What Do Fans Want?

[overedge]

This week I attended a seminar on engaging with fans, retaining them, and (maybe most importantly) getting them to spend their money on "product". It was focused on the music industry but I thought that some of it was quite relevant to sports as well.

One of the panelists presented a survey that their organization had done of "core fans" - regular event attenders and followers of performers on social media etc. The survey listed several kinds of incentives and asked the fans to rate the incentives from most to least attractive, as in which would make them most likely to spend money on getting that incentive. These were the overall rankings:

• early access to products (like new music)
• products released exclusively to fans
• exclusive access to tickets
• exclusive merchandise
• "behind the scenes" content
• access to artists (e.g. meet and greets)
• access to online communities

Obviously some of these are not relevant to skating - like products exclusively made for fans - but it was interesting that exclusive access to tickets was ranked so highly, with all the ticketing problems that skating fans regularly encounter. Also, given how much resources most federations invest in social media and "get to know [skater] campaigns, "behind the scenes" content wasn't that highly ranked. Could skating federations learn something from this kind of research?

 

[Orm Irian]

I don't think most federations are interested in finding out what fans actually want. The big ones want what fans they've got to fit their preferred type (or be pushed into fitting it) so they don't have to make changes to themselves, and the small ones are just grateful to have any fans at all (and don't have funds for research or to make changes).

 

[Miezekatze]

I'm not sure that skating and music events can be compared 1:1 in this regard, since I think in music the focus on being a fan of a particular artist or person is much higher than in a sport.

In music, I'm also interested in getting very good tickets to my favorites (and I also bought a ticket to a Meet & Greet after a concert next year). But none of the things on that list, would really be attractive to me in figure skating, because there I mostly want to see a good competition and the excitement around it.

In skating, personally the only thing that would make me spend more money on it again, would be more affordable tickets.

And a bigger focus on the artistic side instead of extremely difficult elements, especially in mens skating to be honest.

In my music fandom completely different things matter to me.

 

[Jenny]

Respect for fans. There was a time when I went to a lot of events in my home country and internationally, and one of the things that used to bug me is how they'd always say "cityxx fans, you're the best, thanks for coming out etc etc" when in fact a very large portion of the fans at any given event weren't from that city at all. More than just showing up for something in their hometown, these fans had used precious vacation days and spent a lot of money not just on tickets and merchandise, but on flights and hotel rooms too. You'd see so many familiar faces at every event, and remember the groups that would wear the same colour or had some crazy sweater or hat? Surely the federations had to be aware of these superfans by where they mailed the tickets if not by sight, and yet they were never acknowledged (at that time).

I'm reminded of when Paul Martini and others bought the old FSW discussion board that many of us long timers came from. Instead of viewing the board's members and participants as an important part of the skating community, a way to interact with fans and acknowledge them in an engaging way, they looked at us as a way to make money. On top of all the money fans already spent on the sport, we were supposed to now pay for access to the board and in return we'd get the odd bit of special content. Idiots.

Maybe it's different now, maybe social media has helped, I don't know, but I hope so for today's fans' sake.

 

[Simone411]

One thing that I do know is that I've received and accepted friend requests from a few of the figure skaters on FB. Now, I'm just simply a fan. I haven't been able to go to any of the figure skating competitions or shows like Stars on Ice because of my disability.

I figure that some of the skaters are probably friends with some of my FB friends here from FSU, and they saw that I was friends with them. Anyway, my figure skating friends are pretty cool and have never been stuck up or anything of the sort. I think it's pretty neat that the skaters requested my friendship. It simply means that they do appreciate their fans and like to keep them updated about how they're doing and about their upcoming competitions.

 

[tony]

1) A technical calling system that is consistent and fair. If a skater doesn’t rotate a jump, call it. Every time. If a skater can’t do a flip or Lutz properly, call it. Every time. Get rid of the q as a crutch for skaters to not lose GOE or base value. If a skater goes early in the day but has an amazing set of spins or great jumps, give them more than +1 rather than phoning it in. The sport has one technical panel who will go to town on every element (correctly), and the next week a panel who ignores every last thing.

