Unpopular Opinions

[sheetz]

I think Tony Wheeler did an exercise a couple years ago as to whether the Team Event final standings would change using either

• 10-8-6-4-2 point allocation in the long program
• using pure raw scores from both segments and summing them all together.

The order of finish for the medalists didn't change for 2018 using either alternative scenario (although OAR would have been ahead of Canada after the short program segment summing segment scores)

I haven't looked at the results closely but it's very likely team strategy would have changed if the scoring were different.

 

[tony]

I think Tony Wheeler did an exercise a couple years ago as to whether the Team Event final standings would change using either

• 10-8-6-4-2 point allocation in the long program
• using pure raw scores from both segments and summing them all together.

The order of finish for the medalists didn't change for 2018 using either alternative scenario (although OAR would have been ahead of Canada after the short program segment summing segment scores)

Yes, I suggested since 2014 that the points should change to be 10 down to 2 in the LP, but I believe the overall results wouldn’t have changed (I remember someone else did the math there, not me). I do agree that the team event strategy may have changed with the modified point scoring, because of the bigger chance at movement in the standings.

I’m not a fan of the raw score idea, though. I’d prefer starting from 0 for the top 5 teams making the LP over that.

 

[screech]

Maybe not raw scores, something more than just points for rankings should be used. When you look at swimming, it's time that counts. Not whichever country placed first in each leg of the relay. Then you'd get a case where a country may have the fastest time but place 3rd overall or something.
Maybe if it were raw scores but factored or something, to make the spread a bit smaller? No matter what you think about deservedness of the scores, someone like Valieva would win the event alone with her FP scores being 40 points higher than the next highest country. But if each score were factored somehow, itwould still have Russia clearly ahead but with a bit of a smaller spread. It's not fair for her to receive just 1 point more than her next closest competitor, where her actual score is so much stronger.

 

[misskarne]

I know people were very angry when Jeremy Abbott called himself one, but despite how he skated and placing 7th in the SP portion of the TE, he did still place higher than Paul Bonifacio Parkinson and Italy was the 4th place finisher in the Team Event.

I think people were more angry that Abbott referred to the team event as "just a warmup" and his own slop-fest performance as "a positive step" and then had the audacity to refer to himself as an Olympic bronze medallist. One or the other, it can't be "just a warmup" and at the same time something you won a medal in.

That said I also don't shy away from owning that I'm also still cross about it for other, uber-related reasons.

 

[tony]

I think people were more angry that Abbott referred to the team event as "just a warmup" and his own slop-fest performance as "a positive step" and then had the audacity to refer to himself as an Olympic bronze medallist. One or the other, it can't be "just a warmup" and at the same time something you won a medal in.

That said I also don't shy away from owning that I'm also still cross about it for other, uber-related reasons.

But this has been cleared up recently, by the very reporter who asked him something that led to his answer, as not really being as it seemed.

In the end, he still is an Olympic bronze medalist and I’m going back to an earlier thought in the thread by saying that only (some) hardcore skating fans are going to continue having a difficult time comparing those team medals to individual medals. But for the rest of the world, they won’t think any different of it just as they don’t in gymnastics or swimming or any other event in which teams of competitors have gotten medals for a long time.

 

[canbelto]

I think uber fights are so dumb. Just like your favorite skaters.

 

[Sarrie]

I love a man bun.

 

[bladesofgorey]

I love a man bun.

I completely agree, I can't fathom why it's so widely disliked here on men but not on women. (lol no I can).

 

[Lemonade20]

Only Jason Momoa can pull off a man bun

 

[escaflowne9282]

I love a man bun.

On some people it actually doesn't look bad. I actually thought Nikolaj Sorensen looked very good with one and it suited the Spanish Caravan FD . Then he cut it before Worlds in 2019
Other times it just seems to imitate the greasy slicked back look which only some men can really pull off IMHO.

 

[Andora]

I guess we're still working on taking the good with the bad in the Team Event, eh?

What's good for the gymnastics goose is good for the figure skating gander. Though even I have a hard time with Kevin Reynolds, Olympic medalist.

