What is a "better skater"?

[gkelly]

Without focusing on specific individuals, I'm curious what people mean when they say one skater is better than another.

When it's phrased as "better skater" my mind always goes to actual skating skills. But even if skating skill is (debatably) the most important determinant of relative skill, being "better" than another in competition involves more skills than just edges on ice.

So if you're going to ask or answer that question about two or more skaters in general, what criteria do you use to decide?

Would it be the same answer if you're looking at bodies of work vs. one head-to-head competition?

 

[gk_891]

My mind always goes to skating skills as well. For example, I've often thought of Sasha Cohen as an interesting performer but not a great skater. But I guess the options are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Tough one.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Good questions. For me personally, I am assessing the all around/overall skill set when deciding who I think the best skater/team is. If I think someone has the best skating "skills", then that is what I say. I think Patrick Chan has the best skating skills in the world right now, but I cannot claim he is the best overall "skater" right now.

 

[gkelly]

I suppose one could also draw a distinction between the best overall package of skills that meet the current rules and are likely to deserve the highest scores, vs. the best overall package of skills that match our personal priorities for what makes "good skating."

 

[kittysk8ts]

I suppose one could also draw a distinction between the best overall package of skills that meet the current rules and are likely to deserve the highest scores, vs. the best overall package of skills that match our personal priorities for what makes "good skating."

Absolutely. And in comes the subjectivity, and rightly so.

 

[clairecloutier]

To me, it means who has the best overall package of technical/performance/skating skills.

 

[Spun Silver]

Usually when I hear the phrase "better skater" (not "best skater") I take it to refer to skating skills.

I'm going to avoid the "best" question. There will never be agreement even on a definition.

 

[Yazmeen]

I chose the best combo of technical and performance skills.
However, for many fans, I really think it comes down to "who I like best," because they'll trumpet and hold up all the good skills the skater has and massively overlook any shortcomings or blame outside influences if they don't do as well as hoped (eg, my skater was treated "unfairly" by the judges or their federation).

 

[briancoogaert]

Of course the Overall Package, but the first thing I watch is Skating Skills. Glide, flow, legs, jumping technique, spins...

 

[Nomad]

To me, it means who has the best overall package of technical/performance/skating skills.

This. Performance ability often tips the scales for me. I almost always prefer the skater who enjoys putting on a show.

 

[bardtoob]

Overall package with NO MAJOR DEFICITS.

 

[Roux]

If I'm trying to be objective, I would lean heavily on competitive results (and the consistency thereof). I suppose I would use that as a shortcut/crutch -- although I have certainly seen a few debates on competition results! But I don't have the technical knowledge to justify a significantly different opinion. I would likely give somewhat more weight to the performance aspect. I can assume a more versatile program also displays a more versatile skillset, right?

... So I think an objective "better skater" has to be well-rounded. (As @bardtoob just beat me to saying, quite succinctly -- I take way too long to think & write, guys.) And consistency... well, I suppose it's possible to be a "better skater" without consistency, but consistency is how you prove those skills. So... you can't objectively be called a better skater until you achieve some consistency?

Now, if I specify that "I think X is better than Y," that's almost purely performance-based. Consistency is still important, too. And I don't care what the jumps are so much as their cleanliness -- although sometimes I like to see impressive saves

 

[skateboy]

Difficult to answer.

Sure, an elite skater is better than a juvenile skater. I doubt anyone would deny that. Comparing elite skaters is not easy, but also concerns the discipline.

For me, dance is all about edges, footwork, carriage, ice coverage and more. For me, the Shibs, as a team, are better skaters than P/C for those reasons. But I understand why many prefer P/C, they can create a certain magic.

