. Loved her line, extension and musicality. I loved Jason's Riverdance....but I think that may have been a one-off.
I could watch Sasha just take a pose for 4 minutes. I think COP has made it easier to quantify things, but more difficult to judge.
The part that can't be measured is the part that really moves you.
Medvedeva is a refrigerator break for me. I try.....but.........
Daleman and Osmond have so much heart. They are special out there.
 
If you prefer one style of artistry to another, that's a totally different argument IMO. But if one skater/program connects with you, moves you, or just flat out works, it's in large part because there's strong choreography/performance ability/interpretation there with their music that makes you connected with it. Artistry is a subjective thing, yes, but the point is that artistry in skating stems from those last 3 components. What you prefer is what you prefer, it's not dependent on whether you actually like what they're producing or not.

Painting, drawing, etc are different types of art and shouldn't be comparable to the artistry in skating IMO. Ballet and different forms of dance are in the same arena as figure skating artistically IMO, it's all performance based.

For me a good example is Evgenia. I will probably never like Averbukhs choreography for her, she doesn't do it for me, but I still find her to be an artistic skater because she's performing her music and is nuanced, fluid, expressive.... I just don't really like it. It does nothing for me emotionally or creatively. That doesn't mean she's not artistic though!

And then take Patrick Chan. Amazing skating skills, total mastery of the blade - but he's not just showcasing skating skills in his footwork sequence. Every step, every gesture, every second has a purpose with the music, and his skating skills and interpretation are going hand in hand. That's why his footwork sequences are so brilliant, it's not solely because Patrick has fantastic skating skills. There is an amazing musical connection there and his feet are expressing the tempo's/nuances in the music.

Every single time a skater/choreographer put a program together, the music dictates what choices they make to construct that program. Every single choice.

Were figures considered artistic or technical? I would say technical..
 
To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart when discussing whether something was porn, "I know it when I see it." I think that applies to art. I think it's a very individualized thing and we all have our own measurements, standards, and definitions of what constitutes "art". When it comes to performance art, I think people have a more agreed-upon idea of what those standards should be. But as Karpenko pointed out, one can understand someone making art but still not enjoy that art or be moved by it.

What skateboy said sort of reminds me of the 1990 Worlds Duchesnay v. Klimova/Ponomarenko. Most agree that what the Duchesnay did was art and there's very little debate about that. They were raw, passionate, musical, and emotional. However, some found K/P cold, technical, and boring. But what I saw with them was a beauty and incredible work and heart put into their choreography and the attention they put into choreographing the intricate steps, holds, and combining it with the music of My Fair Lady. I think both were artistic statements. Just one was more moving to some than the other.

I think I have a wide definition of art myself because I also see the art in a skater putting a lot of time and effort into technical mastery and with things where you know the skater(s) put a lot of effort and heart into (such as the execution of technically precise lines, edges, head/shoulder/neck placement, etc.) Lord knows I'm a Shibs fan and I know how many find them boring or just nice, but I always felt the artists in them and how hard they worked to really put out a style that they felt was important to showcase even if it didn't always work.
 
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Right! In that case it became, which style do you prefer? Who did their style better? (and had the larger impact with it)

If both of them are performing their style/music choice to a top notch ability, then the subjectivity comes into play. That's what makes skating awesome, you can artistically "get there" by taking many different paths. Not every path and skaters style will connect with you, but you can still see and acknowledge those qualities even if you don't like them.

It's what's turned me into an Evgenia fan honestly, plus how she's so consistent. I don't like it, but she's artistic even if the choreography looks jank.
 
Right! In that case it became, which style do you prefer? Who did their style better? If both of them are performing their style/music choice to a top notch ability, then the subjectivity comes into play. That's what makes skating awesome, you can artistically "get there" by taking many different paths. Not every path and skaters style will connect with you, but you can still see and acknowledge those qualities even if you don't like them.

Your quote about Medvedeva is perfect to me. I don't appreciate most of her programs, BUT I cannot deny she is seriously taking her programs seriously and is portraying the story she and Averbukh came up with. She really gets into the program and I don't know how many skaters actually could. To me, she's making art even if I don't like it or don't totally buy her in it. However, I know she buys it, and that's what matters ultimately.
 
you mentioned many things..
for me:

-Moves in general, gesture, hands, arm movements. But most of the time these things lose their significance if I don't see passion, emotions, real expression. ( I became a fan of Hanyu in his first R&J program. His passion, anger hooked me so much!) Without these thing the skatings are very nice slipping for me.
-Diversity. I like to see love, fun, anger, passion, playfulness, tragic, story telling, etc from one skater. Who makes one type of programs even in exhibitions I don't think he has the biggest artistry. For example Johnny had some very suprising programs but Lambiel is always the same. But I know this is very subjective..
For me the art is very different in general and in FS, too.
 
