UPDATED: Jason Brown to Brian Orser (official)

[aftershocks]

This is really good news! As an avid Jason fan I’m very excited for him. I thought he was more likely to move to Arutunian, who can probably help him with jumps. But in toronto he will find more likeminded coaches and choreographers, with their balanced approach to the whole package and his access to top choreographers on a regular basis. Plus I think the presence of quadsters will really inspire and motivate him. I remember how inspired I always felt when I skated with people who were just a bit better than me. It really changes your mindset from, gosh that jump is so daunting, to, oh its no big deal, i can get it.

It does sound like Brian’s plate got a little too full and it took a good bit of convincing on Jason’s part, and persuasion on Tracy wilson’s part, to get Brian on board. It probably took so long for the move to be confirmed/announced because they were still working out the scheduling. Jason spent time there in a SOI break to convince them he belonged there. I think he will have to do a bit of proving himself there. But maybe that’s not a bad thing, as long as he uses it as a motivator. I think he has the right kind of personality to make it work.

It’s interesting Orser mentioned Jason is a young adult and can take care of himself. That might have gone into the argument to take him on as well — since he’ll need a lot less logistic handholding than Boyang Jin, Medev, etc, who know little English and the North American way of life.

Much as I love Rohene’s choreography, I’m very curious what David Wilson will manage to put together for him. I’ve always liked David as a choreographer and person.

Go Jason! I’m so excited for you!

Wow, where do you get your insider details from?

Well, but I guess it's not that difficult knowing people in skating who talk.

ETA: Oh, I see you must be surmising from the reporting/quotes in the IFS article.

 

[wickedwitch]

I really despise the argument that poor results imply a poor work ethic. It's just completely illogical.

I'm a tad worried about the number of skaters Brian has, but if the situation doesn't work out, he can always move again. He has nothing tying him to Toronto. I'm just proud he took the necessary first step of leaving Kori.

 

[katmari]

Here's an interview with Shingo Nishiyama (a young Japanese skater who is a fan of Jason) and he goes into great detail about his training at the TCC. I didn't pay a lot of attention to the details when the interview was first posted. Of course, now that Jason has joined TCC I'm finding all the info very interesting and relevant.

http://absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=interviews&id=2018shingonishiyama

Jason and Shingo at the Cricket Club (posted in April)

Nice fan art of the Cricket Club members in their superhero outfits:
https://twitter.com/yyyyyuuuuun/status/1001729452898856960

Maybe it could be a new anime series -- Avengers on Ice?

 

[aftershocks]

I read John Curry's book, where he talks about working with Lussi, who totally revamped all of his jumps. Lussi put John in a tiny cage and made him work on his jumps with almost no speed, to gain more vertical entrances. Curry said that at one point he couldn't even do a single axel any longer, but the technique eventually worked. As for the "straight edge" takeoff and landings, many coaches use this (Frank Carroll is a big exponent of this, you can really see it in Michelle Kwan's technique) and I learned it myself as a (roller) skater. Skaters with this technique rarely have "wonky" landings.

It should work for quads as well, as long as there is sufficient height. Hanyu and Boyang Jin have little to no pre-rotation in their quads.

Interesting. What about Nathan Chen's technique in contrast? I would imagine there's no pre-rotation with him either. Nathan's technique appears to involve effective arm placement, excellent height and tight rotations. However, Nathan does tend to land forward sometimes. It looks better to land more upright with great flow-out. That upright posture on landing and superb flow-out is what made Johnny Weir's jumps seem so effortless, early in his senior career.

I think that perhaps Lussi would have revamped the way he taught jump technique to account for the advent of quads, had he been around when quads became essential for men.

... I knew Yuzu went to Brian in 2012 but I didn't follow the men much at all back then...

Still, I stand by what I said : Brian did elevate Yuzu's skating beyond what he was when he came to him and he definitely made Javi into a champion. He has a knack for building upon what a skater already has and bringing out the best in them. Jason has a great base to work with so I'm excited to see what he can become under Brian's guidance.

ITA. I think Brian helped Yuzu a lot with training effectively and with overall strategizing. Most of all, Orser helped Yuzu pace his programs to help his endurance which was a huge problem and stumbling block for Yuzu (perhaps exacerbated by his asthma), especially during his free programs. Yuzu had a lot of difficulty with running out of steam and falling, and looking like he was loathe to get up (which became a turn-off for me).

