Unpopular Opinions

[olympic]

Of the US women, Nancy Kerrigan had the best spiral, not Kristi, not Michelle, not Sasha

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Of the US women, Nancy Kerrigan had the best spiral, not Kristi, not Michelle, not Sasha

Ummmm… Nicole… Sasha….. ?

Best spiral sequence ever Nicole Bobek

Best lay back spin ever Angela, Dorothy a close second

 

[barbk]

For all the talk about how helpful school figures were to having strong edges, the skating skills of the lower two thirds of ladies at Worlds 1982 & 1984 were pretty terrible compared to today's skaters.

 

[On My Own]

For all the talk about how helpful school figures were to having strong edges, the skating skills of the lower two thirds of ladies at Worlds 1982 & 1984 were pretty terrible compared to today's skaters.

Figures never really translated to free skating imo

Apart from Janet Lynn I'm actually not sure what was so amazing about skating during the figures era... I really only started liking skating when we come to late 80s with Midori and Kurt, and figures were eliminated shortly afterwards.

 

[SkateGuard]

I'm actually not sure what was so amazing about skating during the figures era

John Curry, Torvill, Dean
On the cover of a magazine

Janet Lynn, edges so clean
Picture of a skating queen
Toller Cranston, he had flair
Peggy Fleming, glide on air

They had style, they had grace
Sonja Henie gave good face
Tenley, Dorothy, Carol too
Robin Cousins, we love you

Good skating with no attitude
With choreography that wasn't crude
Don't just stand there, let's get to it
Head to YouTube - there's nothing to it

 

[olympic]

For all the talk about how helpful school figures were to having strong edges, the skating skills of the lower two thirds of ladies at Worlds 1982 & 1984 were pretty terrible compared to today's skaters.

Were you talking about in Figures or SP / LP? I do remember 82 Worlds LP was a splat fest, but it was memorable for Queen Zayak rising from 7th to the top.

 

[On My Own]

With choreography that wasn't crude

What is "crude"?
"constructed in a rudimentary or makeshift way."

Would say this was very much the case before late 1980s.

We're not going to agree. I don't see black and white films without sound of 20th century as something amazingly watchable - I just recognize them as a necessary step for modern film. Place Michelle Kwan next to anyone you named, and I think most will see her tech content as well as choreography were far better.

 

[Wyliefan]

Good skating with no attitude

Yes, skating in those days was notable for its complete lack of attitude.

 

[barbk]

Were you talking about in Figures or SP / LP? I do remember 82 Worlds LP was a splat fest, but it was memorable for Queen Zayak rising from 7th to the top.

LP -- leaving aside the top groups of skaters, the fundamental skating skills (not jumps) of many of the competitors were pretty awful. Hunched backs, pumping, slow, and overall lacking in power. The field moves were also pretty lame. Today's skaters are markedly better on those aspects, even in the lowest groups of the LP.

 

[On My Own]

Yes, skating in those days was notable for its complete lack of attitude.

Practically everything improved by the late 1980s lol. It's barely watchable before then, at least coming from the perspective of someone who only got into it because that someone really loves dance. Choreography became more structured (as did the music cuts), the musicality became more evident, and it was exciting because of the big jumps.

This is to be expected, mind you. (ETA: I did forget Torville/Dean, so them and Lynn)

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

John Curry, Torvill, Dean
On the cover of a magazine

Janet Lynn, edges so clean
Picture of a skating queen
Toller Cranston, he had flair
Peggy Fleming, glide on air

They had style, they had grace
Sonja Henie gave good face
Tenley, Dorothy, Carol too
Robin Cousins, we love you

Good skating with no attitude
With choreography that wasn't crude
Don't just stand there, let's get to it
Head to YouTube - there's nothing to it

Brilliant

 

[SkateGuard]

We're not going to agree. I don't see black and white films without sound of 20th century as something amazingly watchable - I just recognize them as a necessary step for modern film. Place Michelle Kwan next to anyone you named, and I think most will see her tech content as well as choreography were far better.

We're definitely not going to agree and hey - not everyone has to! Black & white films without sound are amazingly watchable to me. I don't look at old footage of skating and think "wow, look how far we've come and how bad everyone was back then" or "imagine if they could do quads". I appreciate skating from every era for what made it unique - and that includes the art of figures. Michelle Kwan was absolutely outstanding in every way but I think there's room to enjoy skaters from every era for what they brought to the table.

 

[On My Own]

"look how far we've come and how bad everyone was back then"

"imagine if they could do quads"

Good thing I think neither thing then?