2) Get rid of the choreographic element scales in all disciplines that throw top GOE or higher GOE at the top skaters, especially in dance. Find a way to change them to required elements from a larger selection pool, but without the outrageous GOE gain for vague criteria.

3) Get rid of the step sequence in the free skate. The skaters can show they can do the required complex movements in the short program, they don’t need 45 seconds taken up in the free skate on a repeat. This hopefully frees up time for the second mark, which has become non-existent for the majority of skaters these days (and they still get 8s and sometimes 9s in PCS).

Almost all programs in singles follow the exact same patterns in free skates: 4 jumps, a spin, step sequence, 3 jumps, spin, choreo seq, spin. Or something similar. In the free dance, at the 3 minute mark or so, a lot of the choreo elements take place around center ice and the skaters never leave that area. The character step, the choreographic lifts, etc, they all kill the flow of the program.

Get rid of the +Axel combinations that everyone is doing now and go back to traditional combinations. The skaters 9 times out of 10 go in every direction coming out of the jumps and it also kills the flow of the program. I’m big on landing edges and flow out of jumps and this is almost always a big clunker that has zero flow.

Finally, I’d be in favor of a 1.1x base value for any second jump in combo, and maybe 1.2x for a third jump. That way, a 2T+3T now has a slightly higher base value than a 3T+2T, and so on.

This, of course, coming from someone who studies and follows the rule changes and wants the scoring to be accurate from a technician side, but also wanting to see more ‘moments’ created on the artistic side of the sport rather than skaters plowing through all the elements. I realize most fans (even the long-time ones found on FSU) don’t necessarily care so much about the technical nuances.

As far as fan communities, I don’t know. The younger generations are dealing in an impossible to buy a house situation and I doubt they will shell out massive money to go see a competition where they likely want to just see and share social media clips of their favorites anyways.

I grew up recording every last thing to VHS from the time I was around 11 to when I left home to go to college. I’ve been putting up extensive archives on YouTube, but many other people have taken their collections down or gotten hit with copyright notices. FSVids had been a ghost town until a recent server update seems to have wiped it out completely. I didn’t see a mad rush of people trying to retain those archives, so I went and spent weeks saving everything I could find. Multiple purchases of external hard drives worth, on top of the 1000+ DVDs I have gotten. The fandom who actually cared about a lot of the history seems to be dying out, and now we are living in an ‘in the moment’ world where brief clips on social media seem to be all that matter for most.

 

[barbk]

Some of it seems pretty relevant, like early ticket access and practice access. An inexpensive practice pass would be a real benefit for fans who can't attend a full three-day event. Fixing the music licensing issue would be a huge one--so would streaming access that persisted. Better success in getting food vendors to open for practices would be lovely.

I went to a show at the Pepsi Center in Denver years ago, and one of the most popular attractions was an area with those life-size cutouts of a few of the Denver Nuggets basketball players. One of them was a guy who was really short for a pro-basketball player (maybe 5'7"?) and the number of people lined up to get pictures taken next to his cutout was never empty. Cheap and fun.

 

[fan]

the feds might not care what fans want, but sponsors do. And if the feds care for sponsorship, they should care about the fans.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I agree with almost all of @tony 's post except about the +A/+A+A series. They may go in all directions, but I'd much rather see them than the wretched +2+2 combinations with no proportional or absolute flow or height, which is 99% of them. It's not that the +3 combinations are uniformly great, but not as consistently horrific as the tiny +2/+2's. At least the +A's need some kind of forward propulsion.

I think if there's a Pairs SBS combination/sequence jump thing, it should have to cover at least 50% of the ice and consist of multiple jumps that are in sync and maintain equal distance and flow. IMO it should be a requirement now to judge the current SBS jumps and combinations/sequences by these criteria, but a series of "lesser" jumps would give little incentive to give higher GOE to harder jumps instead of letting the value table take care of that and let GOE reflect the quality.

 

[Rukia]

You have got to have easy, consistent access to viewing events. I know this isn't easy or cheap, but people want to "be there" when things are happening. More eyes on events are also good stats to get more sponsors on board.