It was definitely noticeable when Yuzu began to improve his pacing and his endurance. And thereby his confidence. ITA that Orser helped Yuzu become a consistent champion.

 

[mag]

In addition, people have mention Jason's work ethic (i.e. Frank Carroll) on the record. I just don't agree with the premise that he's not getting quads because he didn't want to practice them or lack the ability to do so.

I agree. It would be nice if strong work ethic = good results, but unfortunately that is not always the case. I think Jason doesn’t have a consistent quad because it is an extremely difficult thing to do! It is even more difficult for old guys like Jason who weren’t brought up through skating with the planning to have multiple quads. Young guys learning double now know they will one day need a bunch of different quads to be competitive. That will inform the way they train at the doubles’ stage.

 

[caseyedwards]

If he wants to be more than a quadless journeyman he needs to work with people who have successful quad performers.

 

[caitie]

My understanding is that when Jason came up, learning quads at a young age was actually discouraged by USFS policies due to concerns about injuries. I also feel that if work ethic were an issue in his struggles to gain one, Jason wouldn’t excel in skating skills, spins, and delivering complex choreography to the extent that he does.

Anyway, I don’t know or really care that much if Jason gets a quad. But I so enjoy his skating and am excited to see him work with a different choreographer and team. I hope he gets what he’s is looking for out of the move.

 

[Dobre]

My understanding is that when Jason came up, learning quads at a young age was actually discouraged by USFS policies due to concerns about injuries.

Hmm. I don't think that's really a full picture. Even without the quad, generally speaking, there have been guys trying the triple axel at the junior level in the U.S. men's field for a long time. I remember it both in 2005 and 2010. Jeremy Abbott wasn't the guy who had it, and neither was Jason. And they won the junior men's events I saw. Those two young men had a lot of other skating strengths that allowed them to do so, but neither was at the top of the jumping curve. So I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Jason didn't have a quad because it was discouraged. Perhaps more accurate to say that he didn't need to have the toughest jumps to win, and it wasn't his natural strength. Look how tremendously far he has gotten with the skills he has. I mean, most people with an iffy triple axel wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as far as he did internationally in 2014-15. Nathan was over four years younger than Jason. With the skills Jason has, it took a long time for him to get pushed into needing a quad in the U.S. men's field. Max and Jason pushed each other, but their strengths were so different. Took a long time for even a perfect skate not to be enough.

I would add that Jason has had a lot of injuries over the past three seasons. He's trying the hard jumps; but if you can't compete them and stay healthy, then you really aren't better off doing them. Look at Misha & Denis. And Han Yan. Really, athletes have to train with their own strengths and health in mind.

 

[MAXSwagg]

This is a great move but at 23, with absolutely no quad in competition, his chances of getting a consistent quad have maybe gone up from 10% to what? 20%?

 

[Inessence]

I really despise the argument that poor results imply a poor work ethic. It's just completely illogical.

I'm a tad worried about the number of skaters Brian has, but if the situation doesn't work out, he can always move again. He has nothing tying him to Toronto. I'm just proud he took the necessary first step of leaving Kori.

I’m guessing a coach taking less of a “mommy” role and who is more the “drill sargent” type can whip him into shape. Toughen him up a bit.

 

[el henry]

I’m guessing a coach taking less of a “mommy” role and who is more the “drill sargent” type can whip him into shape. Toughen him up a bit.

You don’t need to guess. The *last* thing Jason Brown, who has a steely resolve and determined work ethic, needs is a drill sargent. Or any toughening up. He’s plenty tough already. Thank heavens that’s not what Brian intends to do, from what I can tell

And I haven’t seen any coach take a “mommy” role toward Jason. Unless you mean that noted soft touch Frank Carroll, who has praised his obvious work ethic.

So looking forward to the next season

 

[Inessence]

A fresh approach and change of environment then.

 

[Meoima]

This is a great move but at 23, with absolutely no quad in competition, his chances of getting a consistent quad have maybe gone up from 10% to what? 20%?

It's fine, if he has no quads for the next 4 years. The new judging might give him more chance if he is consistent with just triples. But IMO he really wants a quad.

 

[skateboy]

I think that perhaps Lussi would have revamped the way he taught jump technique to account for the advent of quads, had he been around when quads became essential for men.

It's possible.

