What is artistry?

[gkelly]

We've had this discussion before, but not in its own thread recently.

What exactly do we mean when we say a skater is artistic or "has artistry"?

It's silly to argue over who's more artistic than whom if we're not all talking about the same thing.

If a skater is great at some or all of the criteria under the IJS Performance or Composition or Interpretation components but seriously lacking in the other of those components, can they still be artistic?

Which criteria are most important to you when it comes to determining artistry?

Which do you recognize as valid components of artistry but don't care as much about as the previous?

Which to you seem irrelevant to artistry even if they may demonstrate good technical skill that should be rewarded in eligible competition for that reason?

 

[sap5]

Can this ever really be defined? Can't one man's trash be another person's art? Is it possible for everyone to talk about the same thing?

When I googled "what is artistry?" I found this:
noun
noun: artistry
creative skill or ability.
synonyms: creative skill, creativity, art, skill, talent, genius, brilliance, flair, proficiency, virtuosity, finesse, style;
craftsmanship, workmanship

When I googled "what is art?" this defn seemed most relevant:
noun
the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

 

[Karpenko]

You feel the music when you watch them. There are nuances and emotions from the music expressed, and not just for the sake of getting points. There's a story being told and aesthetically pleasing movements. Everything has a purpose and a musical understanding behind it.

For technical people who love tricks, in simple terms - it's what the program looks and feels like without any quads or tricks. It's the program without any gymnastics type of scoring, there's actual real emotional artistry there and not "gymnastics artistry".

That's why Jason Brown and Papadakis & Cizeron are absolutely fabulous.

 

[sap5]

You feel the music when you watch them. There are nuances and emotions from the music expressed, and not just for the sake of getting points. There's a story being told and aesthetically pleasing movements. Everything has a purpose and a musical understanding behind it.

That's why Jason Brown and Papadakis & Cizeron are absolutely fabulous.

What about the skaters you find aesthetically unpleasing, but others find pleasing?

 

[Karpenko]

What about grasping the big picture of my post before trying to put me in my place? You sure couldn't wait! Must've been because I used the P/C word.

 

[sap5]

What about grasping the big picture of my post before trying to put me in my place?

Not trying to put you in your place. I'm raising one of the points that's always raised when there are discussions of "what is artistic?".

 

[Karpenko]

And I explained my view of it.

 

[sap5]

What's the P/C word?

 

[gkelly]

Personally, I think there are different kinds of artistry. Even if I have some forms that turn me on more than others, I try to appreciate each on its own merits.

Suppose:

Skater A is great at creating a clear story or concept through the overall program construction, carefully choreographed down to the eighth-note level in the step sequence and with clever thematic moves and shapes, even facial expressions, throughout the program. Very specific and creative, and clearly choreographed (by Skater A him/herself) not spontaneous.

Skater B has worked hard at developing beautiful body line and precise movement quality: almost any photo/screen shot you could take of the program would show beautiful positions, and big moves like jumps or spirals or spread eagles are well placed to the music. But introverted and not especially nuanced in the musical interpretation.

Skater C is very charismatic and very musical, interacting with the audience and interacting with the music on a deep rhythmic and emotional level, often driven by the emotions of the moment so the moves may be noticeably different in each performance as the skater expresses what s/he feels about that music at that very moment. Great at dancy programs.

Skater D is great at acting out characters, different for each program, usually extroverted but can focus inward when the music choice demands. Body line and movement can be a bit loose.

Skater E is introverted and very emotionally connected to the musical mood -- but not so much to the beat-to-beat musical phrasing. Best at lyrical/dramatic romantic themes, not so much with dance rhythms.

Skater F is naturally very sexy and knows it, loves the audience and loves to flirt and show off his/her assets.

Skater G likes to play around with edge variations and spin positions and unusual non-listed jumps and other transitions, combining moves in unexpected ways and coming up with some brand new moves never seen before. The music choices support the playfulness but don't drive the program construction.

Etc.

So if music is most important to you, you'd probably have different favorites than if you're most interested in audience connection or in visual beauty or in personal creativity, etc.

Does that mean that a skater who hits someone else's sweet spot but not yours is necessarily "less artistic"?

Also, if there are skaters who fall into the same general category of strengths and weaknesses, a skater who is very strong at his/her strengths may come across as more artistic (at least to those who prefer those particular strengths) than one who is generally just pretty good at most areas.

And similarly a skater who is notably weak in areas that are most important to you personally may come across as less artistic even if they're strong in areas you care less about.

 

[Karpenko]

Doesn't music matter the most when it comes to artistry though? It's what all of the artistic criteria stems from. Regardless of what you prefer, it's not artistry unless there some sort of correlation with the music or idea being conveyed IMO. Otherwise it's just gymnastics. There has to be something that makes sense with the music there.