 

[kwanfan1818]

How much are networks making per eyeball to make it worth paying the ISU anything for broadcast rights?

I assume more than the ISU could get by charging for streaming access and archival on demand access directly with less risk, but I do wonder what the difference is.

 

[Carolla5501]

the feds might not care what fans want, but sponsors do. And if the feds care for sponsorship, they should care about the fans.

IMHO the USFS federation at least has failed to draw that simple correlation...Fans are the "nuisance" they have to put up with

 

[Private Citizen]

Sadly, what general fans want and what "we" want probably doesn't overlap all that much. In some cases it may be in conflict.

The general fan doesn't give a fig about underrotations. They want more backflips, Beyonce, Biellmanns, and scoring by applause-o-meter.

 

[farahfan]

I don't think most skaters really care about their fans. They aren't taught that fans are a crucial part of their skating journey, and probably we aren't. The skaters are taught from an early age to perform for the judges. But a singer/musician performs for the audience and actively engages with their fans, talks to their fans during a concert, does interviews and social media, etc. Sure they have to suck up to the music CEOs and producers. But they live for the fans. That's just how music is.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I think @farahfan hit the nail on the head.

By the time a musician is presenting, then it's up to fans to decide how much $$$ and support to spend. Maybe some people care what critics have to say before they buy tickets, but, generally, it's not tied up to a contest in which judges with other concerns, allegiances, masters, etc. make some ranking decision. Fans generally try to see/buy recordings and/or merch from musicians they like, if the price and logistics are right and if there's availability. And, for the most part, they get at least an hour, if not hours, with the musicians they like and maybe a cover band they're not interested in. (Which they can skip, eat dinner or hang out at a bar, and show up for the main act.)

It's also a different thing when you have shows where people might go to see one or just a few skaters, but it's only a couple of hours invested in the whole show, and multi-day competitions where you can't necessarily make advanced plans for seeing your favorites, at least until the SP/RD is over. I remember trying to figure out if at 2020 Worlds in Montreal if I could get to hear Gerald Finley sing Winterreise at a concert hall and get back in time to see Kostornaia skate the FS. (Which, of course, turned out to be a moot question.)

 

[Coco]

Olympic Ice, the show that aired during the 2006 Games, has a lot of promise. While there will always - I hope - be a market for the traditional 1 skater performing a program, practice is oftentimes more exciting and unpredictable. With the right commentators and the right producer, it makes for more exciting TV. Of course, if the skaters don't show up, there's nothing to show.

 

[MacMadame]

Obviously some of these are not relevant to skating - like products exclusively made for fans - but it was interesting that exclusive access to tickets was ranked so highly, with all the ticketing problems that skating fans regularly encounter. Also, given how much resources most federations invest in social media and "get to know [skater] campaigns, "behind the scenes" content wasn't that highly ranked. Could skating federations learn something from this kind of research?

It's not just that skating isn't music, it's that skating is a sport and music is not. This means, as others have said, that fans aren't the number one demographic to cater to. A skater needs to score well to meet their goals. They don't have to please fans to do that. Unless their goals are to be a performer in a show. But for most that we see, their goal is to win, go to the top competitions and even the Olympics for some.

3) Get rid of the step sequence in the free skate. The skaters can show they can do the required complex movements in the short program, they don’t need 45 seconds taken up in the free skate on a repeat. This hopefully frees up time for the second mark, which has become non-existent for the majority of skaters these days (and they still get 8s and sometimes 9s in PCS).

The step sequences are some of the most popular parts of the FS. At least judging by audience reaction and comments on viral videos.

As far as fan communities, I don’t know. The younger generations are dealing in an impossible to buy a house situation and I doubt they will shell out massive money to go see a competition where they likely want to just see and share social media clips of their favorites anyways.

They shelled out major bucks to go see Taylor Swift. I think they will go to events if (a) they know about them and (b) they are structured in a way that appeals. And probably a week-long competition just isn't structured in a way that most people can do. The GPs are better because they take place over a long weekend and they happen in 7 locations (including the Final) and more if you get people interested in the JGP.