Still, it's interesting to watch the head movement of the most successful quadsters (and triple jumpers, for that matter). As a rule, they do not rotate their head movement into the initial takeoff of the jump. Counter-clockwise jumper example here: if anything, the head looks a tiny bit to the right just as the jump takes off. It's fascinating to see when you're looking for it!

 

[antmanb]

It's possible.

Still, it's interesting to watch the head movement of the most successful quadsters (and triple jumpers, for that matter). As a rule, they do not rotate their head movement into the initial takeoff of the jump. Counter-clockwise jumper example here: if anything, the head looks a tiny bit to the right just as the jump takes off. It's fascinating to see when you're looking for it!

Except the king of 3A (Hanyu) - I've watched super slomo of his 3A and he notably cocks his head slightly to the right as he steps onto the LFO edge and then snaps his head sharply to his left shoulder as he takes off. I haven't checked his quads but his 3A is certainly done that way.

Whichever technique a skaters uses the head is still the heaviest part of the body and where it goes the rest of the body will follow. Mishin still teaches a technique very similar to Lussi.

Completely on a tangent but why is the Cricket Club called the Cricket Club?

 

[googooeyes]

Completely on a tangent but why is the Cricket Club called the Cricket Club?[/QUOTE]
The Cricket Club is an amalgamation of the very old Toronto Cricket Club, the Toronto Skating Club and the Toronto Curling Clubs into one club facility. It is an exclusive high end private members club with full sports and dining facilities. It's called the Cricket Club for short.
They also have special skating only memberships.

http://www.torontocricketclub.com

 

[antmanb]

Thank you! I've always wondered since cricket and skating aren't sports that necessarily go hand in hand

 

[Meoima]

Except the king of 3A (Hanyu) - I've watched super slomo of his 3A and he notably cocks his head slightly to the right as he steps onto the LFO edge and then snaps his head sharply to his left shoulder as he takes off. I haven't checked his quads but his 3A is certainly done that way.

Whichever technique a skaters uses the head is still the heaviest part of the body and where it goes the rest of the body will follow. Mishin still teaches a technique very similar to Lussi.

Completely on a tangent but why is the Cricket Club called the Cricket Club?

Hanyu does the same with his quads. Look at this 4lz: https://youtu.be/cr6PIv9EQmY
and 4S https://youtu.be/4ms8jDSlWTU
4Loop: https://youtu.be/PHSV4nlCvaY
The second parts of the videos have slow motion.
He snaps his head sharply to his left shoulder as he takes off.

 

[danibellerika]

Except the king of 3A (Hanyu) - I've watched super slomo of his 3A and he notably cocks his head slightly to the right as he steps onto the LFO edge and then snaps his head sharply to his left shoulder as he takes off. I haven't checked his quads but his 3A is certainly done that way.

Whichever technique a skaters uses the head is still the heaviest part of the body and where it goes the rest of the body will follow. Mishin still teaches a technique very similar to Lussi.

Completely on a tangent but why is the Cricket Club called the Cricket Club?

He does in his quads too. It's fascinating.
https://youtu.be/SB0jLBwM9s4?t=4m48s (it's right at the 4S, but the 3A and 4T soon follow)

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

So many variables go into attempting, practicing, rotating, and landing jumps. Otherwise, everyone would have quadruples.

Skating is such a harsh sport that weeds out athletes without the full arsenal of tricks. I only hope that with this move, Brown may fully achieve his future goals.

 

[LarrySK8]

Jason being 23 and an athlete all his life is not a detriment to learning one or two quadruple jumps. Remember, this is the skater (and I was there as a skater in the area and saw it progress from afar) Kori found at a local ice rink teaching himself double jumps. HIMSELF. And he did them very quickly - after only a few weeks he had all doubles. There was no coach, there was no Lussi, there was no one but himself. The Kori started with him and he plan was to slowly add the hard jumps while nurturing what was special about Jason, i.e. the NON-jump elements.

Kori found him jumping and spinning, but she taught him how to SKATE, and how to perform and how to please the US judges. Long before Colorado or Rohene (who was still competing). Now that he has this developed, he needs to go back and re-work his jumps from the beginning. The very beginning, because he learned to jump (self-taught) a certain way and that now has to be fixed.