Singles: jumps and spins obviously have to count for a lot... along with skating skills. To me, competitive results are not necessarily the measure of a superior/inferior skater. I never felt Katarina Witt was "the best" skater of her era(s)... but she managed to win almost all the time. Who do I think was better? Caryn Kadavy, Elizabeth Manley, Midori Ito (sans figures)... even Debi Thomas and Jill Trenary. And for me, Tonya Harding was a far better skater than Jill, Kristi or Nancy. But the others made the most of what they had with more polished packaging and presentation.

Pairs: unison, unison, unison... and difficulty.

 

[aftershocks]

Those skaters who have been able by force of will, hard work and providence to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Because everyone fails, eh! It's how you learn from failure and apply what you learn that counts.

It's not enough to have talent. Skaters must learn or be fortunate to have the gift of knowing how to maximize their talent and not waste it. They need to have mentors and coaches as well as financial support and political backing. Without luck in the mix, all bets are off.

Better in various categories doesn't always signify best overall. There are too many variables at play.

Off the top of my head, Janet Lynn always comes to mind. But Janet clearly had weaknesses she was unable to overcome to win Olympic gold, no? But that's not what most fans think of when we hear her name, right? Personally, I think of joy, optimism, and of exquisite, transcendent skating when I think of Janet Lynn. As we know by now, winning OGM is not the ultimate measure of the best or greatest figure skaters.

 

[bardtoob]

Off the top of my head, Janet Lynn always comes to mind. But Janet clearly had weaknesses she was unable to overcome to win Olympic gold, no? But that's not what most fans think of when we hear her name, right

Janet Lynn Vs Trixie Schuba did come to mind when I saw Cohen Vs Slutskaya. However, I vanquished the thought because Janet was good at Freeskating (athletic and artistic skating movement) while Schuba was good at Compulsory Figures (carving pictures into the ice), two different disciplines, but both Sasha and Irina were good at Freeskating.

However, it does seem Irina's strength was her athleticism while Sasha's strength was artistry, and neither were the most balanced despite being championship grade skaters.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yes, @bardtoob. There are just too many factors involved, and the discussion is individual based on who we are discussing. I'm sure that's why the popular pick in this poll is #5: "Who has the best overall package..." Those who manage to combine a high level of technical/athletic skills with advanced artistic sensibilities are to me the most compelling skaters to watch. The thing about that though is some skaters are precocious, like Johnny Weir, in having technical & artistic skills at an early age, while for others, it takes some time to develop the artistic side and as well to further refine & improve the technical side. What also complicates this is the fact that there are different levels of ability that skaters possess over the course of their careers, in a number of different categories. Some skaters are able to compensate for minor weaknesses through the strength of their best talents.

You are right about Lynn and Schuba. Janet Lynn wasn't horrible at figures, she just wasn't a wizard at them like Trixi Schuba (a compulsory figures genius). Having athetic talent and a basic, well taught foundation in figures is what allowed Janet Lynn to fully develop her transcendent performance abilities.

 

[Bellanca]

Thank you for starting this particular thread @gkelly. The other threads (with all due respect) addressing this topic, have quickly become a popularity contest with a strong desire to dig in one's heels for a favorite or preferred skater. Not that there is anything wrong with this, only that it is predictable.

I try to take into consideration the complete package of a skater's skills, and not get too hung up on one or two things (Artistic vs. Technical), etc., but rather a nice balance of both. Nerves, however, can derail everything!

If only nerves could be kept in check, but then, that is an essential part of the competition, controlling one’s nerves, having nerves of steel, or ‘bringing it’ when it counts the most.

I once recall Dick Button commenting about nerves. He had been speaking of Alissa Czisny, and what it could mean for her competitive career if only she could control her nerves. Dick said, at the time, ‘she would be UN-BEAT-ABLE!’

If only…

 

[lauravvv]

Of course the Overall Package, but the first thing I watch is Skating Skills. Glide, flow, legs, jumping technique, spins...

Yes, jumping technique and spins are important, but they are really not a part of skating skills.