However, in terms of sponsors, it's enough for people to watch. Way more people are going to watch than go to events anyway because -- unlike a tour -- you can only hold so many people in the arena and Nationals only happens once a year in one town.

Sadly, what general fans want and what "we" want probably doesn't overlap all that much. In some cases it may be in conflict.

The general fan doesn't give a fig about underrotations. They want more backflips, Beyonce, Biellmanns, and scoring by applause-o-meter.

And less falls. If a jump goes up turns around a few times and lands somewhat gracefully, it's fine for most fans. Not most of us but even some of us.

As an example, I think most of Tony's wants are directly at odds with what most fans want. Even if I want some of them too.

 

[Aceon6]

With all the data that can be connected and analyzed, I want acknowledgement that I’m a fan who spends $ traveling to events, and that I support my local events. And if FOFS really isn’t generating any significant amount of money, that USFS ditch it in favor of a “repeat buyer” model.

 

[tony]

The step sequences are some of the most popular parts of the FS. At least judging by audience reaction and comments on viral videos.

And why do you think that is? I'll give a reason: because it's one of the only moments we see any sign of personality or 'artistry' in many programs, while they plow through everything else without any musical sensitivity. Anyways, since it's the exact same requirement for levels as the short program, I find it redundant and would rather see movement that matches the rises and falls and tempo of the music without the need for 5 or 7 or 9 complex turns and edges to get a level.

They shelled out major bucks to go see Taylor Swift. I think they will go to events if (a) they know about them and (b) they are structured in a way that appeals. And probably a week-long competition just isn't structured in a way that most people can do. The GPs are better because they take place over a long weekend and they happen in 7 locations (including the Final) and more if you get people interested in the JGP.

And Grand Prix events have small fields. The big events and even Nationals events in the States don't have any way around that, so there's no way to fix that problem.

 

[ice coverage]

I don't think most skaters really care about their fans. They aren't taught that fans are a crucial part of their skating journey, and probably we aren't. The skaters are taught from an early age to perform for the judges. But a singer/musician performs for the audience and actively engages with their fans, talks to their fans during a concert, does interviews and social media, etc. Sure they have to suck up to the music CEOs and producers. But they live for the fans. That's just how music is.

I must be watching a different sport from you! In my experience, many skaters (even when rattled after a rough skate) frequently make a point of communicating appreciation to fans, sometimes with the literal words of Thank You as well as with clear body language. The obvious gratitude of many skaters for fans comes across to me all the time -- when skaters are taking their bows at center ice, when they are waiting in the Kiss and Cry, when they are speaking in the mixed zone, when they are giving interviews, when they are posting on social media.
Many skaters are active on social media, and provide fans with behind-the-scenes video/photos as well as other content.

ETA:​

Another example of including fans in their skating journey: To help fans catch live streaming of a competition, some skaters post streaming links and schedule information -- either the start time for the whole segment or maybe even the specific time of their individual program.​

My hunch would be that it would not happen often that a skater would turn down a request for a sit-down interview. Bloggers and podcasts have been able to interview world champions, Olympians, and more.

IMO, it is apples and oranges to compare a skater performing on competition ice to a musician performing in concert.
It is totally understandable to me that when competing, skaters care about making a favorable impression on judges. For skaters, better competitive results can make a difference in earning future opportunities (both competitive and non-competitive) and possibly prize money.

 

[Private Citizen]

IME, audiences react more to choreographic sequences than step sequences because the choreo sequences move and flow better, and because skaters often include interesting highlight moves (spirals, Ina Bauers, knee slides, shoot-the-duck moves, backflips now....) that non-technical viewers can appreciate.

Back in the early 2000s, Tatiana Tarasova and Nikolai Morozov choreographed programs where the step sequence became an audience highlight, and that trend was quickly copied by others. But most of those step sequences would be level 1 or maximum level 2 today. Today's level 3 and 4 step sequences ARE tedious and redundant, with skaters commonly using the same 30-45 second step sequence from program to program. Only the very best skaters make me think otherwise (and sometimes not even then).

At a minimum, I'd like to see a time limit on step sequences of no more than 15-20 seconds. Anything longer could a deduction similar to extended lifts.

