Underrotation vs. Prerotation: which is worse?

[skateboy]

I haven't seen a thread devoted to this topic and thought it might merit discussion.

As we know, URs can be punished harshly, leading to possible downgrades, negative GOEs and a loss of points. Fair enough, but why aren't prerotations treated the same way? An example: Shoma Uno's 4Flip. I yield to no one in my admiration for Shoma as a skater, but this jump is for him is consistently prerotated more than a half turn (sometimes 3/4) and off of a flat blade. But when he lands it, it's flat back and he gets positive GOEs. Uno is not the only one who prerotates, of course.

I am not talking about small pre-"hooks," such as on a loop or an axel. This can be necessary to get the "oomph" that the jump needs and, besides, many skaters land fully rotated from the point the blade leaves the ice (after the slight on-ice rotation). So, in that case, there is no actual pre-"rotation."

For me (I used to judge roller skating competitions and was a longtime competitor), prerotation is more of a "sin" than underrotation. I'm not endorsing or forgiving URs, but a prerotation means that the skater has no real mastery of the jump, before it even gets off the ground. And it is even tougher to break that habit, than a tendency to underrotate.

So why is prerotation not punished at least as harshly as an underrotation?

Curious to know what you all think.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I think both should be equally weighted.

 

[Marco]

Other than Amber Corwin whose 3toe3toe was famously called a 2toe2toe in the earlier version of COP, I don't recall pre-rotations being penalized much. Look at Kimmie Meissner's 3/3s at 2006 Worlds!

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

The smartest solution is to decrease the current underrotation penalty, and introduce a new penalty for prerotation.

 

[Orm Irian]

Other than Amber Corwin whose 3toe3toe was famously called a 2toe2toe in the earlier version of COP, I don't recall pre-rotations being penalized much. Look at Kimmie Meissner's 3/3s at 2006 Worlds!

Donovan Carillo had at least one jump downgraded as a result of pre-rotation at Four Continents 2018, I remember that. My understanding is that the technical panel bases pre-rotation calls on where the skater's weight is. If the weight is majority off the blade within the specified limits and the blade is 'trailing' behind the skater without fully leaving the ice, it's not called because the jump's not exactly flawed, just ugly; if the weight is majority on the blade while the first rotation/part rotation is completed on the ice and it's visible without slow motion replay, that's when it gets called, because then the jump is genuinely incorrect. Real pre-rotation of the kind that gets called seems to be a lot less common than the current buzz around the term suggests, and when it does show up it seems to be an in-the-moment mistake because something goes wrong in the jump set-up, more often than a consistent technique flaw.

 

[skateboy]

Donovan Carillo had at least one jump downgraded as a result of pre-rotation at Four Continents 2018, I remember that.

Interesting to hear. How was it determined that Donovan was dinged for prerotation? As we all know, URs are indicated by < and <<, but I'm not familiar with a symbol that would signify a prerotation.

 

[Orm Irian]

Interesting to hear. How was it determined that Donovan was dinged for prerotation? As we all know, URs are indicated by < and <<, but I'm not familiar with a symbol that would signify a prerotation.

From what I remember, what the video showed was that he landed the jump/s in question backward, without any hooking and without throwing up snow, and had two clear rotations of the body, but the replay showed that his blade didn't fully clear the ice during at least the first half of the first rotation. The same symbols were used as for under-rotation/downgrade. Basically, the audience (and Donovan) had to figure out what the call actually was for afterwards with the aid of the videos.

Given that, even though it's not something that actually happens all that often, they probably should create a specific symbol for it! v and vv, perhaps?

 

[skateboy]

Given that, even though it's not something that actually happens all that often, they probably should create a specific symbol for it! v and vv, perhaps?

Thanks for the response.

Prerotation happens quite often... it's just rarely penalized.

 

[SmallFairy]

One name. Yulia Vorobieva.

@alchemy void @Jeschke

Queen of pre-rotations.

 

[Jeschke]

One name. Yulia Vorobieva.

@alchemy void @Jeschke

Queen of pre-rotations.

I am not sure, if it's still possible, but the remains of our reputation has sunken into the abyss with this post

 

[SmallFairy]

I am not sure, if it's still possible, but the remains of our reputation has sunken into the abyss with this post

Don't worry, our rep was already in ruins. And it wasn't because of me, was it?

 

[briancoogaert]

I think Pre-rotation should be penalized as much as Under-rotation.
IMO, pre-rotation is a sign of bad technique. Judges should penalize Toe-Axel as well.

 

[gkelly]

Toe axel is the kind of prerotation that does get penalized most of the time it happens. The tech panel is allowed to review only in real time, not in slow motion. If the skater turns forward onto the toe pick before taking off (often before even picking in), they'll get called with a downgrade.

All rotational jumps have some initial rotation on the ice before the blade is completely in the air. I don't know of any official definition as to whether a jump other than the toe loop would be considered prerotated enough to generate an underrotation or downgrade call. Probably if the edge is still traveling backward (or forward in the case of an axel) when it leaves the ice, there would be no call; if there's a skid or three turn to the opposite forward edge, then it would be downgraded, but that kind of error is extremely rare at elite levels.

 

[taf2002]

I think pre-rotation is worse because it's an attempt to cheat. Under-rotation just happens either because you muffed the take-off or because you just can't do that many rotations but you were hoping for the best.