Yet, we do score artistry. I can appreciate the fervor of an off-key performance at an open-mic session. (I once sat through a set of a jazz group whose trumpeter was tone-deaf). But, I would expect a record producer to judge the performance in the context of the technical standard, historic approaches to the material, and evolving trends. I think this is why certain skaters don't make it past being a phenom in their own time. They were a one-trick pony with perhaps limited emotional range. In the end I think Lambiel is remembered as the greater artist over Joubert though I believe Brian sometimes beat Stephan. Likewise, Med is fervent in her teenage kind of way but surely not to be compared artistically to Kostner.
 
Scoring is something else all together and I never "score" skaters. I don't know enough about the technical details and don't care as that's why there are judges and technical experts. I don't score the PCS. As @gkelly points out, the actual scoring system for PCS explains the scores and is ignored by many people who :drama: over who should have the highest PCS scores. If two skaters/teams are essentially evenly matched, they could go either way. I don't even bother.

I like the sport of skating. I like competition and don't particularly care for exhibition. I like what I like. And, I think the judges get it right far more than they get it wrong in terms of awarding points.
 
I think when you link artistry too much to music then there's an element of musical snobbery that comes through in people's opinions.

I think @gkelly highlighted loads of important ways in which pure artistry doesn't have to necessarily be backed by music. I've seen elite level ice dancers warming up with edges drills and turns that showed artistry in the positions they hit in their upper bodies, arms, fingers, the lines, the knee bend, the ice coverage.

Skaters practising programmes while other music is playing, who still convey the feeling of their own music through their body language (despite another piece of music playing).

I find that i'm too influenced by the musical choice. At the GPF in Barcelona in 2015 I never realised how much the music from Turandot actually moves me. While I loved Shoma Uno's performance, his performance level wasn't what moved me it was the actual music. Conversely, Hanyu, whose entire performance was mesmerising, didn't move me to the same extent because I didn't connect with his music in the same way.

Them's my random thoughts!
 
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Of course what scores well in PE, CO, and IN with judges because it ticks the right boxes isn't necessarily the same as what "scores" well with audiences because the skater connects with the fans on an emotional level, through the music or otherwise.

Or because a skater meets criteria very well by artistic standards but not by skating standards.

And the opposite is certainly possible as well.

So when we talk about what we consider artistic, we're not always talking about who deserves the highest PCS.

For example, the Grassroots to Champions choreography competition encourages and rewards skater choreographers for developing artistic pieces, but many of the most artistic pieces choreographed for that purpose would not work in the context of a competitive program.

Same with a lot of Ice Theatre.
 
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Well, we fans might, but I do not believe the judges score any category in Program Components with the heading "artistry." Food for thought. :)

It's semantics, and as we all know, the judging system is imperfect. 'Artistry' is a catchall term that is inadequate, ephemeral, and indefinite as are many human emotions. The sport is very subjective, but also political. And as a sport it has gone through numerous changes and evolutions that have not adequately been covered or written about in any definitive or exhaustive way (as we might find in some other sports).

Figure skating is a unique sport in which creative performance and music are very important. Yet, the sport began as tracings on the ice without music, jumps or any particular attention to creativity involving telling a story. When skaters began to evolve the sport by exploring movement beyond tracings, in the form of acrobatics, that was frowned upon. Today acrobatics is largely the be-all end-all, with costumes, music and creative expression taking a backseat and at times almost being dismissed as secondary. I think it's partly a result of the sport being run by speed skaters for such a long time.

Even though blade skills are very important and foundational to figure skating, the sport truly does very little to encourage skaters to train and perfect blade/figures fundamentals. It would be like tennis players slacking off practicing their shots, or ballet dancers skipping their daily barre workout.

Aspects of 'artistry,' 'musicality,' 'creativity, and 'performance' are very complicated qualities to discuss coherently and without argument. And yet, there are definite measures of how skilled a skater is in interpreting the music, expressing genuine emotions, displaying a unique style and movement quality on the ice, etc. Some skaters are good in some aspects of the components but not as good in others. Quite often the judging does not accurately reflect varying levels of proficiency in the program components. Partly this has to do with politics and rep-based scoring with an emphasis on technical expertise. Also, there are some skaters who move beautifully but may not necessarily be as masterful in interpreting music and conveying authentic emotion as their scores would suggest.