 

[Karen-W]

And less falls. If a jump goes up turns around a few times and lands somewhat gracefully, it's fine for most fans. Not most of us but even some of us.

As an example, I think most of Tony's wants are directly at odds with what most fans want. Even if I want some of them too.

Agreed. Going back to the music fans example... Most music fans are NOT well-educated in music theory. They don't know enough about music theory to understand the technical underpinnings of what makes a song great - like chord progression, musical arrangement, or lyric structure, etc. They just know whether or not they like it, whether or not it moves them, whether or not the music artist gives a good performance, etc.

While many skating fans will respond to a beautiful spread eagle or Russian splits timed perfectly to the music, and figure skating has enough pop cultural relevance for even casual fans to correctly identify a camel spin as a camel spin & know that's a different move than a sit spin with multiple changes of position, what's going to excite or interest those same casual fans is the currently trendy heel-kick change of edge being used in many camel spins this season, but they absolutely do NOT care that this counts as a difficult variation (just like the windmill illusions/acrobatic exits), etc.

And they REALLY don't care that much about jumps being called on the quarter or even < - that's a level of minutiae that is akin to a film aficionado watching a movie and noticing that an actress' ponytail is high in the first part of the scene, then it changes to a lower position with a different camera angle, then switches back to the high position for the last part of the scene - and then telling everyone in the seats around them in the theater just how incongruous it was and how it took them out of the entire film, especially if it happens a few more times in the movie. Most fans really do not care that much. And the ones that do... Welllllllll, they make slo-mo vids that they post on FSTWT, Reddit and FSU for everyone who cares to review & argue about also.

 

[tony]

And they REALLY don't care that much about jumps being called on the quarter or even < - that's a level of minutiae that is akin to a film aficionado watching a movie and noticing that an actress' ponytail is high in the first part of the scene, then it changes to a lower position with a different camera angle, then switches back to the high position for the last part of the scene - and then telling everyone in the seats around them in the theater just how incongruous it was and how it took them out of the entire film, especially if it happens a few more times in the movie. Most fans really do not care that much. And the ones that do... Welllllllll, they make slo-mo vids that they post on FSTWT, Reddit and FSU for everyone who cares to review & argue about also.

Same deal for those who play bingo during events and worry about getting this or that square, I guess you could say. Or maybe whether the tights or the mesh matches the skin tone exactly.

It’s a judged sport where everyone has an opinion on the second mark without even knowing what goes into it, but those of us who care equally about the technical mark- something with very clear established rules- get this rambling ponytail comparison. And sometimes, people suddenly think they are technical experts when it comes to the skaters not generally liked. For FSU, in the last few years, let’s say Tutberidze skaters, Russians mostly in general, Grassl, etc. Then you better believe all those technical nitpicks matter.

 

[Karen-W]

Same deal for those who play bingo during events and worry about getting this or that square, I guess you could say. Or maybe whether the tights or the mesh matches the skin tone exactly.

You go right ahead and be a jerk about those of us who enjoy playing bingo during events. You might also note that there are more people playing bingo than nitpicking the hell out of jump rotations and showing their personal biases against certain skaters with every single post in the pbp threads.

It’s a judged sport where everyone has an option on the second mark without even knowing what goes into it, but those of us who care equally about the technical mark- something with very clear established rules- get this rambling ponytail comparison. And sometimes, people suddenly think they are technical experts when it comes to the skaters not generally liked. For FSU, in the last few years, let’s say Tutberidze skaters, Russians mostly in general, Grassl, etc. Then you better believe all those technical nitpicks matter.

LOL - you do realize that incongruities in film scenes is actually a thing that legions of fans nitpick the hell out of, right? It may make a difference in a judged film competition even, but I'm not that much of an expert on film competitions to say for certain, though I'd guess that it probably does matter. I'd even bet it matters for a grade in film school.