 

[aftershocks]

Exactly @Weve. That's what I was going to elaborate on further. The competitive aspect, and being able to manage nerves successfully. Another very important variable. For example, in the case of Johnny Weir, he unfortunately came up against a system that he butted heads with and rebelled against (which was a huge factor in his less than stellar international championship success. TPTB ultimately never viewed him favorably for a variety of reasons, despite his humongous talent). The force of Johnny's talent is what enabled him to achieve the success he did accomplish, but there's no doubt he should have at the very least been able to win multiple World championships.

Without Johnny buckling down and working hard through his own hunger and desire, TPTB were more than willing to see him go by the wayside. Even despite his rare precocity, since Johnny began skating at a later age than usual, he had some problems with the development of his competitive skills (which reared its ugly head most notably during 2000 U.S. Nationals junior men's fp, 2003 U.S. Nationals senior men's fp which was complicated by being injured after his blade caught in the boards, and famously 2006 Olympics men's fp). Overall, Johnny made some questionable career decisions and he didn't always fully apply himself, but his talent was phenomenal athletically/ technically and performance-wise. If Johnny had focused on training quads religiously with a good teacher, he could have mastered quads easily earlier in his career. Quads were just not being given the points value they later received, which made quads negligible for Johnny when he was on the rise. Plus, Johnny himself has admitted that he did not have the fierce drive that epitomizes one of the greatest skaters of his and several generations: Evgeny Plushenko.

Plushy is another case entirely. I believe Plushy had amazing technical/athletic and performance qualities, along with immeasurable hunger and drive. But Plushy focused more on the technical side ultimately to the detriment of working harder on his skating skills, transitions, and interpretive strengths. That's not to say Plushy wasn't a charismatic and compelling performer. He definitely was, but he could have further refined and enhanced the skating skills and artistic side of his skating. Plushy made some attempts to pay more attention to performance quality, particularly with the advent of Johnny's amazing grace, rare posture, and fluid, effortless style of skating. But it's clear that Plushenko's mental toughness and technical strengths were his greatest assets largely because he placed more value (as does the sport) on the technical side.

More skater assessments to come.

 

[briancoogaert]

Yes, jumping technique and spins are important, but they are really not a part of skating skills.

Absolutely. Skating Skills is the most important to me.
Then, Jumping Technique and Spin Technique. What I wanted to say is that I prefer beautiful double/triple jumps to weird triples/quads !

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yes, I think that a greater focus on skaters being trained to develop better blade skills/ skating skills should be a high priority. I can't understand why TPTB don't seem to recognize that Patrick Chan is a walking advertisement for bringing figures practice to the fore. The sport is hung up on placing too much importance on acrobatic jumping. As if it's not a sport unless they cram mucho multiple revolutions and OTT tech content into already tech heavy competitive programs.

Some more skater assessments triggered by @gkelly's poll and @Weve3's comments:
In the case of Jeremy Abbott, he's one of the finest artists on ice the sport has ever seen. Jeremy is a very well-rounded skater who could do it all on competition ice, despite being a relatively late bloomer. He had to work harder on fully developing his technical side, but there's no question he excelled at both technical and artistic skills. One of Jeremy's biggest problems, was the stumbling blocks he faced in overcoming competitive weaknesses on some crucial occasions, which IMO he struggled with mostly due to his thought processes. Seemingly, Jeremy may have been thinking too much at times, instead of allowing muscle memory to take over and fully believing in his abilities. In some cases, he perhaps suffered from strategic miscues involving jump layout, and also physical setbacks that weakened his competitive belief.

Jason Brown is another amazingly well-rounded skater with good technical ability and phenomenal artistic and interpretive skills. Yet, Jason is also a consistent and fiercely strong competitor. The 'tough competitor' side of his skating is sometimes overlooked because of his loosey-goosey personality off-the-ice. Jason is a gamer on the ice, make no mistake. When he's healthy and at full-strength, he's exceedingly consistent and enormously competitive. Suffice to say that his artistic strengths are huge, but he's also technically and athletically strong. It's just that his physicality and body structure appear to make it more difficult for him to achieve the spring, height, and quick rotations needed to master the multiple revolutions demanded these days to reach the major international podiums. However, Jason is nothing if not determined. He will give it his all and he will do his absolute best to try and master quads, just as he did the 3-axel.