 

[bardtoob]

Underrotation and Prerotation means more skating! I don't care as long as the skating is pretty!

If I wanted to measures angles I would use radians.

If wanted to measure a jump, then I would measure distance and height.

 

[Japanfan]

I think pre-rotation is worse because it's an attempt to cheat.

Is it always an attempt to cheat?

I thought it was about technique.

 

[Vagabond]

I do not understand this thread.

Prerotation is a form of underrotation. The jumps are measured by rotations between take off and landing.

ISU Technical Panel Handbook Single Skating 2018-19

Calling under-rotated or downgraded jumps

The TP must call the attempted jump even if it is clear that it is under-rotated or will be downgraded. Both under-rotated and downgraded jumps will count as the intended jump in the application of Well Balanced Program regulations. The quarter/half mark of landing are the border lines to identify cheated jumps. The camera angle is important to consider when deciding upon a cheated jump particularly when the jump is at the opposite end of the rink than the camera. In all doubtful cases the Technical Panel should act to the benefit of the skater.

Under-rotated jumps

A jump will be considered as “Under-rotated” if it has missing rotation of ¼ revolution or more, but less than ½ revolution. An under-rotated jump will be indicated by the Technical Panel to the Judges and in the protocols with a “<” symbol after the element code. Jumps identified as under-rotated will receive reduced base values which are listed in the designated row of the SOV. 2018-2019 20

Downgraded jumps

A jump will be considered as “Downgraded” if it has “missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more”. A downgraded jump will be indicated by the Technical Panel to the Judges and in the protocols with a “<<” symbol after the element code. A jump identified as downgraded will be evaluated using the scale of values (SOV chart) for the element of one rotation less (i.e. a downgraded triple will be evaluated with the scale of values for the corresponding double).

Cheated take-off

A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump. The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).

 

[giselle23]

There is already too much scrutiny of jumps. I believe there is an existing penalty for the so-called toe-axel.
ETA: see Cheated take-off, above.

 

[skateboy]

I do not understand this thread.

Prerotation is a form of underrotation. The jumps are measured by rotations between take off and landing.

I believe you understand this thread just fine, but for some reason have chosen to quibble over semantics.

 

[chantilly]

Any good videos out there of pre rotated jumps.
I find them really hard to
Identify

 

[skateboy]

Any good videos out there of pre rotated jumps.
I find them really hard to
Identify

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQqVreuD7A0

 

[Tahuu]

Any good videos out there of pre rotated jumps.
I find them really hard to
Identify

Similarly for prerotated 4F https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igYBrHVAW2I&t=1s

Essentially there are two types of prerotation. One is at the moment you tap your toepick you have already turned your body forward or sideway. Such prerotation can be caught by the TP without using slo mo and get downgraded.

Another is you tap sideway or backward and then turn your toepick/blade 180-270 deg on the ice and then take off forward. Such prerotation can only be caught by slo mo and won't be downgraded.

Both prerotations have the same number of turns in the air (e.g., 3 rotations for Shoma's 4F). The first type of prerotation is called "cheated" and punished, but the 2nd type is rewarded even though it is a much more real "cheat" in essence.

Allowing the 2nd type of prerotation is unfair to skaters striving to master the correct jumping technique and it is detrimental to the integrity of the sport.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Having been on panels pre-rotations do get called as under-rotations quite often.

For me pre-rotations are a sign of very bad technique which is actually more to do with coaching than the skater. A coaches job is to teach correct technique. A skater can have good technique on an under-rotated jump but they don't get around fully.

So as a skater and judge, pre-rotations are worse.

 

[David21]

Is it always an attempt to cheat?

Yes.

 

[briancoogaert]

Having been on panels pre-rotations do get called as under-rotations quite often.

For me pre-rotations are a sign of very bad technique which is actually more to do with coaching than the skater. A coaches job is to teach correct technique. A skater can have good technique on an under-rotated jump but they don't get around fully.

So as a skater and judge, pre-rotations are worse.

Exactly my thought. And in fact, it should be penalized in the GOE. Even if the skater doesn't get < or <<, a pre-rotation is a sign of very bad technique. And arm in the air or anything else like that don't change the fact that the jump realized is not the jump intended !

 

[Aussie Willy]

I have seen skaters do jumps that could be called as either a loop, flip or lutz, the technique is so poor.

 

[Japanfan]

Yes.

Exactly my thought. And in fact, it should be penalized in the GOE. Even if the skater doesn't get < or <<, a pre-rotation is a sign of very bad technique.

Very bad technique does not = intention to cheat IMO. Unless the developed the technique with the express intention of cheating.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

Well, if pre-rotation is implemented with the current penalty of underrotations, results will be ermm.. interesting to put it as positively as possible. A a lot of skaters are in for a rude awakening.. Trusova and Shcherbakova will both run into problems. Shoma Uno will get the unceremonious Vincent Zhou treatment. Skaters like Tuktamysheva and Tomoe Kawabata will probably start placing much higher, even with multiple falls or other errors.

 

[Aussie Willy]

When it comes to calling pre-rotation, you are definitely looking for something that has obviously turned around on the ice before the skater takes off. Again that comes from bad technique.

All jumps have a degree of pre-rotation on their take off, particularly the edge jumps. What I read here with some comments that they think any degree of pre-rotation, even if a jump is done correctly, should be penalised.

 

[Japanfan]

Do you agree that prerotation is always an attempt to cheat, @Aussie Willy?