Just because you may have a stronger understanding of how the technical mark is supposed to be evaluated does NOT mean you are the average fan - in fact, it proves that you are NOT the average fan at all. Arrogantly, you presume that your greater understanding of the technical aspects of the sport makes you the fan that should be catered to. The problem, and I agree with @MacMadame on this, is that the average fan does NOT possess the same technical understanding of the sport as you do nor are they likely to delve as deeply into the sport as someone like you. Even more dedicated fans like the vast majority of us who participate in forums like FSU, GoldenSkate, reddit, fstwt, etc are good with being able to call out egregious rotation issues on jumps, sketchy pairs lifts or twists, and the visible bobbles on twizzles in dance, but beyond that... It doesn't matter.

 

[Private Citizen]

Commentary is one of those dividing lines between "us" and "them." I don't know how many rants I've read over decades on Dick, Peggy, Scott Hamilton, etc., but the casual viewer does not want to watch in silence like many of "us" do. (I do enjoy good commentary, but I tend to be the exception.) I don't play bingo, but it's a clever way to make often hackneyed and repetitive commentary, which most serious fans find detracting, into something more fun.

It’s a judged sport where everyone has an opinion on the second mark without even knowing what goes into it, but those of us who care equally about the technical mark- something with very clear established rules[...]

Well, sort of. I don't fully accept that the code accurately reflects technical prowess, or that the 2024 way of judging is necessarily better in all respects than the pre-2002 or even the 1980s way of judging.

I'll give you an example of a skater I dislike, compared to one I do like: there's a universe in which Karen Chen would deserve higher marks for her jumps than, say, Isabeau Levito. 1980s or even 2002 judging might reward the height and distance of Chen's jumps and ignore the underrotation and edge issues. Look at Lu Chen v. Maria Butyrskaya.

I care about the technical mark, too, but I'd like to see more emphasis put on things like jump height, speed in spins, and flow in footwork sequences relative to q or < marks.

 

[tony]

You go right ahead and be a jerk about those of us who enjoy playing bingo during events. You might also note that there are more people playing bingo than nitpicking the hell out of jump rotations and showing their personal biases against certain skaters with every single post in the pbp threads.

Tiring to read how no one cares about the actual sport rules or such ‘minutiae’ things and when I make a rebuttal of other things people take up play by play threads with, I’m the jerk. Read what you wrote and what I quoted in response.

Just because you may have a stronger understanding of how the technical mark is supposed to be evaluated does NOT mean you are the average fan - in fact, it proves that you are NOT the average fan at all.

Arrogantly, you presume that your greater understanding of the technical aspects of the sport makes you the fan that should be catered to.

I literally said in my first reply in this thread that I know most fans don’t care about that kind of stuff. Someone really got offended over bingo and tights comments, I guess.

But if the sport is going to have rules that go out the window constantly and at a greater degree, then what’s the point of it being a sport?

The problem, and I agree with @MacMadame on this, is that the average fan does NOT possess the same technical understanding of the sport as you do nor are they likely to delve as deeply into the sport as someone like you. Even more dedicated fans like the vast majority of us who participate in forums like FSU, GoldenSkate, reddit, fstwt, etc are good with being able to call out egregious rotation issues on jumps, sketchy pairs lifts or twists, and the visible bobbles on twizzles in dance, but beyond that... It doesn't matter.

FSU and the older age group isn’t exactly indicative of the skating fandom found elsewhere on the internet, where there are a little bit more in-depth discussions and clarifications about protocols and rules. It’s not as if the PBP threads here are booming these days, anyways.

 

[Simone411]

I grew up recording every last thing to VHS from the time I was around 11 to when I left home to go to college. I’ve been putting up extensive archives on YouTube, but many other people have taken their collections down or gotten hit with copyright notices. FSVids had been a ghost town until a recent server update seems to have wiped it out completely. I didn’t see a mad rush of people trying to retain those archives, so I went and spent weeks saving everything I could find. Multiple purchases of external hard drives worth, on top of the 1000+ DVDs I have gotten. The fandom who actually cared about a lot of the history seems to be dying out, and now we are living in an ‘in the moment’ world where brief clips on social media seem to be all that matter for most.

Tony, I'm like you in a way. I have close to 200 VHS tapes, and some are 8-hour tapes. If nothing would have happened regarding my YouTube channel, I had planned to work on all the SOI shows I had recorded using VHS tapes. I have a lot of the skating videos on an external hard drive like you.