I don't think in the era before late 80s, athleticism or artistry was equal to post-late-1980s. And athleticism isn't just jumps, good choreography is inherently athletic and artistic. If people think what Kwan did is equal in terms of quality to what Henie did or that they can both be appreciated in the same way, well they're not fully appreciating Kwan.

If someone thought my post was supposed to be insulting, well I said it on another thread and I'll say it here again - that's not my problem. It's literally the unpopular opinions thread, at that.

ETA:

Here's Henie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjnfkEOpsE&ab_channel=varadero1839

Here's a Kwan exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKi_wHwImL0&ab_channel=Olympics

To me, there's absolutely no comparison whatsoever.

 

[orbitz]

Of the US women, Nancy Kerrigan had the best spiral, not Kristi, not Michelle, not Sasha

If you have to hold your leg up with your hand then does it really count? Hmm....
Kristi's spiral was merely adequate and no where in the league of Michelle, Sasha, Bobeck.

 

[bardtoob]

Compulsory figures would not have died out if Gabby Seyfert had stayed in competition through the 1972 Olympics.

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The podium probably would have been:

1. Seyfert
2. Magnussen
3. Schuba

Rounded out by:

4. Holmes
5. Lynn

Schuba, Holmes, and Lynn would have been panned as deficient specialists.

 

[On My Own]

Compulsory figures would not have died out if Gabby Seyfert had stayed in competition through the 1972 Olympics.

Well some things happen for the good.

Practising figures required loads of ice time, and the associated expenses would have been huge. It probably opened up the sport to many who weren't otherwise able to afford it - and it's still so expensive even now.

 

[flyingsit]

If you have to hold your leg up with your hand then does it really count? Hmm....
Kristi's spiral was merely adequate and no where in the league of Michelle, Sasha, Bobeck.

The difference is the back position -- Kerrigan's torso was much more upright and that's why she needed to hold her leg. None of the others did spirals in that position (other than Jenny Kirk, who also held her leg the same way).

 

[Vagabond]

Compulsory figures would not have died out if Gabby Seyfert had stayed in competition through the 1972 Olympics.

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The podium probably would have been:

1. Seyfert
2. Magnussen
3. Schuba

Rounded out by:

4. Holmes
5. Lynn

Schuba, Holmes, and Lynn would have been panned as deficient specialists.

I don't think this is correct.

https://www.olympedia.org/results/13302 (This is for 1972.)

Each judge ranked each skater by Ordinal Placement from first through last place. The Ordinal Placement for each judge was based on Total Points awarded by that judge to the skaters. The points were based on 50% for Compulsory Figures and 50% for Free Skating, with the tiebreaker for each judge being Compulsory Figure Points. Final placement was determined by a Majority Placement rule. Thus, if a skater was ranked first by a majority of the judges, that skater was placed first overall, and the process was repeated for each place. Ties broken by a Subsequent Majority rule, i.e., if the pairs were ranked for the same position by the same number of judges, Majority Placement for the next higher position for each pair determined who was ranked higher. The tiebreakers were, in order: 1) Number of Majority Placements, 2) Total Ordinals of Majority, 3) Total Ordinals, 4) Total Points, 5) Compulsory Figure Points.

If I understand correctly, Seyfert would have had to earn more total points than Schuba did from at least five of the nine judges to win. This was well nigh impossible.

Schuba's Compulsory Figures at the time were commonly deemed the best ever for any skater, man or woman. This is reflected in the fact that her score in the Compulsory Figures was higher than that of Ondrej Nepela, also one of the best ever, in the Men's competition. There was an enormous gap between her and Karen Magnussen in the final standings even though Schuba finished seventh in the Free Skating and Magnussen finished second. At her best, therefore, Seyfert might have earned the silver medal, but in that case, the order would have been: 1. Schuba, 2. Seyfert, 3. Magnussen, 4. Lynn, and 5. Holmes instead of the actual results, which were:

Pos	Skater	NOC	Maj. Placements	Ordinals	Maj. Ordinals	Points	Judge #1	Judge #2	Judge #3	Judge #4	Judge #5	Judge #6	Judge #7	Judge #8	Judge #9
1	Trixi Schuba	AUT	9×1+	9.0	9.0	2,751.5	308.6 (1)	303.9 (1)	305.9 (1)	303.5 (1)	307.8 (1)	306.1 (1)	308.6 (1)	305.5 (1)	301.6 (1)		Gold
2	Karen Magnussen	CAN	6×2+	23.0	12.0	2,673.2	296.6 (2)	298.9 (2)	295.2 (2)	298.0 (2)	292.3 (4)	305.1 (2)	295.5 (4)	294.2 (3)	297.4 (2)		Silver
3	Janet Lynn	USA	8×3+	27.0	23.0	2,663.1	294.9 (3)	297.5 (3)	294.9 (3)	295.5 (3)	294.3 (3)	294.8 (3)	299.2 (3)	299.5 (2)	292.5 (4)		Bronze
4	Julie Lynn Holmes	USA	6×4+	39.0	20.0	2,627.0	294.7 (4)	289.8 (4)	292.1 (5)	284.9 (7)	296.5 (2)	294.3 (4)	299.7 (2)	293.5 (4)	281.5 (7)