The Lussi technique can be modified to teach quadruple jumps. Also, the use of DART can help as well for the skater to understand the physics and apply it to their own body's characteristics (fast v slow muscle twitch; height; weight; frame size; whether or not the body is straight or has curves, etc - for example, a skater should know that pointing their feet and toes during jumps would speed up the rotations - flexed feet slow the rotations, ETC)

Lussi taught that a skater must jump vertically and align over the landing side and then start rotating at the peak of the jump. Look at Dick Button's triple loop - the fist triple - it is Lussi technique. Then, go have a gander at Elvis Stojko's quadruple toe or Hanyu's quadruple loop (when done well). The first rotation is made on the way to the peak of the jump with no delay as in the Lussi technique and then the skater - put simply - does a triple at the top, making a quadruple jump.

Orser did quads in his practices in the 1980's, as Sabovcik was doing the quad in competition. Sabovcik learned via older European technique like Lussi. It can be modified to teach the quadruple, and should not be considered useless.

Orser knows a lot about the quad toe personally and learning it after the age of 20. He can teach Jason, but it remains to be seen if what Jason taught himself years ago can be erased in favor of better jump technique.

 

[aftershocks]

Hmm. I don't think that's really a full picture. Even without the quad, generally speaking, there have been guys trying the triple axel at the junior level in the U.S. men's field for a long time. I remember it both in 2005 and 2010. Jeremy Abbott wasn't the guy who had it, and neither was Jason. And they won the junior men's events I saw. Those two young men had a lot of other skating strengths that allowed them to do so, but neither was at the top of the jumping curve. So I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Jason didn't have a quad because it was discouraged. Perhaps more accurate to say that he didn't need to have the toughest jumps to win, and it wasn't his natural strength. Look how tremendously far he has gotten with the skills he has. I mean, most people with an iffy triple axel wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as far as he did internationally in 2014-15. Nathan was over four years younger than Jason. With the skills Jason has, it took a long time for him to get pushed into needing a quad in the U.S. men's field. Max and Jason pushed each other, but their strengths were so different. Took a long time for even a perfect skate not to be enough.

I would add that Jason has had a lot of injuries over the past three seasons. He's trying the hard jumps; but if you can't compete them and stay healthy, then you really aren't better off doing them. Look at Misha & Denis. And Han Yan. Really, athletes have to train with their own strengths and health in mind.

In regard to the 3-axel during the timeframe you mention, that jump had become a necessity for guys to have any chance at a successful career in the senior ranks. It wasn't until after the 2010 Olympics that quads began to become an absolute must-have. In the crushing rush to get quads, the progress of some notable careers of very talented skaters was hampered, including the careers of Richard Dornbush and Ross Miner (to name two). Of course, you've also named the quad/injury challenges of several other men (Joshua Farris' career sadly is another quad-related injury casualty). Practically every skater has been physically affected by the training demands of quads, including those who've been able to acquire them seemingly more easily.

I don't know enough about whether or not practicing quads was necessarily discouraged by USFS. I agree, similar to your view, that it's more likely a focus wasn't placed on training quads because the scoring system prior to 2010 Olympics did not put an emphasis on guys needing to acquire them. It was fairly much left up to coaches and skaters re how individual jump development was handled.

Jason has always been amazingly gifted aesthetically. It was apparent from an early age, re his sensitivity to music, his spinning qualities and extension, his ability to connect with audiences, his enthusiasm and joy for skating. Kori and Jason having collaborated with Rohene early on is also a huge factor in Jason's artistic development and overall growth. Rohene and Jason have similar qualities as skaters and thus they have complemented one another so well creatively, despite some of the well-worn criticisms by some fans. Again, as a junior and in Jason's early seasons as a senior, the decision seemed to be to focus on Jason further fine-tuning and polishing his extraordinary attention to detail. It made Jason a rare, one-of-a-kind skater who could rack up points as an all-around talent. I recall some fans feeling that Jason would never acquire a 3-axel, and they were wrong. It just took him a bit longer (I think largely because of his physicality). Jason has needed to work on gaining more height and quicker rotations.

Clearly Jason can do the quad, but the major challenge for him appears to be putting this difficult (mentally and physically draining) element into programs under competitive pressure. That's a problem for many skaters because the overemphasis on quads can detract from a focus on artistic content and expressiveness, as we've seen happen so often. The sport still has not decided how to deal with the OTT demands of too much technical content which detracts from skaters' being able to craft programs that soar and uplift audiences.