Things sort of ended when I had to delete my YouTube channel, and when I became ill again, it delayed me using my VCR to PC to transfer what's on all those tapes I have. I sort of miss the days before all the scoring, code of points, etc. because you could see much better choreography, footwork sequences, etc. The skaters weren't having to worry about getting the highest scores possible from their jumps, jump sequences and edges. Presentation mattered along with technical skills. I guess it still does, but the jumps are where it's at. The more quads, the more triple triple jumps, etc. is what matters now. I know I'm going to miss Jason Brown whenever he decides to retire.

To me, it's become more mechanical than anything for some of the skaters that don't have good presentation. It's sort of like a robot that has jumping sequences and no presentation or artistry.

 

[Karen-W]

Tiring to read how no one cares about the actual sport rules or such ‘minutiae’ things and when I make a rebuttal of other things people take up play by play threads with, I’m the jerk. Read what you wrote and what I quoted in response.

Well, if we're talking about what fans notice, I'd bet that more casual fans notice when the tights color is off than the jump rotation is q or <, .

I literally said in my first reply in this thread that I know most fans don’t care about that kind of stuff. Someone really got offended over bingo and tights comments, I guess.

I question why you're even posting in this thread then, when the question is "what do fans want?" as you acknowledge you're not like most fans. I was agreeing with @MacMadame's original post and you're the one who chose to quote me instead of addressing her post where she mentioned you directly as not being representative of most fans, and especially not casual fans.

But if the sport is going to have rules that go out the window constantly and at a greater degree, then what’s the point of it being a sport?

Honestly, that's an entirely different discussion - one we've had on FSU in the past - and I'd be thrilled if the ISU put some money into upgrading the judging system software to prevent those obvious issues that we talk about in the pbp threads (when GOE is supposed to be capped and the judges just don't give two figs about that & give high GOE, etc), or if the sport could advance technologically to the point where things like jump rotation or edge calls were handled by AI and out of the technical panel's control completely. You'll get no disagreement from me that it's a HUGE problem to have inconsistent technical panels applying different standards to different skaters not only from competition to competition but within some competitions.

I don't even know how to fix ice dance judging at this point - well, actually, one thing I'd do is increase the scale of values to make it really matter whether you get a L3 or L4 on your twizzles, or a L1 vs a L2 on the pattern step, etc. The IDTC diluted the impact of major errors by one member of the team when they made the changes to the scale of values after 2018 and footwork was judged individually rather than for the entire team. I could live with the ridiculous choreo elements & GOE tossed like candy if there was at least some balance & real punishment for teams that are unevenly matched in skating skills or when there is a major error. As it is, right now, ice dance is back to where we were pre-IJS and the only time the pre-ordained order is disrupted is when Chock, Poirier, Lagha, or Fabbri fall in competition.

But, do I think that kind of competition integrity is going to drive more fans into the sport? Not really. And I'm not sure that lack of competition integrity necessarily drives fans away either - look at all the discussion generated by crazy Fanyus attacking any male skater who dares to usurp their precious Hanyu's primacy, lol; look at all the discussion generated by ice dance fans who bemoan the current crop of dancers being nowhere near the level of their precious Papadakis/Cizeron or Virtue/Moir, lol.

FSU and the older age group isn’t exactly indicative of the skating fandom found elsewhere on the internet, where there are a little bit more in-depth discussions and clarifications about protocols and rules. It’s not as if the PBP threads here are booming these days, anyways.

I'm not sure pbp threads are the best place for those discussions - and we have plenty of threads here in GSD where there are in-depth discussions about technical strengths & weaknesses of various skaters. There are certainly opportunities within the pbp threads here where something strange happens or someone asks why a certain call was made & usually someone chimes in with a quick explanation. I also think that most of us understand the judging system well enough to not really need to go back into the protocols and discuss them a lot unless, again, something odd happens, or we want confirmation about why a score was lower/higher than expected.