I think that choreography is more subjective than "artistry".

 

[Karpenko]

What's the P/C word?

Please just ignore my posts, we come from two different worlds. I'd rather just not discuss skating with you.

 

[floskate]

I think artistry can be viewed in many different guises. I've said it before that Midori Ito's artistry was her technical virtuosity which ties in with the definition above. Her skating, her incredible energy and speed, her jumps and her wonderful personality combined to provide an exhilarating experience for watchers which was very unique to her. I'm sure there are many skaters who fans could argue created similar effects for them and that is their artistry and that's fine.

But I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that when most people think of the word 'artistry' in relation to figure skating then the relationship with and interpretation of the music comes to mind. And as far as I'm concerned this is where musicality comes in to play. There are scores of skaters who have been lauded for their 'artistry' over the years (particularly here at FSU ) yet - to my mind at least - were just very good skaters who were able to emote and skate pretty.....or they were incredibly well packaged with clever choreo. But they aren't listening. The music isn't coming from within. It's the same for dancers. Many have a whole bag of tricks and beautiful lines with incredible facility....but they don't embody the music. Fonteyn was an artist. She was truly a vessel for the music she danced with (note I'm not using the word 'to'), despite her physical deficiencies compared to today's standards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that if this is the model that your 'artistry' is built upon then you have to have musicality. Janet Lynn stands out as a supreme example of a skater who became one with her music. But she had the freedom within her era to indulge in choreography that had motifs and structure, rather than today's efforts where the choreo has to be sacrificed to a (too) large degree to get the jumps done.

But then I agree with gkelly regarding skaters who are gifted at acting and character work. While it might not be artistry in the sense I just outlined, it is still artistic in and of itself. Because one can invest emotionally in the work being presented.

Such an interesting subject. Thanks for starting the thread @gkelly

 

[bardtoob]

To me ... Artistry in skating is when a skater inspires, communicates, or elicits a thought(s) or feeling(s) beyond the sum of the parts of the program.

And with this definition, even a skater like Midori Ito is artistic because she made you feel humanity is capable of more than one would expect or one thought was possible. Yet, skaters like Michelle Kwan, John Curry, Janet Lynn, Johnny Weir, Patrick Chan ... Also easily fit this definition.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Can this ever really be defined? Can't one man's trash be another person's art? Is it possible for everyone to talk about the same thing?

When I googled "what is artistry?" I found this:
noun
noun: artistry
creative skill or ability.
synonyms: creative skill, creativity, art, skill, talent, genius, brilliance, flair, proficiency, virtuosity, finesse, style;
craftsmanship, workmanship

When I googled "what is art?" this defn seemed most relevant:
noun
the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

Love the clarity of the definitions.
One more thing I would include in artistry is that magnetic presence on the ice. This I think you are born with. Jason has it. Ashley has it. Adam has it. Medvedeva doesn't have it (IMO). V/M have it in spades.

I was at Stars on Ice, and surprised to find who my eye was drawn to (Adam in particular) in the group numbers. Some skaters take the ice and seem to have an extra light showing on them.

Artistry is definitely intangible and subjective. But oh so gorgeous.

 

[Spun Silver]

I think of one of Janet Lynn's favorite words, freedom, in connection with artistry -- when a skater has a secure technical foundation (even if not necessarily the hardest jumps) and can rise above it to dance on the ice and interpret the music. They seem free, as if they are doing what they want to do rather than what the rules force them to do.

Dai, Mao and Carolina are supreme recent examples. Midori is one of my all-time favorite skaters because of her technical gifts and her infinite charm and graciousness. Her smile warmed the world's collective heart. But I am not quite convinced by floskate that she was a great artist. I have to think more about that one.

 

[floskate]

I think of one of Janet Lynn's favorite words, freedom, in connection with artistry -- when a skater has a secure technical foundation (even if not necessarily the hardest jumps) and can rise above it to dance on the ice and interpret the music. They seem free, as if they are doing what they want to do rather than what the rules force them to do.

Dai, Mao and Carolina are supreme recent examples. Midori is one of my all-time favorite skaters because of her technical gifts and her infinite charm and graciousness. Her smiile warmed the world's collective heart. But I am not quite convinced by floskate that she was a great artist. I have to think more about that one.

I didn't say Midori was a great artist. Perhaps you have misunderstood my post. What I DID say was that her unique abilities contributed to an aura when she performed which could be regarded as artistry of her own. She was a virtuoso and @sap5's initial post in this thread shows virtuosity as being a definition of artistry.

 

[Spun Silver]

^'I know you didnt use the term great. It is just a little odd to think of one of the greatest skaters ever as being an artist but only on an "average" or "good" level. You didnt say those things either but since people do compare artistry, it is fair to ask, if Midori was an artist, was she an average, good or great one. At the moment I would say she was superlative for her technique and her radiant personality/charisma. I would just leave her out of the artistry conversation. JMO.