On some people it actually doesn't look bad. I actually thought Nikolaj Sorensen looked very good with one and it suited the Spanish Caravan FD . Then he cut it before Worlds in 2019
Other times it just seems to imitate the greasy slicked back look which only some men can really pull off IMHO.

I couldn't agree more.

Both about Mr. Danadian and the downside to man buns.

 

[hanca]

I remember after 2014 people moaning specifically about Kaetlyn Osmond describing herself as an Olympic medallist on her social media handles. While she had been the weakest member of the Canadian team, she still went out and skated 2 programs and contributed to the result.

I don’t think I would have a problem with someone like Kaetlyn Osmond having olympic medal because she was a reasonable skater at 2014 (she had 8th place at worlds the previous season). But I would think it is ridiculous if Japanese pair Takahashi/Kihara got a medal at the Olympics in 2014 (if very good men and ladies and an average dance team managed to earn the medal for Takahashi/Kihara). Takahashi/Kihara were 17th and 19th at worlds and 18 in the individual event at the Olympics. Does a pair like this really deserve olympic medal? I would feel the same if Suzaki/Kihara got a medal in 2018. They placed 21st in their individual event and 24th at worlds. I don’t think skaters with this level deserve a medal. On the other hand, I would be quite happy if Miura/Kihara got the medal from team event at this coming Olympics. They have been 10th at worlds last season, so that makes me feel that they would at least contribute towards their medal.

Just to clarify, I have nothing at all against Japanese skaters and nothing against Kihara. I used this example because that’s the best example of how country could be very good in a few events (traditionally Japan in ladies and pairs) and not so good in other events (in the past in pairs) and yet they could have potentially got the medal. I am glad that the situation is improving in Japanese pairs and I am fan of this partnership with Miura. They were on fire in their GP events! I loved their skating!

 

[Japanfan]

But I would think it is ridiculous if Japanese pair Takahashi/Kihara got a medal at the Olympics in 2014 (if very good men and ladies and an average dance team managed to earn the medal for Takahashi/Kihara).

Well, its the team event. If there is one weak link, that skater/team can still get a medal.

 

[sap5]

I don’t think I would have a problem with someone like Kaetlyn Osmond having olympic medal because she was a reasonable skater at 2014 (she had 8th place at worlds the previous season). But I would think it is ridiculous if Japanese pair Takahashi/Kihara got a medal at the Olympics in 2014 (if very good men and ladies and an average dance team managed to earn the medal for Takahashi/Kihara). Takahashi/Kihara were 17th and 19th at worlds and 18 in the individual event at the Olympics. Does a pair like this really deserve olympic medal? I would feel the same if Suzaki/Kihara got a medal in 2018. They placed 21st in their individual event and 24th at worlds. I don’t think skaters with this level deserve a medal. On the other hand, I would be quite happy if Miura/Kihara got the medal from team event at this coming Olympics. They have been 10th at worlds last season, so that makes me feel that they would at least contribute towards their medal.

Just to clarify, I have nothing at all against Japanese skaters and nothing against Kihara. I used this example because that’s the best example of how country could be very good in a few events (traditionally Japan in ladies and pairs) and not so good in other events (in the past in pairs) and yet they could have potentially got the medal. I am glad that the situation is improving in Japanese pairs and I am fan of this partnership with Miura. They were on fire in their GP events! I loved their skating!

Yes, they do. It's an Olympic event, and if they meet the qualification rules, get on the team, and skate as required, then if Japan wins a team medal, then they deserve a medal because they helped win it.

 

[hanca]

Yes, they do. It's an Olympic event, and if they meet the qualification rules, get on the team, and skate as required, then if Japan wins a team medal, then they deserve a medal because they helped win it.

That’s your opinion; it is not mine. Maybe that’s why I wrote it in unpopular opinions.

 

[hanca]

Well, its the team event. If there is one weak link, that skater/team can still get a medal.