 

[Willin]

This week I attended a seminar on engaging with fans, retaining them, and (maybe most importantly) getting them to spend their money on "product". It was focused on the music industry but I thought that some of it was quite relevant to sports as well.

One of the panelists presented a survey that their organization had done of "core fans" - regular event attenders and followers of performers on social media etc. The survey listed several kinds of incentives and asked the fans to rate the incentives from most to least attractive, as in which would make them most likely to spend money on getting that incentive. These were the overall rankings:

• early access to products (like new music)
• products released exclusively to fans
• exclusive access to tickets
• exclusive merchandise
• "behind the scenes" content
• access to artists (e.g. meet and greets)
• access to online communities

Obviously some of these are not relevant to skating - like products exclusively made for fans - but it was interesting that exclusive access to tickets was ranked so highly, with all the ticketing problems that skating fans regularly encounter. Also, given how much resources most federations invest in social media and "get to know [skater] campaigns, "behind the scenes" content wasn't that highly ranked. Could skating federations learn something from this kind of research?

I think the thing is that so much marketing is parasocial relationship building. Most popular skaters have some element of this intentionally or not. Yuzuru Hanyu and the Eteri girls (and TikTuk) had this, but an even more media heavy side of parasocial - with interviews and documentaries making fans think they really knew them. V/M's parasocial was oddly mostly propagated by fans and supplemented by things like their documentary and interviews, but they didn't try to stop it.

The Flores sisters are more popular as parasocial influencers than skaters. Loena and Amber also have very influencer-esque posts. OTOH, Alysa Liu doesn't talk directly to fans like an influencer, but her more casual social media posting and the parasocial narrative NBC/USFS/the news built around her has many fans on her side. Ilia hosts instagram lives, makes jump content the people want to see, etc. These are the people popular state-side.

We can debate how creepy and uncomfortable parasocial marketing is, but it's highly effective. I think the sport needs to consider that encouraging athletes to follow TikTok/instagram trends and seeking out sponsorships/endorsement deals will help the sport. But the ISU will also need to up their game. That website roll out was bad. Their social media game is bad. Their archive game is bad. Even the current format of "get to know skaters" content is just so, so out of date and bad.

I think they (and feds) need to find ways to drive interest through parasocial methods: make a run to the Olympics documentary series with skaters that have a lot of charisma. Do social media takeovers by skaters - and encourage skaters to use influencer tactics. Maybe even have charismatic skaters pair with popular influence channels or even celeb influencers for skating lesson vids. Encourage popular retired skaters (Yuzu?) to host episodes of a web series where they go visit various training rinks/coaches/skaters to see different cultures of training. Do the USFS thing and host meet and greets or autograph/merch sessions at big competitions - and maybe encourage/allow skaters to sell their own merch there instead of the competition branded merch. Encourage skaters to show their interests and hobbies - skating to Billie Eilish and Wednesday in shows went over great with non-skating fans.

FSU and the older age group isn’t exactly indicative of the skating fandom found elsewhere on the internet, where there are a little bit more in-depth discussions and clarifications about protocols and rules. It’s not as if the PBP threads here are booming these days, anyways.

Yes, this is a common trend among a lot of younger fans right now.

I remember a lot of people saying back during an old Olympics (Sochi? Vancouver?) that the official judge-along system was not only fun but helped them understand the judging system better. I think the ISU creating an official judge-along app would be a great way to engage current fans and help new fans understand IJS better. Maybe have the fans able to key in scores, but also have a quick reference on GOE bullet points, PCS standards, etc. for fans to see as they judge. They could even make it a game - at the end of the segment you could see how close your scores were to those of the real judges.

 

[tony]

I question why you're even posting in this thread then, when the question is "what do fans want?" as you acknowledge you're not like most fans. I was agreeing with @MacMadame's original post and you're the one who chose to quote me instead of addressing her post where she mentioned you directly as not being representative of most fans, and especially not casual fans.

I gave several points in my first post on how to change the technical elements side of things to allow for more ‘artistic’ moments, which are very much lacking through most programs these days.

Is that not what fans want? At least I’m offering up a way to change things around and at least allow the ability for skaters to not have to rush element to element.