 

[floskate]

^'I know you didnt use the term great. It is just a little odd to think of one of the greatest skaters ever as being an artist but only on an "average" or "good" level. You didnt say those things either but since people do compare artistry, it is fair to ask, if Midori was an artist, was she an average, good or great one. At the moment I would say she was superlative for her technique and her radiant personality/charisma. I would just leave her out of the artistry conversation. JMO.

But what you're doing is presenting a narrow view of what artistry means to you and struggling to make Midori's skating fit to your own criteria. What I'm saying is that actually artistry can be quantified in different ways. Midori was never an 'artist' in the sense that you are alluding to, but she did have her own brand of 'artistry' due to her virtuosity and star quality.

 

[Spun Silver]

@floskate, we are all presenting our views here. You think mine are too narrow. I think you are stretching the definition of artistry too broadly to include a skater who is great for other reasons. We disagree. No need to get all worked up about it IMO. She's still one of my all-time favorites.

 

[floskate]

@floskate, we are all presenting our views here. You think mine are too narrow. I think you are stretching the definition of artistry too broadly to include a skater who is great for other reasons. We disagree. No need to get all worked up about it IMO. She's still one of my all-time favorites.

Don't worry I'm not worked up. What I'm struggling to understand is your dismissal of Ito who I'm sure you would define as virtuosic in her abilities yet would seemingly ignore the fact that virtuosity is one of the definitions of artistry. That and the fact that you credited me with calling Ito a great artist, which I clearly did not

 

[bardtoob]

All I know is that when I watch Midori Ito's 1988 Olympic LP I feel like I am watching "The Winter Olympics", and not just any competition that happens to be called the Winter Olympics. She was "Faster, Higher, Stronger".

 

[gkelly]

Doesn't music matter the most when it comes to artistry though?

To you, clearly. Others may have different priorities.

It's what all of the artistic criteria stems from.

In the Program Component definitions, you mean?
(Or do you mean that all art, including literature, painting, etc., are all about music??)

Performance
Involvement of the Skater/Pair/Couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they
deliver the intent of the music and composition.
*Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement and projection
*Carriage & Clarity of movement
*Variety and contrast of movements and energy
*Individuality / personality
*Unison and "oneness" (PS, ID)
*Spatial awareness between partners

Yes, all these criteria are meant to be demonstrated while delivering the intent of the music (and the composition; see next section), but they don't mention music specifically in the individual bullet points. Is it possible to demonstrate any or all of those criteria with no music playing, or with a generic relationship between the mood of the music and the mood of the performance? I believe the answer to that question is "Yes."

If you can watch a practice session or warmup while no music is playing and single out one or more skaters/teams as artistic in the sense of showing great carriage & clarity or individuality/personality or unison, then doesn't that argue that parts of their artistry are not directly related to music?

And what about someone who, e.g., shows a great emotional connection to the emotion of the music -- dramatic or romantic or lighthearted movement and facial expression to dramatic or romantic or lighthearted music -- but the movements don't actually match the rhythm and the skaters would get dinged for being off time by ice dance judges? But they could still be rewarded for meeting that first Performance bullet point especially well. Is that not artistic?

Composition
An intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the
principles of musical phrase, space, pattern, and structure
*Purpose (idea, concept, vision, mood)
*Pattern / ice coverage
*Phrase and form (movements & parts of the program to match the musical phrasing)
*Originality of the composition

Looks like music is relevant to 1/4 to 1/2 of these criteria and the other criteria can be easily fulfilled with no music or background music.

"Ice coverage" in the sense of skating fast on deep edges might not be considered an "artistic" criterion, but laying out the pattern and elements of the program in a way that uses the ice surface as a canvas to create a visually satisfying pattern across the time of the program surely is.

Interpretation
The personal, creative, and genuine translation of the rhythm, character
and content of music to movement on ice.
*Movement and steps in time to the music (Timing)
*Expression of the music's character/feeling and rhythm, when clearly identifiable
*Use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music
*Relationship between the skaters reflecting the character and rhythm of the music (PS, ID)
*Skating primarily to the rhythmic beat for the Short Dance and keeping a good balance between skating to the beat and melody in the Free Dance (ID)

This component is all about the music. But it's only one of the three "artistic" components.

 

[Spun Silver]

Don't worry I'm not worked up. What I'm struggling to understand is your dismissal of Ito who I'm sure you would define as virtuosic in her abilities yet would seemingly ignore the fact that virtuosity is one of the definitions of artistry. That and the fact that you credited me with calling Ito a great artist, which I clearly did not

OK, now you are misinterpreting me. I would never dismiss Midori. For the third time, she is one of my all time favorites!! How do you turn that into dismissal? And I don't accept the definition of virtuosity as artistry. The musical world is crammed full of virtuosi who are sorely lacking in artistry. Not that that is how I would or did describe Midori. I have already described her above so I am not going to keep repeating myself.