I know that the ‘weak link’ can get medal, thanks to the achievements of others, but I don’t think this is right. For example, Japanese lady number 4 is still a very high level skater, who won’t get to the Olympics only because there is a very high level of competition within the women’s category in Japan. So she will be without any chance of competing at the Olympics and without any olympic medal, despite having international score of over 200 and despite being perhaps in the top ten (or could be even be in the top six) in the world. And then a Japanese pair skater could get a medal from the Olympics even though they are not able to even get to the FS at worlds? (not talking about Miura/Kihara, but it could have easily happened with Kihara’s previous partners). Even though they are scoring less than many juniors pairs? I am sorry but there is something wrong with that. It does lower the value of the medals, if someone else could potentially earn it for them. Everyone is comparing it to relay, but if you have one completely underaverage competitor within the relay team, the others will never be so great to earn the medals despite the poor performance of that one weak link. Whereas in skating, if one skater/team are completely useless, the way the marking is done, three very good skaters/couples/pairs could make up for a bad performance of one of them. And that means that one could be as bad as skating at an average junior pair level rather than elite pair level. I think that really doesn’t deserve olympic medal.

 

[sap5]

That’s your opinion; it is not mine. Maybe that’s why I wrote it in unpopular opinions.

Whoops! Forgot I was in the unpopular opinions thread. The TE is also being discussed elsewhere, so I thought I was in that thread. Carry on.

 

[screech]

The fact of the matter is that most countries (bar Russia) have at least one skater/team that is not at the same placement level as the rest of their team. USA for example, is a medal favourite in 2 of the individual events (men & dance), and has legitimate top 5 potential in another (ladies), whereas their pairs teams are not quite at par, results-wise, with the rest. However, does that mean that the US pairs team(s) don't deserve the gold or silver they're likely to receive in the TE?

Then again, there's always that skater who comes out and shocks everyone in the TE. Like Kevin Reynolds almost winning the TE free program in 2014 (0.28 behind Plushenko). Or Alexei Bychenko coming 2nd in the TE short program in 2019.
For all we know (and I hope), there'll be someone who we don't expect, who's never been in the conversation much, who just comes out and wows in the TE.

 

[hanca]

The fact of the matter is that most countries (bar Russia) have at least one skater/team that is not at the same placement level as the rest of their team. USA for example, is a medal favourite in 2 of the individual events (men & dance), and has legitimate top 5 potential in another (ladies), whereas their pairs teams are not quite at par, results-wise, with the rest. However, does that mean that the US pairs team(s) don't deserve the gold or silver they're likely to receive in the TE?

Then again, there's always that skater who comes out and shocks everyone in the TE. Like Kevin Reynolds almost winning the TE free program in 2014 (0.28 behind Plushenko). Or Alexei Bychenko coming 2nd in the TE short program in 2019.
For all we know (and I hope), there'll be someone who we don't expect, who's never been in the conversation much, who just comes out and wows in the TE.

I would make a rule that if a skate/pair/team doesn’t contribute adequately to the total points of the team, they shouldn’t get the medal. So those three strong skaters/pairs/couples would get it, but the weaker link wouldn’t. Tough, perhaps, but if someone didn’t contribute enough towards their joint results, why should three skaters or teams earn medal for the fourth one who didn’t earn it and doesn’t deserve it?

Yes, I am aware that this may be unpopular opinion. Just to remind you that we are in unpopular opinions thread.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

I would make a rule that if a skate/pair/team doesn’t contribute adequately to the total points of the team, they shouldn’t get the medal. So those three strong skaters/pairs/couples would get it, but the weaker link wouldn’t. Tough, perhaps, but if someone didn’t contribute enough towards their joint results, why should three skaters or teams earn medal for the fourth one who didn’t earn it and doesn’t deserve it?

Yes, I am aware that this may be unpopular opinion. Just to remind you that we are in unpopular opinions thread.

And, in your unpopular opinion, what would be the definition of "adequately"?

 

[hanca]

And, in your unpopular opinion, what would be the definition of "adequately"?

Well, if they all contributed the same, they would all contribute a quarter of the total points the team earned,(or if a category is split - different person does SP and FS, then one eight each of them). Of course we can’t expect everyone to gain the same amount of points. But if a skater/pair/dance couple do both SP and FS and contribute less than one eight of the total points that the team earned together, or if someone does just one event and earn less than one sixteenth of the total points, then this skater/pair/couple is clearly not pulling their weight! So I would say, less than a half of the equal share means that someone else is doing for them more than a half of their job! I can’t see my employer being happy if someone had to do more than a half of my job!