But even if Seyfert had stayed in and had won, a lot would have changed between 1972 and 2024, just as it did in reality. I very much doubt that a Seyfert victory would have saved Compulsory Figures.

 

[olympic]

^So, not to derail the thread, but this Olympic cycle was interesting: Coincidentally, both 1969/70 World Champs in the men and ladies' fields retired at the same time, mid-way thru the cycle.

 

[skateboy]

Schuba's Compulsory Figures at the time were commonly deemed the best ever for any skater, man or woman. This is reflected in the fact that her score in the Compulsory Figures was higher than that of Ondrej Nepela, also one of the best ever, in the Men's competition.

According to Toller Cranston, not only was Schuba miles better at figures than any woman or man ever, Toller claimed that she was actually underscored in figures... she really was THAT much better than everyone else and her marks should have been even higher.

 

[Simone411]

If you have to hold your leg up with your hand then does it really count? Hmm....
Kristi's spiral was merely adequate and no where in the league of Michelle, Sasha, Bobeck.

Nancy was nowhere in the league of Karen Chen and Sarah Hughes, either. Tara Lipinski also held her leg up with her hand.

 

[bardtoob]

If I understand correctly, Seyfert would have had to earn more total points than Schuba did from at least five of the nine judges to win. This was well nigh impossible.

Schuba's Compulsory Figures at the time were commonly deemed the best ever for any skater, man or woman. This is reflected in the fact that her score in the Compulsory Figures was higher than that of Ondrej Nepela, also one of the best ever, in the Men's competition. There was an enormous gap between her and Karen Magnussen in the final standings even though Schuba finished seventh in the Free Skating and Magnussen finished second. At her best, therefore, Seyfert might have earned the silver medal, but in that case, the order would have been: 1. Schuba, 2. Seyfert, 3. Magnussen, 4. Lynn, and 5. Holmes instead of the actual results, which were:

But even if Seyfert had stayed in and had won, a lot would have changed between 1972 and 2024, just as it did in reality. I very much doubt that a Seyfert victory would have saved Compulsory Figures.

Yeah, yeah, well Gabby had the best Skate Mom ever while Trixie only had the best compulsory figures ever ? . . .

 

[On My Own]

Is it possible to play counterfactuals to quite this degree?

 

[Coco]

Tara Lipinski also held her leg up with her hand.

Excuse me, but Tara did a difficult variation where she held it with her hand and then let go, modifying the leg position slightly but maintaining the spiral.

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[DORISPULASKI]

According to Toller Cranston, not only was Schuba miles better at figures than any woman or man ever, Toller claimed that she was actually underscored in figures... she really was THAT much better than everyone else and her marks should have been even higher.

AFAIR Toller said that Trixie's figures were so good and so exactly traced that on the third repetition of the figure, she would offset her trace slightly so her blade would not get caught in the trace she had already carved so deeply in the previous two traces.

 

[once_upon]

My unpopular opinion - I can't tell you whose jumps or spins or spirals or patterns or lifts are the best or the worst. I can't tell you what years or what music or or event or what city a certain skate happened. I can't tell you the color of any medal or if someone won a novice, junior or senior event. I might be able to identify a costume if it was tragically horrible

But I can tell you if I like that skate during a competition - maybe I'm the only one or I'm in a crowd.

 

[Simone411]

Excuse me, but Tara did a difficult variation where she held it with her hand and then let go, modifying the leg position slightly but maintaining the spiral.

I don't mean to sound rude, be rude or anything similar to that, but Tara did hold her leg up with her hand during her free skate at the 1998 Olympics.

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youtu.be

 

[Coco]

Lol @Simone411 we posted the same clip. She holds it up, then let's go and keeps her leg up there. This would have counted as a difficult variation in IJS. It's different from letting the free leg drop after you let go of it.

 

[Sparks]

Spirals shouldn't just be judged on the leg position. They should be judged on edge quality.

 

[gkelly]

Whatever other strengths or weaknesses you see, this spiral is held long enough that you can see the pattern on the ice that gives it the name "spiral"