Underrotation vs. Prerotation: which is worse?

[skateboy]

Very bad technique does not = intention to cheat IMO. Unless the developed the technique with the express intention of cheating.

I don't think there are many (are there any?) coaches who teach to deliberately prerotate. When I was young and starting to learn an axel and double jumps, I did a fair share of prerotating in practice (not while my coach was watching). As a kid, I just wanted the feeling of landing on one foot and not falling (flip and Lutz were the worst for me). I eventually corrected the technique, but it took awhile to break the bad habit.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Do you agree that prerotation is always an attempt to cheat, @Aussie Willy?

Deliberate or unintentional?

No skater learns to skate to deliberately do the wrong thing. The coaches are the ones who should pick up the problems and correct them. It is like any bad technique in skating. It does annoy me when you do call something that is incorrect so the skater gets the wrong element called, or something else that is identified in the protocol, and then explain to the coach what it is and they just don't get there is anything wrong. That is just ripping off the skater for all the money they pay.

 

[Japanfan]

Deliberate or unintentional?

My question was whether prerotation is always an attempt to cheat. Since I don't know the answer, I don't know whether prerotation is deliberate or unintentional. It would obviously be intentional if cheating is the objective.

@David21 says it is always an attempt to cheat, whereas @skateboy and you indicate that it isn't. My inclination is to agree with you and @skateboy, as learning to something the wrong way is rather counter-intuitive.

 

[bardtoob]

Where Pre-rotation is concerned, only the technical caller can cheat.

 

[Madhatter]

Well, if pre-rotation is implemented with the current penalty of underrotations, results will be ermm.. interesting to put it as positively as possible. A a lot of skaters are in for a rude awakening.. Trusova and Shcherbakova will both run into problems. Shoma Uno will get the unceremonious Vincent Zhou treatment. Skaters like Tuktamysheva and Tomoe Kawabata will probably start placing much higher, even with multiple falls or other errors.

That's why the pre-rotation is overlooked. The big guns of big federations are amongst the worst offenders. The chosen ones will never be called on it, just like they're not called on underrotation half of the time.

 

[gkelly]

The big guns of big federations are amongst the worst offenders.

The worst offenders never make it to the elite levels.

 

[Aussie Willy]

My question was whether prerotation is always an attempt to cheat. Since I don't know the answer, I don't know whether prerotation is deliberate or unintentional. It would obviously be intentional if cheating is the objective.

@David21 says it is always an attempt to cheat, whereas @skateboy and you indicate that it isn't. My inclination is to agree with you and @skateboy, as learning to something the wrong way is rather counter-intuitive.

It is never intentional. It is just bad technique. But skaters don't go out the and do bad jumps on the basis that they think they are going to get away with it. It is more they just want to get out there and skate.

As gkelly said, if they are that bad they will never make it to the elite level.

 

[Tavi]

It is never intentional. It is just bad technique. But skaters don't go out the and do bad jumps on the basis that they think they are going to get away with it. It is more they just want to get out there and skate.

As gkelly said, if they are that bad they will never make it to the elite level.

I think the problem is that some people think all prerotation is a sign of bad technique / a cheated jump, whereas you (and others) believe that some degree of prerotation is normal, but that at some point, it morphs into bad technique. When I see posts criticizing skater x for his/her prerotated jumps, I’m never sure if they’re taking normal prerotation into account.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I think the problem is that some people think all prerotation is a sign of bad technique / a cheated jump, whereas you (and others) believe that some degree of prerotation is normal, but that at some point, it morphs into bad technique. When I see posts criticizing skater x for his/her prerotated jumps, I’m never sure if they’re taking normal prerotation into account.

I agree. I learnt years ago from a coach that the only true fully rotated jump is the lutz because of the edge it comes off. You cannot cheat the take off on a lutz. All other jumps are never a full rotation because of the way they take off.

 

[Rock2]

My understanding is that the technical panel bases pre-rotation calls on where the skater's weight is. If the weight is majority off the blade within the specified limits and the blade is 'trailing' behind the skater without fully leaving the ice, it's not called because the jump's not exactly flawed, just ugly

Thank you for this. Learned something today.
I find axel technique in skating is getting worse and worse in skating.

3A was such a thing of beauty in the days of Boitano and Petrenko.

Now we're seeing the 'new' axel. Aliev is the prototype. He looks like he pre-rotates, but regardless, the technique gets into the rotation right as you leave the ice -- there isn't that split second of lift. Ugly.

 

[briancoogaert]

I agree. I learnt years ago from a coach that the only true fully rotated jump is the lutz because of the edge it comes off. You cannot cheat the take off on a lutz. All other jumps are never a full rotation because of the way they take off.

But you can have a not so good technique on the Lutz by using your ankle to do the outside edge. the edge is not supposed to come only from the ankle, and a lot of skaters don't do the counter rotation with their body and only use their ankle to do the outside edge (a shoes edge in fact).

 

[Orm Irian]

Thank you for this. Learned something today.

Though do bear in mind that that's just information I've picked up from following various discussions on the internet, and to the best of my knowledge none of those conversations have involved judges or technical panel members. I couldn't locate a rules document for you with that detail in it, and the people who actually have to make the calls in real time might well not be looking for the things observers think they're looking for - or might describe it differently.

(I'm not a fan of axels that start revolutions on takeoff either, but I suspect it's a bit of quad technique creeping into axel technique from the 3A backwards, and that was probably an inevitable progression.)

 

[gkelly]

Thank you for this. Learned something today.
I find axel technique in skating is getting worse and worse in skating.

3A was such a thing of beauty in the days of Boitano and Petrenko.

Yes, but how many men were there in the world who could do triple axels at all in those days? A dozen or two? And not all of them were things of beauty.

Now there are probably hundreds.

Technique that works for the exceptionally talented jumpers may not allow the merely good to execute advanced jumps at all.

 

[Aussie Willy]

But you can have a not so good technique on the Lutz by using your ankle to do the outside edge. the edge is not supposed to come only from the ankle, and a lot of skaters don't do the counter rotation with their body and only use their ankle to do the outside edge (a shoes edge in fact).

It is the edge that comes off the ice that gets looked at for rotation.

 

[briancoogaert]

It is the edge that comes off the ice that gets looked at for rotation.

Of course, but it's a forced edge, so not the best kind of edge. I'm sure you see what I mean !

 

[Aussie Willy]

Of course, but it's a forced edge, so not the best kind of edge. I'm sure you see what I mean !

No it is the edge it comes off the ice is what is being looked for when it comes to calling. But doing a lutz you have to force that edge anyway. And there should be a little toe pick mark which looks like a crocodile tooth towards the outside as well as a coach showed me. That is a forced edge.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Similarly for prerotated 4F https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igYBrHVAW2I&t=1s

Essentially there are two types of prerotation. One is at the moment you tap your toepick you have already turned your body forward or sideway. Such prerotation can be caught by the TP without using slo mo and get downgraded.

Another is you tap sideway or backward and then turn your toepick/blade 180-270 deg on the ice and then take off forward. Such prerotation can only be caught by slo mo and won't be downgraded.

Both prerotations have the same number of turns in the air (e.g., 3 rotations for Shoma's 4F). The first type of prerotation is called "cheated" and punished, but the 2nd type is rewarded even though it is a much more real "cheat" in essence.

Allowing the 2nd type of prerotation is unfair to skaters striving to master the correct jumping technique and it is detrimental to the integrity of the sport.

Oh, please can you share more about the two types of pre-rotation? Can you provide video examples? Thanks in advance.