Nathan Chen is above all, mentally strong and technically brilliant (backed-up by an accomplished coach who knows how to teach technical skills, as well as mental and strategic skills). Nathan doesn't really need to be taught the mental part though. He's as tough as they come mentally. Nathan is also underestimated in terms of his artistic sensibilities and performance quality, which are still maturing. But he's got both. He definitely has areas of his skating which need further developing and fine-tuning, but he's one of the more well-rounded skaters on the rise today. If Nathan had ever been seriously trained in compulsory figures, whoa, watch out!

Which brings to mind once again, the singular skating skills maestro: Patrick Chan. Bar none, the best ever in terms of combining skating skills with technical/athletic strengths. Patrick is a good performer too, but he has had to work harder on fully developing his artistic sensibilities, and interpretive movement qualities. I give Patrick huge credit for focusing intensively on the artistic aspects of his skating. He is a good competitor when he's on and in the zone. He has a full measure of self-belief and confidence, but in the heat of the most difficult competitive moments of his career, he has faltered. After taking time off post 2014-Olympics, he has needed to shore up and further hone his technical strengths in light of the increasing importance of multiple quads (which ironically he spearheaded in 2011). However, his heart doesn't seem to be into making the necessary sacrifices to go gung-ho on the technical side at this stage of his career. Patrick's dilemma highlights the difficulty of fully mastering both artistic and technical bravura skills in this era of overemphasis on quad revolutions.

 

[MsZem]

To me, "better skater" suggests strong skating skills and technique on the elements. However, better skaters don't necessarily produce better skating - the latter to me also includes musicality and performance ability. A good example of this distinction is 2012 Worlds, where it can be argued that Patrick Chan was the better pure skater, while Daisuke Takahashi produced better skating. I'd throw in "better competitor" - most obviously, Plushenko - to cover the mental side, consistency and competitive results.

 

[Winnipeg]

The winner

 

[AxelAnnie]

Thanks for the great question. I keep seeing the thread "who is the better skater Kwan or Cohen" and I think that any question like that is impossible to answer. I suppose the better skater is the one with the most medals. It is certainly that way in most other sports.........the guy (team) with the most points wins.

Skating is just so different. I think one would have to evaluate each of the criteria individually and apply it to each skater....skating skills, presentation, jumps.

In Ladies, for example, I think you would have to say Medvedeva is the best skater..........but she is not the best at all the different categories. Michelle.......same thing.........but she was not the best in each individual aspect.

So, I guess the best skater is the one who can lay it down on competition day. Over and Over and Over.

 

[Meoima]

Someone who has both quality and quantity.

 

[gkelly]

Does it make sense to say A was the best skater, but B was the best jumper/best athlete, C the best performer, D the best competitor (in which case, D probably won most often)?

 

[DimaToe]

Whoever makes the most of those 2m50sec or that 4 minute program. I have skaters that I enjoy to watch more then others and appreciate things like nice lines and proper use of arms. But whoever does enough of everything to convince that panel of judges to Crown them the champion is the better skater in my opinion even if they have helicopter arms or they lack other qualities that I enjoy watching.

 

[skateboy]

I thik Evan Lysacek is another good example. He won his fair share of titles... and kudos to him for that... but I think most would agree that many of his competitors were better skaters: Dai, Stephane, Oda, Plush, Weir, Patrick... just sayin'.

 

[aftershocks]

Speaking of Janet Lynn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQAoTFdrfWs&app=desktop Skating to Shaft
Nice camera montage graphics at the end too! Much better than those annoying overhead cam shots we are pestered with these days...

Thanks @floskate

 

[Winnipeg]

The winner