 

[Tavi]

Jason being 23 and an athlete all his life is not a detriment to learning one or two quadruple jumps. Remember, this is the skater (and I was there as a skater in the area and saw it progress from afar) Kori found at a local ice rink teaching himself double jumps. HIMSELF. And he did them very quickly - after only a few weeks he had all doubles. There was no coach, there was no Lussi, there was no one but himself. The Kori started with him and he plan was to slowly add the hard jumps while nurturing what was special about Jason, i.e. the NON-jump elements.

Kori found him jumping and spinning, but she taught him how to SKATE, and how to perform and how to please the US judges. Long before Colorado or Rohene (who was still competing). Now that he has this developed, he needs to go back and re-work his jumps from the beginning. The very beginning, because he learned to jump (self-taught) a certain way and that now has to be fixed.

The Lussi technique can be modified to teach quadruple jumps. Also, the use of DART can help as well for the skater to understand the physics and apply it to their own body's characteristics (fast v slow muscle twitch; height; weight; frame size; whether or not the body is straight or has curves, etc - for example, a skater should know that pointing their feet and toes during jumps would speed up the rotations - flexed feet slow the rotations, ETC)

Lussi taught that a skater must jump vertically and align over the landing side and then start rotating at the peak of the jump. Look at Dick Button's triple loop - the fist triple - it is Lussi technique. Then, go have a gander at Elvis Stojko's quadruple toe or Hanyu's quadruple loop (when done well). The first rotation is made on the way to the peak of the jump with no delay as in the Lussi technique and then the skater - put simply - does a triple at the top, making a quadruple jump.

Orser did quads in his practices in the 1980's, as Sabovcik was doing the quad in competition. Sabovcik learned via older European technique like Lussi. It can be modified to teach the quadruple, and should not be considered useless.

Orser knows a lot about the quad toe personally and learning it after the age of 20. He can teach Jason, but it remains to be seen if what Jason taught himself years ago can be erased in favor of better jump technique.

Kori started teaching Jason when he was 5.

 

[Teenes]

Slipped on confetti so he can't jump until July, wtf?

Stars on Ice please what on earth is that stupidity throwing confetti on ice.

Unless my memory fails me, Stars on Ice doesn’t have confetti in the show. However, we saw a piece of confetti flutter to the ice from the rafters in Toronto and my friend was pretty sure it was leftover from an earlier Pink concert. I’m sure other arenas may have the same issue.

 

[Firedancer]

Icenetwork article on Jason’s move to Brian Orser with comments from Jason and Brian: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/05/31/279137174

 

[barbarafan]

I do think Gogolov has been with Brian for quite awhile. Andrew Hallam seems to be the main dance coach. There are two very young strong Jr teams there

I believe Brian has had him since he was 7. He turned 13 in December.

 

[Jaana]

I’m less excited the more i think of it to see what David Wilson will do. That shit he created for Johnny Weir for instance ... ghastly. Also, David is less sophisticated than say Lori so i am expecting choreography similar to what we’ve seen already.

Are you sure that was the way Wilson choreographed Weir´s programs? I´m sure there would have been transitions if Weir was able to handle that kind of programs and maybe his coach simplified the programs....

 

[skateboy]

Except the king of 3A (Hanyu) - I've watched super slomo of his 3A and he notably cocks his head slightly to the right as he steps onto the LFO edge and then snaps his head sharply to his left shoulder as he takes off. I haven't checked his quads but his 3A is certainly done that way.

Yes, that is what I meant to say (you explained it better than I did). It's the slight right turn of the head before jumping that is so interesting to me, and I've now noticed it with many of the "big jump" skaters.

 

[aftershocks]

Are you sure that was the way Wilson choreographed Weir´s programs? I´m sure there would have been transitions if Weir was able to handle that kind of programs and maybe his coach simplified the programs....

^^ I believe there were some changes to Johnny's programs made by his coach Galina (just as she unnecessarily fiddled with his jump technique).

 

[aftershocks]

Icenetwork article on Jason’s move to Brian Orser with comments from Jason and Brian: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/05/31/279137174

From the article:
"Brown insisted the coaching shift was about much more than quads.

'It wasn't all about technical things or jump technique,' he said. 'It was definitely a factor in what I was looking at in another coach, but I wanted someone who can help me in all aspects of skating, and the biggest factor was I needed a change.'

'I don't think I have truly tapped into my potential in terms of the technical side of the sport,' he said. 'And even in the artistry, I feel I can grow a lot more. I really do believe there [are] many more defining moments to create...'"