Therefore, it's clear that the imbalance between how technical ability and performance ability are judged and valued has increased to a greater degree than existed previously. But once again, politics and reputation have always been factors in the scoring. So its important to realize that while PCS are manipulated and lip service is given to how important it is to develop one's 'artistic' side, the overriding problem is a lack of attention paid to the sport's complexities and problems, which are generally swept under the rug. Still, I would acknowledge that even with the huge imbalance between how tech and creative presentation skills are actually valued and scored, there has been huge progress creatively with much more emphasis on skaters using their entire bodies and working with top-notch choreographers to fine-tune their aesthetic side, even if their aesthetics are weak or nonexistent. :D

I think there are so many aspects of figure skating that truly need to be examined and explored and discussed without hype, prejudice, snarking, ubering, and ego-driven, inflamed combative commentary. Such conversations should be happening within the figure skating community as a whole on a number of levels. Utilize the experiences and knowledge of the living legends who still grace this sport. Why not a regular interview show focusing on veterans sharing their reflections and memorable moments,* accompanied by shows that convene a group of people from all parts of the sport engaging in fruitful conversation and constructive debate on hot topics and controversial issues, as well as historical anecdotes and insights? But yeah, there are a mountain of things that are never adequately addressed in the sport of figure skating. OTOH, there are so many ardent and selfless fans who make and have made enormous contributions to the sport and to other fans via blogging, commentary, research, interviews, dedicated sleuthing and sharing of information. They should be continually thanked and commended for their efforts. We all know who they are! And they are many and so dearly appreciated. :)

* Scott Hamilton has contributed to trying to offer something of this nature on his very welcome and delightful IN show. And of course, Nick McCarvel and Jackie Wong provide a great interview, news update and event summarizing service with IceTalk. (Allison Manley and P.J. Kwong have provided us with some archival interview gems as well).

I am going to recheck Dick Button's book to see whether he had anything profound to say about 'artistry.' I remember that in some of his past on-air commentary, Dick always pointed out that a debate between sport and art in figure skating has been a hot topic for a long time, and that it will always be debated. Way back in the 1800s when the 'father of figure skating,' Jackson Haines, began skating to music and using his arms in a graceful manner, his inventiveness led to an epidemic of raised eyebrows, frowning and pearl-clutching. Haines had to flee the states for Europe (Austria) where he was adopted and lionized as a true 'artistic' pioneer on the ice who helped figure skating find its soul.
 
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Interesting the Ito discussion. Even Christopher Dean commented that he felt her artistry was her technical ability.

The problem with defining artistry is that it does come down to perception and how we are individuals view what we are seeing.

Having said that, I would say that for me artistry is something that just works for me. It has to hit an emotional core and I get caught up in the moment. It could be the wink of an eye, a hand movement or a pause in the movement. All the while it works organically with the music or the story the skater is trying to tell.

For example here is T&D doing a program where the first part is without music. It is mesmorising and totally sucks you in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X134rL2NNjM
 
Figure skating is a unique sport in which creative performance and music are very important. Yet, the sport began as tracings on the ice without music, jumps or any particular attention to creativity involving telling a story.

And yet there was some attempt at artistry/creativity on the ice as opposed to in the skater's body in the practice of special figures (scroll down).

A number of years ago at Liberty competition I was struck by the beauty of the patterns drawn on the ice during step sequences by some of the junior men during the warmups when the ice was clean, and even during the actual programs of the first or second skaters to compete after the resurface. (I remember Grant Hochstein was one on of those skaters. Probably Ross Miner as well.)

Can that beauty be considered a kind of part of the artistry?
 
^^ Yes, I agree. I understand what you are talking about. And I thought about trying to convey that when I mentioned tracings on ice, because all those early skaters did have to think about how their bodies were positioned in relation to their foot in the boot tracing patterns on the ice. So that necessity for body awareness is an interesting aspect of how the sport began to evolve creatively and expressively, for example, with Jackson Haines exploring music and graceful arm movements and going beyond the tracings to skate "free" programs in which to express something different than making beautiful figures.

And so, yes, there is the aspect of art & grace being involved very much so in tracing figures, not only in the beauty of special figures, but in the way skaters hold their bodies while making figures. That aspect of graceful movement art (tension vs relaxation and control) evolved as well. It's such a shame that figures began to be seen as less important and too difficult for a television audience to enjoy or understand. Once again, under the tenure of speed skaters, figures were discarded in a way that has made the sport unwittingly schizophrenic -- i.e., like a split personality, or like a heart disconnected from its spirit.

What you mention about impressive patterns appearing on the ice during the course of today's footwork is interesting. However, the skaters in this case are not consciously involved with intentionally making specific patterns unless they happen to play around with seeing what their blades are tracing during choreography sessions when their footwork sequences are created. And sadly these patterns are overlooked/ unseen by the television audience and most of the arena audience too.
 
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Sometimes I find even the way skaters do crossovers in time to the music to be art.