I have already acknowledged that you did not use the term "great artist" and explained my reasoning so I am not sure why you are harping on that.

I have great respect for you, @floskate, but I am not enjoying the tone of your disagreement with me, so I will withdraw and leave the field to you.

 

[bardtoob]

@Spun Silver and @floskate are arguing because they can't agree on the intangible quality of Midori Ito.

. . . And for that, I declare myself the winner

. . . And I love and respect all that both of you contribute

 

[gkelly]

Is it possible to demonstrate any or all of those criteria with no music playing, or with a generic relationship between the mood of the music and the mood of the performance? I believe the answer to that question is "Yes."

If you can watch a practice session or warmup while no music is playing and single out one or more skaters/teams as artistic in the sense of showing great carriage & clarity or individuality/personality or unison, then doesn't that argue that parts of their artistry are not directly related to music?

Another example:

At local competitions, I often see (and have competed in) "Compulsory Moves" events at lower levels that serve a similar purpose to Short Programs. There are required elements, and skaters put together a short program linking these elements together.

Usually they use only half the ice surface so that two different events can take place at the same time on opposite ends of the ice. For that reason, they do not use any music.

In the US usually these events are scored with one mark only under 6.0. Or they could be scored with TES only under IJS.

But wouldn't it be possible for one or more of the competitors to stand out as relatively artistic on the strength of any or all of the skills listed under the Performance and Composition components?

"Phrase and form (movements & parts of the program to match the musical phrasing)" would be least applicable, but it's certainly possible for a skater to show good phrasing of the movement in silence vs. another skater struggling to control the timing of everything she does.

 

[sap5]

Another example:

At local competitions, I often see (and have competed in) "Compulsory Moves" events at lower levels that serve a similar purpose to Short Programs. There are required elements, and skaters put together a short program linking these elements together.

Usually they use only half the ice surface so that two different events can take place at the same time on opposite ends of the ice. For that reason, they do not use any music.

In the US usually these events are scored with one mark only under 6.0. Or they could be scored with TES only under IJS.

But wouldn't it be possible for one or more of the competitors to stand out as relatively artistic on the strength of any or all of the skills listed under the Performance and Composition components?

"Phrase and form (movements & parts of the program to match the musical phrasing)" would be least applicable, but it's certainly possible for a skater to show good phrasing of the movement in silence vs. another skater struggling to control the timing of everything she does.

For me, artistry would be purposeful movement. The idea that a skater has thought of the moves he/she wants to make, and is controlling the muscles, expression, etc., to execute the thought behind the movement. While this usually refers to the skating between elements, I think we've all seen elements (jumps, lifts, etc.) executed beautifully because every aspect of the element was thought out and executed as intended. I may not always like the moves being executed (or find them aesthetically pleasing) but I can certainly recognize when a skater has put the effort to create a definite movement and executed that well. That intention, creation, and execution, for me, is art.

 

[skateboy]

Okay, my two cents...

As a professional musician for my entire life, I've learned that artistry (and musicality) is one of those topics that is constantly argued and never, ever agreed upon.

Most professional musicians (hopefully all) have learned what I refer to as the "mechanics of musicality," if you will: how to shape musical lines, how to accent notes, to taper phrase endings, how to color and nuance, etc. And yet, a performer may do all of these things and still leave certain listeners cold, while others marvel and revel in the experience. Other performers may be rough around the edges, in terms of polish, but still move an audience to tears.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that artistry cannot be adequately defined. The way I look at it is this: if you observe a performer (musician, dancer, skater, gymnast, etc.) and have been genuinely moved in some way, then YOU have had an artistic experience, which is intimately personal and defies scrutinous definition.

 

[chapis]

I think it is better dont mention names of figure skaters in this topic, if you dont want to enter to an endless argument.

 

[Spun Silver]

@Spun Silver and @floskate are arguing because they can't agree on the intangible quality of Midori Ito.

. . . And for that, I declare myself the winner

. . . And I love and respect all that both of you contribute

Thank you! I accept your arbitration.

 

[Bellanca]

Personally, I think there are different kinds of artistry. Even if I have some forms that turn me on more than others, I try to appreciate each on its own merits.

Ditto. I absolutely agree with this, and I always think of Elvis Stojko when someone comments about a skater using or presenting a different kind of artistry, etc. As a matter-of-fact, I believe Elvis said something similar re this very topic.

A skater can be a technical guru and introduce artistry into their programs, but it may not necessarily be the kind of art that will make fans swoon.