 

[sheetz]

What if the team event skaters must score at least the Olympic TES minimum for their portion of the event in order to receive team points?

 

[Lemonade20]

What if the team event skaters must score at least the Olympic TES minimum for their portion of the event in order to receive team points?

I like it!

 

[Japanfan]

I would make a rule that if a skate/pair/team doesn’t contribute adequately to the total points of the team, they shouldn’t get the medal. So those three strong skaters/pairs/couples would get it, but the weaker link wouldn’t. Tough, perhaps, but if someone didn’t contribute enough towards their joint results, why should three skaters or teams earn medal for the fourth one who didn’t earn it and doesn’t deserve it?

That would never work - it would undermine the concept of the team event. The fourth one who didn't earn it benefits from being part of the team. There are countless examples outside of FS where this is the case.

 

[briancoogaert]

Really, the "this skater won an Olympic medal at the TE but doesn't deserve it" bothers me !
If they won it with their Team, with the rules, fair and square, they deserve it, even if they didn't skate really well.
I mean, in an ice dance team, there's always a better skater, but both deserve the medal equally !
My problem is more about the difference between an individual medal, and a team medal.

 

[Japanfan]

My problem is more about the difference between an individual medal, and a team medal.

Could you explain further?

 

[hanca]

Really, the "this skater won an Olympic medal at the TE but doesn't deserve it" bothers me !
If they won it with their Team, with the rules, fair and square, they deserve it, even if they didn't skate really well.
I mean, in an ice dance team, there's always a better skater, but both deserve the medal equally !
My problem is more about the difference between an individual medal, and a team medal.

Sure, but if there is a skater who is only as good as juniors skating with a brilliant skater, the pair or ice dancers would never win an Olympic medal because they would be beaten by the rest of the field. Whereas in the team event if you have a pair or ice dancers who are worst than average juniors, the other three categories still can do all the work and push this unskilled team to the olympic medal. That’s like getting medal at Olympic for a long distance run, where I wouldn’t be running- someone would be carrying me for more than a half of the way.

 

[Japanfan]

Sure, but if there is a skater who is only as good as juniors skating with a brilliant skater, the pair or ice dancers would never win an Olympic medal because they would be beaten by the rest of the field. Whereas in the team event if you have a pair or ice dancers who are worst than average juniors, the other three categories still can do all the work and push this unskilled team to the olympic medal. That’s like getting medal at Olympic for a long distance run, where I wouldn’t be running- someone would be carrying me for more than a half of the way.

And the unskilled still deserves a medal according to the rules.

Think of another example, the relay in speed skating or short track. One member of the team goes down early and ends up way behind the pack, but the other three push though (not sure that is possible in this event) and end up winning. Person who went down still gets a medal.

People gain benefits from being in team, but also have disadvantages.

Imagine that one skater in a team of four at the TE is particularly talented, possibly the most talented skater in the film. The other three team members are sub-par, so the team of no chance of winning a medal.

Would you want to give the one talented skater a medal anyway?

From what I can see, you are arguing against the team event.

You can't pick and choose who gets a medal on a team - if you did, I don't think there would be much interest in the team event.

 

[antmanb]

If it was truly a proper event the Team Event would include all the countries not just the top 10. I've never liked the introduction of the team event and since it only actually happens at the Olympics it is completely made up for the Olympics and not a part of ISU competition anywhere else. I'm glad the skaters value it and enjoy it but I don't consider the Team Event medallists as "real medalists".

 

[gkelly]

Sure, but if there is a skater who is only as good as juniors skating with a brilliant skater, the pair or ice dancers would never win an Olympic medal because they would be beaten by the rest of the field. Whereas in the team event if you have a pair or ice dancers who are worst than average juniors, the other three categories still can do all the work and push this unskilled team to the olympic medal.

How would you define "worse than average juniors"? Program components in the 4s?