Yes, that's what Toller Cranston, John Curry, John Misha Petkevich, and Canada's Dennis Coi (who I just recently learned about in one of @N_Halifax's Skateguard blogs) and many others were doing with crossovers. I'm not sure that many of today's skaters consciously think about utilizing crossovers in a holistic way as part of expressing the music unless it's discussed with them by skilled choreographers. I believe the importance of using crossovers to express musical passages is understood to a degree by skaters like Jason Brown, Patrick Chan, Jeremy Abbott, certainly Gary Beacom, et al.


After reviewing some posts, I think that some of us are confusing our emotional perceptions (and subjectivity) with definitions of art. There will always be variant reactions and that is usually based on our own personal experience, backgrounds and knowledge of the sport. For example, what our eyes see and what our hearts respond to, does not mean that what we can't see or happen to miss or don't respond to as readily isn't worthy creative expression.

But then again, with a basic understanding of movement and performance qualities and vocabularies, it is possible to develop a trained eye for distinguishing levels of 'artistic' performance ability among skaters (without subjective preference and reputation politics). Obviously some skaters may possess similar levels of ability but with uniquely different styles and approaches, and that is where subjectivity enters the picture, IMHO: e.g., Toller Cranston vs John Curry; Brian Orser vs Brian Boitano; Johnny Weir* vs Stephane Lambiel vs Jeffrey Buttle*; Patrick Chan vs Dai Takahashi vs Jeremy Abbott; Adam Rippon vs Jason Brown vs Alexander Johnson; Alissa Czisny vs Carolina Kostner vs Mao Asada; Virtue/Moir vs Davis/White; Torvill/Dean vs Klimova/Ponomarenko vs Usova Zhulin, et al.

ETA:
* At 2008 Worlds, both Jeffrey Buttle and Johnny Weir were superlative in the sp, so which one landed in first place after that portion of the competition could have gone either way. Since Weir was less popular (even with his own federation), it was easier for the judges to go with Jeff in the sp. Of course Jeff most definitely earned the overall championship win with a clean and more consistent fp.
 
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Moves in general, gesture, hands, arm movements. But most of the time these things lose their significance if I don't see passion, emotions, real expression. ( I became a fan of Hanyu in his first R&J program. His passion, anger hooked me so much!) Without these thing the skatings are very nice slipping for me.
What is "real expression" for you - is it acting (even if the word "real" suggests otherwise), or do natural emotions that the skater feels from skating to the particular music also count?

-Diversity. I like to see love, fun, anger, passion, playfulness, tragic, story telling, etc from one skater. Who makes one type of programs even in exhibitions I don't think he has the biggest artistry. For example Johnny had some very suprising programs but Lambiel is always the same. But I know this is very subjective..
For me the art is very different in general and in FS, too.
I think that to be able to show absolutely all of those those emotions and things that you name a skater has to also be a good actor (especially to be able to tell a story) - even though beside facial expressions there are other means and ways how to deliver meanings and emotions. In my opinion, while it is a form of artistry in figure skating and certainly interesting and enjoyable, a figure skater does not have to be a particularly good actor to be considered artistic as long as they are capable of expressing nuances of their music and/or delivering the meaning of that music/program in those other ways (most likely that would be with movement and/or bladework).

As for Lambiel, I know your opinion about him, and I will always disagree. The thing is, he is not a very good actor - he can actually act funny, but, when he tries to act something dramatic, it usually looks over the top and artificial. Come to think of it, his "funny" acting is also slightly over the top, but that can work in comedy. Thankfully, in most of his programs he does not really try to act with his face. The exceptions are at shows like 'Intimissimi on Ice' where he has to act a role - and there too he does better in the more "serious" and lyrical, but not overly dramatic parts. Maybe this lack of good acting abilities is one of the reasons for your opinion about him.

Still, Lambiel often shows natural passion and intensity, as well as playful charm, and he is able to express the nuances of very different styles of music. Also, I would certainly say that from your list he has shown love, fun, passion, playfulness and even tragedy in his programs (the character in his 'La Valse' program, or, rather, it's version shown at Fantasy on Ice last year, died at the end, so that's tragedy). He has had some dramatic programs too, and even a few with some storytelling. Of course, he is not exactly a comic, and he would never skate a program like 'Sex Bomb', but he has had a few programs with comic moments. And the choreography for most of these programs used to differ quite a lot. I think one of the reasons why his programs look more "sameish" lately in terms of the "choreographic vocabulary" is that he simply devotes much less time to choreographing them due to his busyness with other things. But, yes, I disagree about all of Lambiel's programs being/looking the same. Anyway, I know that we will never agree on this as you simply see things differently from me, so I will end this slightly off-topic rant about Lambiel now.
 

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